Nate: [00:00:00] when she came back from good dates or a weekend away- Mm ... or whatever it was, like she... Courtney was so much better. So like, and I don't just mean like better as like, "Oh, I'm happy," but like better as a mom, better as a wife, better as a partner. Like she just seemed like her spirit was being filled by being able to do this thing- That it made it easier and easier for me to support.

Speaker: Hi, everyone. Welcome back to Polycurious. I am so excited to be back at it after a little bit of a long, if I'm honest, summer break. I was camping, I was traveling. I went to Morocco, I went to Greece. I started dating someone new, which I will tell you more about hopefully in an upcoming episode about my non-monogamous journey.

And I can't be more excited to be back. I have recorded a [00:01:00] lot of amazing conversations, which I will be rolling out as usual every couple of weeks. And also, as you might have noticed, I've been putting out my bonus content, which I was originally releasing on my Patreon. Now it's available on Spotify for only, I think it's $4.99 a month.

You can access dozens and dozens of episodes that I recorded on all sorts of topics, including bonus content from today's episode. so let me tell you about my guest today. I was actually really excited

When I found them,

 because just like me, they are in a mono-poly relationship, meaning a relationship in which one partner is monogamous and the other one is polyamorous. And also, like in my relationship,

The person that is non-monogamous is the man, Nate, and the person that [00:02:00] is polyamorous is the woman, Courtney.

Courtney and Nate have a YouTube channel. It is called The Mono-Poly Couple, and in it they dive into different topics. I watched a few of their episodes and I found it really interesting. I will of course link that to the show notes. So if you are someone who has maybe hesitated whether you want non-monogamy, but you have a partner that wants that, or you are the maybe the partner that wants that and your partner is a little bit more hesitant, I think you are going to get a lot out of this episode.

 and if you're non-monogamous and you have a partner who is monogamous, please send this episode to them.

Because Nate and Courtney take us throughThe journey of both of them coming to terms with Courtney's identity as a polyamorous person. And let me tell you, he did not react well when she initially brought it up, and it [00:03:00] took therapy, and it took a lot of missteps, and it took a lot of emotional processing and changing in a lot of ways, to get to a place where they feel positively about their relationship.

And a couple of the things that I would love for you to get out of the episode

two things. One is jealousy is not something to be fixed, it's something to be felt. And I've talked about this in my episode about regulating jealousy and difficult emotions, and on my jealousy guide. I will link those resources in the show notes for you.

But basically, I feel like a lot of people are in a fight against jealousy, and a lot of the times you just gotta chill. You just gotta let it be, and with time it will get easier, and that was Nate's experience.

 the moment that they stopped trying to fix Nate's jealousy and they just let it be, things got a lot better. And also, as [00:04:00] they dove deeper into non-monogamy and Courtney started feeling more like herself, going on dates, feeling the freedom to interact and love different people,

She came home a better partner. She came home a better person, and Nate could see that. And not only did Courtney become a better person through this experience, but also Nate himself says that he wasn't being the greatest partner to Courtney before they opened up. And as Courtney described it, now he is a superstar husband.

So obviously, they don't have a perfect relationship, but non-monogamy has tremendously, tremendously improved their relationship.

 after being over two decades together, And while I truly believe that non-monogamy is not for everyone, this is one more example of how

It can really help long-term relationships if there's a strong foundation [00:05:00] and if, like in Nate's case, the monogamous person is willing to work at it, even if initially they were very hesitant

I think that you are going to relate to a lot of what was shared in this episode. Again, how to overcome jealousy. but also Courtney's experiences dating monogamous men and how that led to a lot of heartbreak, and also just dating men that maybe weren't worth her time or that just didn't have the communication skills.

And I can tell you in my personal journey, just like in Courtney's,I've gone through so many different types of men and so many different types of honestly hurtful experiences. And I've come to realize that what's best for me is to date people who are in non-monogamous relationships, people who are partnered.

 and similarly, Courtney has now found a partner that is married just like her. And [00:06:00] while, as she explains, it's not perfect,

 she has reached a level of stability like never before. She's feeling a lot more positive about her non-monogamous journey since she found someone who was also partnered.

Courtney is a coach. She is an author. She's got two books.

One is called Not Tonight, Honey: Why Women Actually Don't Want Sex, and it's all about women's relationship to pleasure and their disconnection from it. She also has a memoir on her experience as a non-monogamous person in a marriage with a monogamous partner and everything that she's learned.

The name of her book is Opened, and I will make sure to also link that in the show notes if you wanna read her books.

lastly, she offers retreats for women who might be a little disconnected from their body,

so if you're [00:07:00] interested in learning more, you can find Courtney's website in the show notes

 Okay, without further ado, here is my interview with Courtney and Nate, the mono-poly couple​

Courtney: Courtney and Nate, welcome to Polycurious. Thank you so much for joining me today

Thank you for having us. Yeah, it's great

Fer: yeah, I'm super excited to talk to you both. I've, watched some of your videos on YouTube, and, you know, it's interesting that we hadn't found each other earlier because I'm also in a mono-poly relationship. And while I found some couples,

 I feel like most of the times the person that's monogamous, you know, maybe has had an experience or wants to have an experience and such. So it's, kind of unique to have, someone like Nate or my partner Seth, who are just like, "You know, this is, like, just not my priority. I'm happy with the way [00:08:00] things are."

 so I'm excited to dive into this 'cause I'm sure that there's a lot of people who might feel that way, right? so perhaps, you know, let's start from the beginning. tell me, you know, how long have you been together?

I, I believe you're married and you've been together for a while. And when and why did this conversation of opening up come about?

Courtney: well, we've been together for 23 years, married for over 21, and I asked for an open marriage on our 17th wedding anniversary, so, a little over four years ago. Mm. Why did I ask? That is the question. That is the question. Um, so essentially I saw non-monogamy as the salvation and saving to our marriage that I didn't feel seen or, like, valued in. And, I mean, Nate was a great provider and we had, a great foundation as parents and similar values, but in terms of, like, a romantic relationship, it just wasn't a priority and it wasn't going well when we [00:09:00] tried to, or I tried to connect with him in certain ways. And so I thought, "Well, I'm tired of asking him to go to therapy. Let's just ask for an open marriage instead."

Fer: I don't know if this might be going too deep too quick, but could you tell me a little bit more about, like, what had you, sounds like a little dissatisfied in, in your marriage in terms of the romantic connection? Which I'm sure that, you know, happens to a lot of people who have kids who have been together for a long time, right?

So I'm sure that a lot of people might find themselves in that situation. But in your particular marriage, what was it that you felt like, "Oh my God," like, "This is not going great"?

Nate: I would say that I... This, this is what, you know, my thoughts. I was present, but I was not attentive. I was not sort of meeting all of Courtney's needs. And I understand that no one can meet every person's needs 100%, but I did a really good job of being, you know, professional and, a pretty good job of being a [00:10:00] dad. I was a provider, like Courtney said. Yeah. But I didn't do a good job of, like, seeing Courtney and seeing what she needed and, and therefore I wasn't there for her a lot of the time. So, and not just physically, but also emotionally. And so- Yeah ... there was a lot of areas where I wasn't present for her. and we'll probably talk later about how she thinks she was probably polyamorous, you know- Yeah

her whole life. But at that time, I think the way that she, to, you know, probably felt very neglected- Yeah ... and felt alone in a lot of ways, even though I was physically present. And on the outside, it probably looked like a normal, you know- Yeah two parents, three kids kind of relationship. But there was a lot missing, I think, in terms of her needs getting met.

Courtney: Yeah. And not just physically, but I think in a lot of ways. Yeah.

So sounds like it was kind of maybe, you know, Courtney wanting to engage in, like, deeper conversation or something, or wanting to have sex or wanting to go on dates, and you kind of being, like, tuned out on your phone, busy with work, busy with the [00:11:00] kids, like, not really paying attention to her. Yeah, that's, that's exactly- Very accurate. ... exactly how it went.

Fer: Yeah, again, like very relatable. you know, I think it's very easy to get caught up, especially with kids. How old were your, your kids at, at the time you, started the conversation about opening up?

Courtney: nine, 11, and 13

Fer: Okay, yeah. so, you know, at that point I, I assume it's like, okay, they're, getting a little bit older, a little bit more independent. there's space to even, consider, you know, opening up their relationship. So Courtney, where did you hear about, non-monogamy, and also why did you think that that would fix it?

Yeah. So I was first exposed to non-monogamy in graduate school. my first master's is in education and human sexuality, and so I went to school with a lot of very diverse individuals. And that was the first time, 'cause I'd grown up in the church, and so that was the first time I had really been exposed to different relationship [00:12:00] orientations, sexual orientations, all of the things.

Courtney: by the time that we had hit the 17-year mark, I had been a- like begging him for years to go to therapy, to do-- go to, you know, marriage workshops, to read the relationship books, and he was like, "Nah, I'm good." Like, "I'm happy. I don't, I don't wanna change." Like, and so I wanted to keep my family together, and I didn't want a divorce. I didn't wanna throw the baby out with the bathwater. I still very much loved him. really enjoyed being with him, but I also wanted to get my needs met, so I saw it as being a win-win

Fer: I actually have an episode with another couple that's called Non-Monogamy Saved Our Marriage or something. And I feel like people always talk about how non-monogamy breaks relationships, and that also happens, for sure. But I, uh, actually think that it can really help for long-term relationships, you know? I, I think similarly to you, in my relationship with Seth, like I feel very fulfilled in some ways.

 but especially sexually, I feel like I have more different needs than he does. And [00:13:00] I feel like if I didn't have that outlet of non-monogamy, I'd not be sure if I could be with him forever, right? But, but now I'm like, well, I can be with him for a long time because I have an outlet to meet those needs, right?

 so how did you react, react, Nate, when Courtney brought up this, this conversation? And, and also, how did you bring it up, Courtney? Like, were you like, you know, explaining it in this way, "Hey, you're not meeting my needs. I want them, I want them to be met elsewhere," 'cause that probably didn't go well

Courtney: No. I mean, it didn't go well anyways, but, um, so I-- Every year in our, at our anniversary dinner, we go through, like, a relationship check- checkup, check-in that we do. Yeah. And so one of the areas was, um, sexual, the sexual area, and, I just blurted out w- "Would you be open to having a threesome?" Even though I didn't want one, but that was, like, my way of just trying to get that, like, in- into the conversation [00:14:00] of... Yeah. What did you say?

Nate: I- It did not go well, initially. Mm. For sure. Because I, like, you know, like we talked about, I was like, "This is fine. Everything's fine." Like, my needs are being met. I have, you know, a, a partner. I have a wife. I have kids. I have a house. I have, you know- Yeah ... kinda checking all the boxes. And I didn't know if I was happy, but I was content enough, you know? and so for me, I was like, you know, I, I said some mean things probably- Yeah ... and was very angry. I just, I didn't understand. I was... The answer was no, right? That was my answer at the time. Yep. and I also thought that, you know, Courtney was, you know... The best way to put it, I guess, was, like, you know, a whore essentially- um, at the time. You know, like, you know, that she just wanted to go have sex with random guys- Mm ... and that she didn't really care what happened to me- Mm-hmm ... or our family, and that's kind of... That was my [00:15:00] initial thought. obviously things have changed significantly since then.

Mm-hmm. but I was very angry. I was very confused and very hurt that she would wanna do that. Like, what was wrong with me? What was wrong with our marriage that she would need to go try to find someone else? And so I was just very confused and angry, I think, at the- Yeah ... at the start, so.

Fer: Yeah. I appreciate that you are honest and you were like, "Honestly, I thought she was, you know, a whore,

Nate: And how did you go from really judging that and feeling like, "Okay, this, there's something wrong to becoming a little bit more accepting? Like, what happened afterwards?

So Courtney gave me lots of time. She wasn't like, "I'm non-monogamous now," and then was, like, dating somebody n- the next week. Yeah, no. it was sort of a six-month-ish period where she sent me resources and podcasts and things to listen to, and we talked a lot. we started therapy. Yep. That helped ... I started individual therapy, and so we started working through some of those issues and, and having someone who was objective kinda help us talk through our feelings and what [00:16:00] we each needed from the relationship and what we weren't getting from the relationship. And over time, the biggest thing that Courtney did for me was reassure me that it wasn't my fault. It's that this was who she was, and it was a part of her, and that I could've been, you know, the best husband in the world, and she would still feel the same way. Mm. And over time, that sort of, again, helped me to understand that, you know, obviously I needed to change, and we needed to change, but that she wasn't trying to replace me.

 It's more that, you know, she has the capacity to love more than one person at a time. I don't know if I have that. I don't think I do, romantically at least. Mm-hmm. Um, and so that's just who she is. So it took, you know, six months plus, a lot of talking, a lot of tears- Of course ... a lot of, you know, discussion. But the-- I think the biggest two things were she didn't jump right into a relationship, she gave me time to transition, and that she continued to reassure me that, I was still important in her, our lives and to her. but she just needed, again, to [00:17:00] be kind of who she was authentically kinda going forward, so.

Fer:  Yeah, you know, it, I think it's a tricky thing to really get to understand sometimes. Because on the one hand, yes, you could have been the perfect husband and she would have maybe still wanted non-monogamy. But on the other hand, as we were talking about, there were also things that were lacking in your relationship, right?

So, so how did you kind of make sense of that, of yes, she does love me no matter if she wants other people, and it's not because I'm lacking, but at the same time, she is going to go and look for things that are missing in our relationship.

yeah. So for me, it-- at first I thought it was to get needs met that Nate wasn't able to give or wasn't willing to give. And then once he started therapy, we started couples therapy, like he became a completely different person. Like he was the superstar husband that I had wanted for all those years. And so now I was not only getting like the [00:18:00] best version of him, but I was also giving, getting the opportunity to explore different parts of me with different people. And that felt really incredible. And so I think that even though I pursued it because he was lacking sort of in a way, it, it... That no longer really became an issue, and then I was able to still keep exploring because I realized like that's who I was.

Hmm.

Courtney: make sense? Yeah, yeah. Okay.

Fer: changes, Nate, that, that you feel like you made once you started going to therapy?

Nate: Yeah, yeah. So yeah, I mean, that's- So many. you know, I had some trauma in my past to work through, as well as a deployment where I had some trauma as well, 'cause I'm in the military.

So that was kinda me personally. And then working together with our therapist was that, and maybe Courtney was bothered by this a little bit, but you kinda have to go at the pace of the slowest person, [00:19:00] which is me in this case.

 and sort of like coming to the realization that Courtney's non-monogamous and that this is our life now. and you know, I was able to choose whether I wanted to continue to be part of this relationship or not. But if we were gonna commit, which I, I did, committed to being married and staying married, then we needed to work through our shit, our issues, so that we could communicate in a healthy way, we could be open and honest with each other. We'd express what we needed without it being a personal attack. Yeah. Like because Courtney has another partner, it's not an attack against me. It's not an affront against me. It's the, this is who she is and what she needs. We also do a better job of, allowing each other to have emotions without trying to fix it.

Yeah. And so it's not my job to make Courtney happy all the time. It's not her job to make me happy all the time. I try to meet her needs, but there's sometimes when I, I can't for whatever reason. But again, she's allowed to feel the way she wants, and I'm allowed to feel the way I want. So if she goes on a date and I'm jealous [00:20:00] because it's exciting to go on a date or gets to travel or do something fun and I'm jealous of that, or I'm lonely because she's gone and I'm not there- Mm-hmm

Fer: or with her, that's okay for me to experience those things. And Courtney doesn't have to fix that. And so I worked on being able to both, you know, manage some of my anger issues and my, my sort of lack of emotion, but then how we communicated- Yeah ... how we expressed what we needed, and then just allowing each other to feel how we were gonna feel- Yeah and being okay with that. Yeah, I'm really glad you mentioned letting your partner have their feelings without trying to fix them, 'cause I think especially with jealousy, that's a big one, right? Because your partner might have said, "It's totally okay for you to go on a date. No worries." And, and it probably is totally okay in a sense, right?

But that doesn't mean that, that they won't feel jealous. So then, you know, you come back from the date, and you see your partner jealous, and you're like, "But you said it was fine. Like, what's wrong? Am I doing something wrong?"

Courtney: had this conversation before? Yeah.

Fer: Yeah, like, you feel [00:21:00] guilty. "I did something wrong. I'm making my partner suffer.

I must fix it," you know. And, and a lot of what I teach my clients is, like, it's okay. you just need to let your partner feel jealous, right? But even as a jealous partner, sometimes you might be like, " My partner did something wrong," or maybe they didn't do something wrong, but because I'm feeling jealous, that means that non-monogamy is not for me, or we, we should fix it.

We should

Courtney: We can't do this. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah

Fer: And, it's like, just let yourself feel jealous. Assume that the first few dates you're gonna feel jealous, and just know that the, the feeling will decrease, and you'll learn to better manage it. And, like, just know that being uncomfortable is, is part of the process, and don't try to fix it, right?

So, so I like that you mentioned that. But tell me maybe about that first time that maybe Courtney went on a date and, and what the experience was like.

Nate: she first started dating, uh, she went on a date, and at that point, I was like, "Okay, you know, we- [00:22:00] it's been six-ish months. We've worked through a lot of issues." I was like, "I understand this is who you are. go ahead and go on a date, but I don't wanna know anything about it." Yeah.

So it's like a don't ask, don't tell. Like a don't ask, don't tell. Like, I understand you're gonna go on a date with someone. I understand where you're gonna be, who you're gonna be with, are you gonna be safe, all the things. We already talked about that, but then I was like, "I don't wanna know anything more, nothing more."

So she did that, and then that sort of ended essentially. And so that was okay. There wasn't a lot of emotionality to that. And then the next person she dated, I, I would say I couldn't handle it. Yeah. Would probably be the best way to describe it. Like, I was a wreck. Like, I lost it emotionally for me.

Like, I did not do well. Like, I was really, really struggling. Because the first person she dated, I felt like, the, looking back, it was much more kind of a physical relationship, and there was not much of an emotional connection there. Whereas this next person, there was much more of an emotional connection.

Fer: And that really, really scared me because I was like, you know, in my head I was, "Is she just gonna find [00:23:00] a replacement?" Like a better version, you know, like the newer, younger, better, richer, whatever version of more emotionally available, all the things I wasn't at the time- Yeah

Nate: essentially. Is she gonna find that version and just be like, "All right, I'm out. I, I found what I was looking for"? and so that was a lot harder for me because there was much more of a connection, than just sort of a romantic sexual date that just sort of was almost a one-off and done. Yeah. Whereas this person I saw that she could potentially be dating for a longer time, which we didn't know if that was her goal at the time, but it really terrified me, again, to kinda have feel that I wasn't enough, that I was gonna be replaced.

Fer: Yeah. And so that was really, really hard for me.And how was it for you, Courtney? Because I feel like for me, especially the first time, you kind of go like, "Oh my God," "Am I, you know, falling head over heels for this person?" And even if your relationship is actually stable, you might also have insecurities of like, "What does this mean for my marriage?"

'Cause it's the first time and you don't [00:24:00] know. And again, our monogamous conditioning tells us that if you love someone else, then that means there's something wrong with your relationship. So for me, even though my relationship with Seth was totally fine, the first time I was, you know, internally freaking out.

But at the same time, you don't want to freak out externally when your partner is also freaking out, right? So how was that process for you?

Courtney: it. Yeah. Um, Yeah, I would say it was really hard because we had agreed, like, okay, we had moved from don't ask, don't tell to, "Okay, I'm gonna support..." Like Nate's like saying, "I'm gonna support you and, I still don't wanna know the sexual details, but I at least wanna feel more like a part of this and support you. Yes, I know this is just who you are. Go get 'em," type of thing. So that's how we had it, and I was still talking to this guy that, um... 'Cause we were back in the States briefly for like a trip to visit family,

and then when we

Fer: right now, just for listeners, right now you live, if it's okay for me to say, you live in Germany, yeah

Courtney: [00:25:00] Yeah. So we had gone back to the States for a couple, like two and a half weeks, and that whole time I was talking with this guy, and I hadn't met him in person yet. We had agreed that the day after we got back from the US that I was gonna go on a date with him. And Nate was super on board with it and like, "Yep, that's great. Supporting you. Go get 'em." And then the day came and he just lost it. He was just like, "I don't want you to go." Like, "Please don't do this."

 and I was so mad. I was so angry. I felt like he was trying to control me and manipulate me, and I just... Yeah, I was, I had a lot of anger at him just still in general, but this like just set me over. Mm-hmm.

Fer: So you were like, "I don't care, I'm gonna go on the

Courtney: Yeah, absolutely Yeah. Yep I was like, "Absolutely not. This is not what we agreed to. You said you would be support..." I remember even s- yelling that at him. I was like, "You said you'd be supportive." And the guy had driven, like, two and a half hours to, for this date. So

it wasn't

Fer: At this point, like right before the date, it's

Courtney: Yeah. [00:26:00] This is literally, it's only a 30-minute...

Fer: the other person

Courtney: It's a 30-minute drive for me, and it was two and a half for him, and he's like... I'm like, "I'm not gonna tell him he can't c- like, I'm not gonna show up." and I just was like, "Ugh." I was so mad. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Fer: I remember meeting him in person for the first time and being like, "Huh." Like, the guy that I was meeting who I had, like, really started to fall for. Like, I, like, we talked all the time, and he was just so charming and all these things. And I remember meeting him being like, "Huh. Okay, well, he's not as cute as I thought he was gonna be." And then we went for a walk, and, like, I had romanticized, like, oh, he'll hold my hand, and he'll, you know, like, be passionate and show me affection and a lot of things that, you know, Nate just doesn't, he, he just didn't do, and that didn't happen.

Courtney: And so, like, I'm just continually kind of being let down by this guy that I had fought with Nate to go to lunch for, you know, just to go to lunch for. And I just remember sitting there thinking like, [00:27:00] "I left my husband, like, for this guy?" Like, I... And so f- it really, like, shifted something for me of seeing how valuable and how important my relationship with Nate was.

Like, I still continued to date and, you know, ended up having a decent time, but I really realized, like, oh, I'm not looking to replace him. Like, I'm not, I wanna come back, and I wanna repair with him.

Fer: Hmm. you know, that's also happened to me, right? Where you really like someone and maybe you put a lot of time and energy and effort into meeting them, or you arrange your schedule around them or whatever it is, and then you meet them and then you're like, you know, maybe they're not putting as much effort or they're just, like, not what you expected them to be.

 and then you're like, "I did all this for this person when I have this, like, amazing partner at home," right? So I think that it also can help you [00:28:00] really appreciate your partner and, and see your partner for, for who they are. this is our experience because we are both in relationships where, we have really great partners that we love and that support us and care for us and, and all of that.

But I, I think that sometimes for other people then, they meet someone else and they realize the opposite. They are like, "Oh my God, this person actually cares for me and makes me feel safe, and with my partner, I don't feel this way," right? And then, and then that's when non-monogamy causes couples to break up.

 but that's beautiful that, you realized that earlier on. Doesn't mean that you didn't, again, you know, put a lot of, like, effort on someone that maybe wasn't worth it. But then, how did you go from there, to, to repair?

Courtney: I don't remember. I remember you coming home and telling me that the date was okay, but that you missed me. Like, you missed me- Mm ... during the day. Like- Aw ... you reassured me that you still loved me, even though we were not [00:29:00] doing great at the time. Yeah. That you still loved me, and that you still wanted to, like, be with me.

That you still wanted- Mm ... like, our relationship was still important. And it still s- was struggling, obviously, but you, again, very early on, I think from that date on, obviously did... You know, 'cause again, we've been working with our therapist. Yeah. Like, you did a good job of reassuring me that you weren't looking to replace me.

Fer: Absolutely. You weren't looking to find somebody new. Yeah. Um, but this was who you were. You were very firm, and you were like, "I'm not gonna stop doing this. Like, this date was okay, but I'm, I... This is, this is who I am. It's not gonna stop." So it was not very much... It was definitely not like, she's like, "Well, the date was terrible. You're right." Like- I'm gonna hang up this non-monogamy thing. ... I'm gonna just stop being... Yeah, not right now. So she both reassured me, but she was also very clear in that, like, that it wasn't... She was who she was. that wasn't gonna change. Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's good that you were able to stand your ground.

Courtney: so then sounds like this date with this guy didn't pan out. Or did, did you see him again, or did you

Yeah. [00:30:00] So, I mean, gosh, I-- There are so many lessons I have learned. Um, I... It was-- There were some good and bad parts of it, but I was like, I, I care about him and I'm invested in him and, like, falling for him. And so I was like, "Well..." Like I, I said, "I wanna see you again." And he was like, "Yeah, me too." And then his communication started to change, um, and He just, like, ghosted essentially, like, just kind of faded out, and I just didn't understand that, th- that we had had this amazing connection.

And again, I was seeing so much of this still through a very monogamous lens. I didn't grow up in one-night stand culture. I grew up in, like, all of my friends were married by the time they were 22. You know, you're, like, having kids a few years later. The couples that I would see in therapy when I was working as a therapist, you know, they weren't there because of, stuff like this, like opening their marriage.

They were there for communication or sexual mismatch, you know, stuff. So I wasn't exposed to these kinds of [00:31:00] behaviors or issues in, like, date- the dating world, and I j- I was very naive.

Fer: Yeah. Yeah, and I mean, it sucks when you get out and, you know, even for myself, I mean, I, I didn't grow up, in, in that way, but I still sometimes I'm shocked by how men act, you know? I'm

Courtney: Ja.

Fer: you know, how, how is it, is this possible? I thought you were a decent person, you know? And then they do something that you are just like, "Oh my God."

 so, so yeah, I mean, tell me, after that, have you had, like, more of like a, you know, partnership with someone else or how did things evolve after that first, misstep with this guy?

Courtney: Yeah. So shortly after that, I matched with a guy, and we got into a partnership. And he had told me, 'cause he was a little bit younger, and said, "Hey, I, I wanna get married. I wanna have kids. like I would love to have what you and Nate have, but I just wanna let you know, if I find somebody that I, that I think could be a potential partner, like a marriage [00:32:00] partner, I, I wanna go out with them." And I was like, "Sure," because I was so desperate for attention and love and validation and all the things that I just tolerated really bad behavior and, had no idea, no idea what I was doing. And so we dated for a few months, and then I fell in love with him, and he dumped me the next day. I told him I loved him, and then the next day he dumped me because he was just like, "I thought I was ready for a relationship.

I'm not." And that was something that would kinda continue on. Where we live is not the most poly-friendly. I would say n-95% of my dating has been single monogamous men. And so that is the experience that I have had.

Fer: Yeah. Yeah, I feel that. and you know, that's why I've stopped dating monogamous men because they have this mindset of, "Oh, this is my open girlfriend that, you know, I can go and have sex with," but the moment I [00:33:00] find, like, my real girlfriend that I'm gonna marry, have kids with, then bye-bye, you know?

And it's like, I'm not expecting you to continue to date me if you find someone, but at least be friendly, at least, treat me as a friend, you know? But for them, it's like you're not a friend. You are, like, a sex object basically.

Courtney: Yeah, you're a placeholder

Fer: sorry that that has been your experience, And by this point, did your kids already know? How was the conversation with them?

Courtney: Yeah. So, my oldest, so she was 14 at the time, she confronted me and asked if I was having an affair, so about a year after we first opened. And I was just like... I just started crying immediately. I was so ashamed. Nate wanted to tell the kids very, very early on, and I was like, "No, n- when I find a partner, when I reach stabi- stability." And really, it was just I was afraid they were gonna think I was a monster, and I, I really thought that. I thought they were gonna be, like, disgusted with me and just so disappointed, and, they weren't. Like, [00:34:00] we, we were honest and ca- I came out to them, and first to my oldest and then to my 10 and 12-year-old, and they held my hand, and I cried, and they said, "We could never not love you.

Like,

we love you no matter what." And it really started me to, to heal my relationship with myself, and that was three years ago.

Mm-hmm.

Fer: Hmm, that's, that's beautiful. I love that. Yeah, I feel like, um, a lot of partners are very hesitant, but then when they actually do it, it's actually not as bad as they thought that it would be. Or again, like the kids already kind of guessed or thought they w- they were having an affair, which can be even worse, right?

Than, than like finding out about the, the open marriage. So that's awesome.

 Nate, how did you go from, you know, totally freaking out and having a really hard time to, to feeling a little bit more stable when Courtney went on dates or even as, as she started this partnership? how was that process and what h- was helpful to you to feel a little bit more at [00:35:00] ease?

Nate: Yeah, I think-- I mean, it's gradually gotten better over the years, for sure. you know, everything, every time she goes on a date and then comes home and it's like, "Man, I really love you and I'm, I'm excited- Mm-hmm ... for our partnership and our marriage," it helps me grow stronger and closer to Courtney. The other thing that helped me, I think, quite a bit, other than just continuing to work on myself, was that when she came back from good dates or a weekend away- Mm ... or whatever it was, like she... Courtney was so much better. So like, and I don't just mean like better as like, "Oh, I'm happy," but like better as a mom, better as a wife, better as a partner. Like she just seemed like her spirit was being filled by being able to do this thing- Mm ... you know, date someone else. That it made it easier and easier for me to support. Mm. Because she was becoming who she is now. Mm. It was gradual. It didn't all happen at one time. But as she became more authentic and more herself, that helped me realize that this was the right pathway [00:36:00] for both of us.

Courtney: Mm. that took a long time, and it took a lot of reassurance from me. Yeah. Um, but- Well, how did you make the switch? I- Hmm 'cause like Max was the guy that I was, fell in love with, and then he dumped me the next day. Like, you liked that I had one partner. Yes. You didn't like this idea of a revolving door.

Nate: I did not, yeah. So for me, the idea that Courtney could have one partner, and this is before I think she would consider herself polyamorous, but- Yeah she was kinda moving in that direction. So having one partner, to me, meant stability. And so if I understood and knew what was going on, it helped me and reassure me that it wasn't just Courtney sort of shopping for the next better guy or shopping for the whatever improvement, that it was consistent.

And for some reason, for me, and I know that not everyone who's monogamous or in a mono-poly relationship- Yeah ... likes that. But for me, Courtney having the stability- Yeah ... reassures me, actually. Having the, just the one other partner helps me understand and feel better. And also, I think we're maybe a little [00:37:00] unique, but if Courtney, again, now is polyamorous- Mm-hmm the more she's in love with someone or in love with someone, like that actually makes me feel more stable. Like it brings some stability to both her and to me. And so for me, that also helps. for some reason, her just having one other partner, like it is so much easier for me than sort of the, "Oh, I was texting with seven guys in the dating app today, and I have a date with a different person each, you know, like day over the weekend," where like I struggle with that quite a bit.

Yeah, I imagine that there's probably a couple of things there. Like one, you know, she already met this person. I already know who this person is. She already came back from the date and said, "I met this person. He's cool, but I still love you." And you know, not but, and I still love you, and you know. so it takes away that f- a little bit of that fear of what if she meets someone and then comes back from that date and she's like, "Oh my God, I met the real love of my life.

Fer: You aren't that person," and right? And then also sounds to me like [00:38:00] now that you are sharing more, I imagine that it's also, feels better to see Courtney just, like, happy with a stable person as opposed to, "Oh my God, this guy, you know, I told him I loved him and he broke up with me," or whatever, right?

And that can be hard on Courtney, but that also can be hard on you, Nate, if you are hearing about this, right? So I imagine that that might be some of the reasons why a stable partner feels better for you.

 anything else, Nate, that helped you, with the jealousy? I mean, it sounds like it was more of like a process. Like every time she came back, the reassurance, I think you've mentioned it a few times. I think it's really important. I've also done a lot of that with my partner of, you know, constantly reassuring him, not just after a date, but generally speaking, like showing him my love so he feels really secure in the relationship.

I think sometimes some people might be like, "Oh my God, you need me to tell you I love you again?" And it's like, yes, like tell your partner 1,000 times if they, if they need to hear it 1,000 times, you [00:39:00] know? I think that's, that's very good.

But anything else that helped you kind of like overcome the... not, I don't know if you overcame it. Like where are you at right now with the jealousy, first of all, and what helped you to get to that, to that point?

Nate: Yeah, I'm better with the jealousy. I wouldn't say it's completely gone. And it's not the jealousy of Courtney having another partner. Like, that's not a desire that I have. Like, we've talked about it a lot. Mm-hmm. It would probably make things easier if I was non-monogamous- Mm-hmm ... or polyamorous, so I could, you know, better understand.

But that's, it's not for me. but I'm still jealous of her having, like I said, the partner, but more of getting to do, like, fun things, like travel. So her partner currently lives in London, which we both really enjoy going to London. Mm-hmm. And so I'm kinda jealous that she gets to, like, go to London and, like, you know, hang out and do some touristy things and sightseeing things.

Fer: And I understand that's not what they're doing all the time. But, I enjoy traveling, not as much as Courtney does, but she gets to travel a lot of times. Mm-hmm. Almost none of her partners were local, and so she would get to travel to places to see them. And so [00:40:00] I'm a little bit jealous of the traveling, more than anything else probably, honestly. So if it sounds for you is like more, more like envy more than jealousy

Nate: That's probably a much better word for it, actually. Yeah.

 and then I've just learned that that's, like, a natural thing as well. Like, it's okay to have that feeling. Yeah. And then once she comes back and we sort of, you know, reconnect and talk, like, it goes away. It doesn't last forever. It's not permanent. I'm not holding it against her. But I do get that feeling sometimes, you know, even now. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah.

Fer: Yeah. Yeah, and I think it's, it's good to, to just be aware and again, not, not feel like, "Okay, we need to fix this." Just be like, "Okay, well, this feeling is negative." But then Courtney comes back and she's in a great mood and, our relationship is better. And, you know, I think that s- one of the things I talk about is, you know, what is a monogamous person getting in a mono-poly relationship, right?

If they're not getting those dates and trips and all of that. And it can be as simple as your partner being, a better partner to you, and more present and more happy and, [00:41:00] and more energized, and more in the mood to have sex, and, and all those things. But I think at first you don't see that until you start experiencing it, right?

And, like, you might experience it and you might be like, "Oh my God, the jealousy and the envy is not worth the positives," right? But I would say until you experience it, you won't know it, right? Like, everyone's experience is unique, so I encourage people to, you know, see if they can get to a point where they minimize the jealousy to a degree where they can start seeing the positive and then, and then decide, "Okay, this is for me.

This is not for me. We're breaking up. We're going back to monogamy," whatever it is. but Nate, since you mentioned the fact that you, you don't necessarily want another partner, but you would like the trips and such, why is it that you don't try to also find a partner and go on trips and have those experiences if you are, like, envious of the ones that Courtney is having?

Nate: Yeah, that's, that's a really great question. So, we've talked a lot about it, about me having [00:42:00] another partner, and there are some restrictions 'cause I'm in the military, let me explain for people that don't know. Oh, yeah, go for it. Yeah. So in the US military, if you are married, you are not allowed to have sex with anyone other than your spouse. It is considered adultery even if it is a consensual, even if both parties sign a statement that said, "I'm fine with it and I don't care," you can get an Article 15 and be discharged. Which is like, yeah, military action against you, so. Which, which is, you know, a tiny, tiny little factor for me. But we've also talked, like I just have no interest in dating or- It's a lot of work. Okay, let's- Trying to date put in. Yes, the trip. Okay, like I go travel. Like it's like six hours to get there, like- Yeah trains, planes, automobiles, like all the things. We have to-- We don't have to, but we communicate, my partner and I. I'm a big communicator, and that makes my time... Like I would not do well just being like, "Hey, I'll see you next month. We'll maybe talk once a week." I know that some people do do that, and that's great for them, [00:43:00] but the amount of effort and energy that I put into our, my relationship with my other partner so that when we do get to see each other, it is more meaningful, at least for us, is a lot of work. Yeah. So it's not all sunshine and rainbows these trips. Yeah. And I, and I see that, It's just I have no energy or desire to, to even consider that. So, um, and you know, we've had, you know, dinners with other non-monogamous couples, and we have some great friends that are non-monogamous.

Oh, yeah. Mm-hmm. And so, like we've talked about a lot of this. I never wanted to date any of them. But it just seems so exhausting to me and so much work that even-- And again, I don't think I have the capacity to love more than one person at a time. Then the idea of doing dating on top of that just is just a no for me.

I just can't even, can't even consider it, honestly, so.

Fer: Yeah, and I'm glad you are speaking up about that because again, I think we need to normalize it because often, especially if the woman is the one that's non-monogamous, [00:44:00] there's a pressure on the other partner, even from your partner, right? Like, sounds corny, like, you are like, "But come on, Nate, try it," you know?

And I feel like sometimes, and I've seen this as well, people tend to think that if their partner were non-monogamous, then all of their issues would be solved because they would understand or it would be balanced or... And I don't think that way. I, I think that actually there would be more issues because you wouldn't only have to deal with, Nate's jealousy and Courtney's relationships.

It would be Courtney's jealousy, Nate's jealousy, Nate's relationships, Courtney's rela- right? Like, it-- Yes, sometimes it can balance things out. I'm not saying that, you know, it's always, something that won't help. But I think, you know, there's a misconception that, that it should be balanced, it should be equal.

And, you know, again, not just from your partner, from society, right? As, as a man, you are, quote-unquote, "Letting your woman go and, be with other men," and you are not man enough to, like... You know, because also, there's [00:45:00] an idea that masculinity comes with being very sexually active or not active necessarily, but, like, very interested in sex, right?

how do you kind of come to terms with that? Or did you ever have any, Nate, any moments where you were like, "Does this mean I'm not man enough?" Like, "Is there something wrong in me for not wanting this?"

Or, or was it always like, "Okay, this is who I am"?

Nate: Yeah. Well, I'd start by saying you must have read a lot of the comments on our YouTube. They all say that you know, I'm defrating Courtney Renwild essentially, and I'm not man enough or I should be a m- more alpha or something. Be alpha. Some, some BS. You're so beta. Yeah. Some BS about our relationship, so, but yeah, so yeah, so that's a lot of the comments we get, which I don't really care about.

Courtney: But, um, I think at the very beginning there was a little bit of the, "She's trying to replace me," but I'm a very confident person in who I am. Very confident. Yes. Yes. So, um, and I was very confident in who I [00:46:00] was professionally and from the military standpoint and okay as a father. I think I struggled in my confidence in our relationship because I knew subconsciously that I wasn't a great partner to Courtney. Mm-hmm. But now that I've sort of gotten my shit together and- That's word ... done a lot better. Gotten my shit together. Yeah. So, um, and have learned to be a much better partner and, and a better person as well.

Nate: Yeah. Then I have complete confidence in who I am in our relationship. Sometimes maybe a little bit too much confidence. Um, so, um, for me, that hasn't, over the last few years, has not been an issue. So I, you know, I don't see myself as an alpha or a beta or whatever. Like, I don't define myself that way. I just look at how, who I am, and I'm confident in who I am.

Fer: Yeah. And like who I am, and I continue to be the best version of me, and that is who I wanna be. Yeah. And the best version of our relationship. So for me, it has not been, over the last couple years, much of an issue. Yeah. Yeah, I love that. And, you know, I also have gotten comments, "Seth, man up," or whatever, right, on my

Instagram or whatever it [00:47:00] is. but when you actually get to talk to Seth or, or now that, you know, I'm getting to talk to you, you realize, and I've, I've mentioned this on the podcast before, it's very masculine to be like, I'm confident enough that I'm okay with my wife going and seeing other men because I know the value that I bring," right?

And, and as you said, maybe you didn't know the value at first because you, you weren't bringing as much value as you are now. But I think if you feel like you are showing up in the relationship and you have things to add, then that can also minimize the discomfort. yeah, I mean, again, in my particular relationship, it really is mostly about the sex, the reason why I'm non-monogamous.

And, I had an episode with my partner Seth where someone asked, does your partner having sex with other people make you feel, insecure sexually?" Or something like that, right? And Seth was like, "Listen, like, I know that I bring a lot to the table. It, it might not be, like, my sexual skill," [00:48:00] you know, because actually he's, he also grew up religious and, you know, only had sex when he was like, for the first time when he was, like, 26.

So he's not, like, very experienced. We still have, like, really beautiful sex together, but he's not that interested in it. He's not that, skilled at it maybe. And he's like, "I know that, but I know I bring so much more to the table," you know what I mean? and I think there's, like, a power.

And not just when it comes to sex, but generally speaking in non-monogamy, when your partner is with someone that maybe is different from you, I think there's a lot of power in being like, "Yeah, I don't have those things that the other person has, but I do have these other things," right? And, like, focusing on those as opposed to focusing on, on the lack.

But actually on that note, I'm curious to hear, how was the sex before you opened the marriage? Was that a big factor? And how has opening the marriage changed your sexual connection, if at all?

Courtney: I I think the sex before we opened was good. Give it a- Yeah ... C. [00:49:00] Yeah. That's okay. C+. Yeah. It was fine. Like, um, it-- I wouldn't say it was very connected, like connective. That's important to me, to have s- more emotional connection is when I find the sex is better. That's why I don't enjoy one-night stands.

There's no connection there for me. and so when we opened, our sex... Well, yeah, our sex life exploded. Yeah. It was, like, incredibly... We were having sex all the time, and really intense and passionate, and I felt just finally like, "Oh, I..." Like, "I get to, I get to be free." And that was so arousing and erotic, and him supporting me felt really a- arousing.

And so, yeah, it, it's been a great ride.

Fer: Yeah. Yeah, again, I think that that confidence that you see in him, when he's like, "You go and do your thing," that can be very, [00:50:00] yeah, very hot, very arousing

Courtney: Oh, 100%. 100%. Yeah.

Yep

Fer: Yeah, so, you know, men who are, like, afraid to, again, quote unquote, "let their woman go and have sex with other people," that can actually be hot. That can actually make, your partner want you even more, you know?

 Nice. So tell me about this, this partner that you have. How long have you been together? How did that come about?

Courtney: So we, have been together for five months. Um, we met at a non-monogamy social. I'm just through mutual friends. Like, it was

Fer: In

Courtney: not expected. No, in outside of London. So I have, friends that, who are also non-monogamous and, who I knew from Germany, and then they-- we all, like, introduced each other and, yeah, so we met in the wild.

It was crazy. Like I-- he was not really looking for anybody, and I was honestly had [00:51:00] resigned myself to the fact that I probably wouldn't find like one partner.

 it was so hard to find somebody. And then I just randomly serendipitously met him five months ago.

Fer: Nice. So sounds like he is non-monogamous.

Courtney: Yeah, so he identifies as poly. Mm-hmm.

Fer: Um, but he doesn't have, like, a primary partner at the moment or

Courtney: So he's married. he's a dad and very similar to our situation. I mean, other than his wife isn't monogamous. And yeah, they're British, and he lives outside of London, and yeah

Fer: Nice. That's awesome. And how has that been for you? Because again, the emotional rollercoaster of, finding someone and then them breaking up with you, or you realizing you don't like them as much, and then you've already put so much time and energy. I, I'm actually at the moment kind of taking a break.

I'm just, like, at a moment [00:52:00] where I'm like, it's just too much work, like, too much em- emotional rollercoaster.

And yes, I mean, we've talked about the good things, right? Like the, yes, our sex is better and, you know, we feel more connected with, I mean, with your primary partner, with your husband. but there's also, even when things are going well, there's also the, thinking about the other person and as you said, like, making plans to go see him in London and, I don't know if there's stuff that has come up with his wife.

 there's always, you know, work, right? Like, non-monogamy is work, right? So,

Courtney: so much work.

Fer: so right now I'm like, I can't go through the ups and downs and the emotional rollercoaster and the... You know? I'm kind of having an existential crisis in terms of, like, what I want with non-monogamy.

So I'm just curious for you, Courtney, you know, where are you at with the emotional rollercoaster, the workload? Like, are things, like, now that you have a more stable partner, are they, like, smooth sailing? Or what has been, if anything,

Courtney: Are all my dreams come true? Yeah. [00:53:00] I-- well, I'm curious what your thoughts would be. I, yeah, I think... So before Courtney met her current partner- Yeah ... she was not doing very well. And I don't just mean, like, not getting dates. I mean, like, emotionally she was struggling. She felt maybe similar to you in a little, little bit of the ways, like very frustrated.

It was wearing on our relationship a little bit. Yeah. And you were just sort of like, "I'm, I'm done for now." Yeah. and you did take, honestly, a few months off where- Several times.

Nate: I would say now with your current partner, like there are still challenges, right? So you're dealing with, you know, multiple schedules.

They have children like us, it is a little more challenging, I think, for scheduling-wise. But I think that the stability of having a partner that's similar to you- Yeah ... and that being married and sort of having, you know, plus or minus a wife who's, you know, maybe non-monogamous or whatever it may be, so has a little bit better understanding. Mm-hmm. Like I think that has helped kind of level things out. It doesn't mean that every- every day is great or there's a bunch of- Yeah ... lows, but it kind of evens it out for you. Yeah. And I think that your [00:54:00] relationship has, you know, evolved into more of kind of like a stable, kind of like true boyfriend relationship, like solid relationship. Mm-hmm. And you do get along with his- Wife, yeah

wife really well. Like you guys hang out when you go up there. Yeah. her partner's come down here and met me, so this is the first partner that I've met or spent any significant time with, and so that's a change as well. Yeah. And so it's really, I think, kind of what your goals were- Yeah ... initially was to have a partner that's sort of part of our lives.

Courtney: so. Yeah. I w- I mean, and to answer your question, I one of the things that I would struggle with before, I was like, "I'm never dating a monogamous man again. I'm only gonna date married men or, you know, partnered men." And then that has its own challenges.

It like... Or, "I'm never dating guys who are, you know, super younger than me. Like, I'm only gonna date men who are my age or older."

And then, like, there's challenges no matter where you are, what, category you date from. And so, yes, I don't have the challenges that I was experiencing with the monogamous single [00:55:00] men, but we don't stay at each other's houses, so every time him and I meet, we have to meet at a hotel. And like, that's the first time I've, been with somebody that I've not stayed at their house or been to their house. And like, so that's an adjustment. And, you know, planning with between six kids and two spouses or four, you know, adults, it's, "Okay, well, when can I see you?" And I'm used to not having to schedule with all of those other people and having a partner who's a little bit more available in that respect.

Like I'm, I'm super grateful for my relationship. I really, really am. It's-- But I think it's important to remember too that... 'Cause I thought that there is this like holy grail, perfect situation, and that doesn't exist

Fer: Yeah. I mean, that resonates a lot.

 I'm glad to hear that, you know, even though it also comes with its own set of challenges, it feels a little bit more stable.

 so I'm curious about your YouTube channel and how the idea came about. and also how did you make the decision to, be public, [00:56:00] right? Because, you know, your kids are probably, if not already aware, going to become aware of, of your relationship and the channel and all of that. And more generally speaking, I know, Nate, you mentioned you are in the military.

Like, I don't know if, you know, everyone in your life knows at this point, and how did you make the decision to become public?

Nate: Well, it was not my idea. No, it was actually my idea, um, to do the YouTube channel because I found when I was looking for advice on sort of the monogamous partner in a monogamous, non-monogamous or polyamorous- Mm-hmm ... whatever you wanna call it, relationship, I could not find anything, or at least no good resources.

I felt like there was just very little, almost no research or literature, 'cause I'm like academic. I, you know, I, I wanna read some paper or some study, but didn't seem to exist. and I tried on, you know, looking through YouTube, and I tried on looking just even Google stuff, and it's very hard to find.

Courtney: And I was like, "This sucks." Like [00:57:00] we, w- we're, you know, we need to... I don't know if we need to tell the world, but we need to provide a resource that I couldn't find, and I felt like that doing it through YouTube was a way to potentially do that. Um, and Courtney already had like an Instagram and some other things. TikTok, yeah. And so, and TikTok, but, but I felt like a different format would be to do the YouTube channel, and so it was my idea- Mm-hmm ... um, to do it, and that I thought it was important to provide a resource for folks who may be in a similar situation but couldn't find any information about there. Yeah, so I had slowly started coming out as polyamorous on my professional, you know, in my pr- the professional world, and wanted to share, what it was like to be married and dating and a mom and a business owner. Because I, when I was first grappling with non-monogamy and possibly being polyamorous, my sister w- who's super supportive, was like, "Well, go to Reddit. Like, go to TikTok and, you know, find these polyamorous people." [00:58:00] And so I did, and one, don't read the comments. Uh, that was awful.

And so I was like, "Uh..." And nobody looked like me. Like, nobody was a mom and had been married for 20 years and had, you know, their own, business. And it, it was like these single people who were tattooed and pierced in Berlin and Portland, and there's nothing wrong with that.

They're part of the community. That's beautiful, but I couldn't relate to that. Like, I'm like, how do you balance dating when you have a husband who's not dating or who it-- who may be, I don't know. So I was like, "Nope, shut it. I can't do this." I, so my journey was really lonely in, in exploring non-monogamy and polyamory, and I dealt with so much shame.

And so I slowly started to come out to my audience in my professional life and just be open about, which is what my memoir is about. It's called "Open." Um, and then Nate was like, "Hey, what if we did this YouTube channel?"

 And so it's been an interesting year and a half of having [00:59:00] this channel of, um... But yeah, I'm so glad we did it. It's been incredible. Like, I can't wait to see where it goes, and I'm, I'm really proud of it. Yeah.

Fer: Yeah, and I imagine that even though you had some nasty comments, you also had people who were thankful and supportive, and that probably also helped with the shame

Courtney: Yeah. Yeah. absolutely.

hmm. I love that. Well, I'll make sure to have links so people can connect with you

Ja,

Fer: they're interested.

 Thank you so much, Courtney and Nate. So, so glad

Courtney: Thank you. Yeah, thank you. Thank you

Speaker 3: there's actually a little bit more to this conversation that I didn't include here. Here is a little preview of what we talked about

Fer: how do you kind of balance, you know, having this new connection, new relationship energy. How do you manage that with, you know, having a husband and having three kids and wanting to be present in your life, but also being really excited about this new person?

 how do you think I balanced the NRE this time around? I [01:00:00] think the last couple times has been a lot better. The first couple of years when she was dating,

Nate: Um, it was a little crazy at the beginning.

Fer:  how was that process from don't ask, don't tell to okay, actually, let's share a little bit more or, or let's hear a little bit more?

I'm a really, uh, an external processor, so it, it was really hard for me to not share

Courtney:  and I think Nate could see that, and then it made it awkward in terms of how we communicated.

Speaker 3: If you want to hear the rest of this conversation you can just go to the episode after this one if you're on Spotify.

Subscribe and listen or just follow the link in the show notes to go to my Patreon for the bonus content