Speaker 3: [00:00:00] I really struggled with my relationship with Kat because I was comparing my relationship with her to the relationship I have with my mom for an extended period of time. So when it came to intimacy and when it came to sex and when it came to being with both of them, I was unconsciously unaware that I, that I had this block in front of me.

And then once I started challenging that and I was able to see that it wasn't me and her, but it was me and my mom, then we were able, and I was able to move forward into building a relationship with three people

Speaker 4: Hey, everyone. Welcome to Polycurious. I am Fer, relationship coach and your host. And today I am talking to Kat, Natalie, and Joshua from The Kink Collective. The Kink Collective is an organization that they lead where they have workshops, they have a podcast, they have events where people can connect, they have a master [00:01:00] class, and they'll tell us a little bit more about it towards the end.

But the reason why I wanted to have them on the podcast is because besides being the leaders of the collective, they are also in a relationship. They are a triad. And believe it or not, I had not had a triad in the podcast yet. In the 80-plus episodes of Polycurious, this is the first time that I got to talk to them about what they would advise for people who might be navigating this dynamic.

But honestly, I think that their tips are also relevant to people who might just have had threesomes or maybe gone out with a couple or gone out with a third. So I'm really excited to dive into that. But there were other topics that came into the surface that were relevant for anyone. One of them is honesty.

And honesty in non-monogamy is a big topic, because I feel [00:02:00] like a lot of people fall into a dynamic where- It's not that one is being completely dishonest, although I will say in Joshua's case, he did come from a background of cheating. However, by the time Kat and Joshua started seeing each other, Joshua had moved into what he called ethical-ish non-monogamy, right?

Even if you want to do things ethically, it is very common at first that you might be afraid of disclosing everything because you don't want to hurt your partner, for example. Even I have been in that situation. And if you come from a background like Kat did, where he- she had been cheated on, you might be a little bit extra sensitive to people not telling the full truth or sugarcoating things, or just not being completely honest and transparent, right?

Even if the other person is not [00:03:00] technically lying, and as I mentioned in the episode, it becomes a little bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy. The more they hide things, the less you trust. Because of your reaction, they might be afraid of bringing things up 'cause they're afraid that you won't believe them, or that you'll question them, or that you'll criticize them, or whatever it is, right?

So today, Kat and Joshua tell us how they got out of that cycle. Now, as they were working through this, or perhaps even when they had already worked through this, Natalie came into the picture, and when Natalie came into the picture, Joshua actually had, I believe, four or five other partners, right? So she was, like, the sixth person in the dynamic, so even though eventually Natalie became more of a anchor partner and moved in with Kat and Joshua, she experienced a lot of jealousy and a lot of difficult [00:04:00] emotions at first.

So we talked about jealousy. We also talked about the transition from Natalie and Joshua dating To the three of them becoming a triad. At first, they were two separate relationships, and some of the things that Natalie had to overcome were her expectations of how she thought that the relationship should go.

We also talked about their age difference. So Natalie is 26 years old. Joshua is 47. Kat is 62. So Kat is, I think, even older than Natalie's mom, right? So for her, it was a process to become more intimate with her and to not, in many ways, compare Kat with her mom. Now, as Natalie became closer with Kat, she could let go of expectations and just make the dynamic what it just [00:05:00] needed to be organically and naturally.

They have come to a much more stable place where they support each other, they en- enjoy each other's company, and they have been living together for a while now, and it's working for them. They seem to have learned a lot, and those lessons are the ones that you are going to hear today. And of course, in the show notes, you'll also be able to find all of the resources we talk about today, as well as The Kink Collective's website, where you can find all of their work, their Instagram, their podcast.

Everything will be there for you to access if you're interested in checking them out. Okay, before I start, I just want to remind you that if you're struggling in your non-monogamous journey and you feel like you could use someone to talk to, you can book a free exploratory call to chat about my coaching by following the link in the show notes, or you can [00:06:00] write directly to me at polycuriouspodcast@gmail.com.

Okay, guys,

Speaker 5: here is my interview with Kat, Natalie, and Joshua from The Kink Collective

Speaker 4: Kat, Joshua, and Natalie, welcome to Polycurious. I'm so excited to have you. As I was just sharing a moment ago, I've never actually had a triad in the podcast. I've tried, but for some reason, I haven't managed to find someone that was willing to talk about the experience. So I'm excited to dive into your relationship dynamic, and yeah, just to connect.

So great to have you. Thank

Speaker 6: you, Fernanda. Thank you. Thank you.

Speaker 4: So I guess let's start from the beginning. Well, first of all, tell us a little bit about your relationship dynamic before we get into how you became non-monogamous and how you ended up in this dynamic, but what does it look like today? I know that the three of you live together.

How long have [00:07:00] you been together, and how is your dynamic?

Speaker 3: We're looking at Kat.

Speaker 5: We're looking at you. Okay. So, so yes, the three of us live together here in East Harlem in New York City. We've been living together for- Two and a half years, I think. Time goes by kind of in a blur. Josh and I have been together for eight and a half years, and Natalie's been with us for the last three, I believe.

Speaker 6: About three and a half, yeah.

Speaker 5: Three and a half at this point. And then, yeah, she moved in probably two and a half years ago, so it's been like that. And we do... I like to say we do everything that two people in a relationship do, only we do it with three people. So we sleep in the same bed. We, you know, we take care of meals together.

We, we do all of the household things that you would do if two people were in a relationship, only we do it across three. And that, to me, is the simplest way to describe it, and the least dramatic way to talk about it, right? 'Cause I think sometimes people can sort of have dramatic thoughts. I mean, one of the questions we always get is h- [00:08:00] "What, well, what are the sleeping arrangements," right?

And we just got a king bed and-

Speaker 6: We turned it sideways ...

Speaker 5: we turned it sideways and, you know. Recently. 'Cause we- We

Speaker 6: need it ...

Speaker 5: none of, none of us are taller than 5'6", so we, we sleep the sideways on the bed and then we get a little bit more width and And, and a king-sized bed is, is perfectly big enough.

Speaker 4: Already getting great tips for triads.

Speaker 5: Well-

Speaker 6: You could

Speaker 5: actually fit more than

Speaker 6: that if you wanted to. Well, then

Speaker 5: you just...

Speaker 3: Kink. Yeah. Not much to add to that either in terms of our dynamic. I, I just kind of walked in and, and settled in and that's how it felt.

Speaker 6: Now, the benefit that we have is that it sounds and it s- it seems seamless, and I think for the better part it fucking was.

But that's because Kat and I have been doing this BDSM and kink stuff for so long that the level of negotiation and conversations that we have set an easier platform for Natalie to step in, meaning the frameworks of open [00:09:00] communication were already set. Understanding that people in a triad may not be that level of comfort right away to where they're all sleeping in the same bed, and in, in our own right it took us a few months to get there.

But-

Speaker 5: Yeah. That's true ...

Speaker 6: from the outside looking in it could sound like it just happened overnight, and there were baby steps. And it was baby steps a lot between Kat and I. Me coming from a, just a life of, of... I was a habitual cheater because I was afraid of speaking what I needed. And so instead of risking rejection I would just go do it and ask for forgiveness later.

And I didn't wanna live that way any longer. And when Kat and I got together and- I was determined to change my ways, and Kat gave me the space to do that, understanding that I was activated a lot from old shit that was driving me, and it, it didn't just turn off because I became aware of it. Kat, as an adult, [00:10:00] right?

Because age matters in this stuff, like maturity matters, experience, timing matters to say, "I've done this habit, I've done this pattern long enough, and it just doesn't work for me anymore, or it never worked from the beginning and I'm tired of surviving. What does it look like to get out of relationship survival?"

And that's what Kat and I did and, and what she did for me, and it was a lot of unlearning that I had to do before I could trust what I was feeling in the relationship with

Speaker 5: Yeah. When Josh and I first started together, we were both non-monogamous. That was true about where we had been prior to our coming together, right?

And so I'm not terribly active with tons of partners kinda thing, but in the course of the time that, that Josh and I have been together, he's had multiple other partners, and every time a new partner would come in or one would go or whatever, it always created an [00:11:00] opportunity for more discussion, more honesty, you know, a greater level of, you know, a personal accountability, and navigating things like jealousy or-

Speaker 6: Uncertainty

Speaker 5: uncertainty, resentment, all of those things like have all been part of the journey. You know, I personally come from a background of cheaters, and so I am very sensitive to when I'm around people who have been intimate and the tr- that truth isn't on the table, right? So we used to go back and forth with me saying, "I need you to step up and tell me the truth, not because I need to be the keeper of your time, but because I just need the truth to be on the table so that I don't feel crazy."

And people would say to me, "Oh, you're so jealous," blah, blah, blah. At one point, you even said to me, "I don't think you're non-monogamous," or maybe, you know, there was the, the thought that I was monogamous and, and I wasn't. And so it was just giving ourselves the time and [00:12:00] space to work through where we had come from and where we wanted to be, right?

My cheating experiences go back all the way to my childhood. Like, that's what all the men in my family did. So being able to walk this path of getting more honest and being able to be open and being able to have everybody pursue what they need to pursue and show up in truth and transparency has enabled me to heal from all of that, right?

I healed from a past where nobody did that. Nobody knew how to do that. People just cheated on each other. That's what they did. And to be able to get to a place now where we are kind and loving and honest and, and sharing a life together is very healing for me. I, I knew that non-monogamy was for me. It was the way that I wanted to be, but I also knew that I needed to be in a relationship with someone who could be Truly, truly, like brutally honest with me.

You know, always leading with the truth, always saying [00:13:00] honestly what was happening. And that's not easy. I think to people who are maybe new to this or people who are trying this out, that level of honesty doesn't come easily at the beginning, right? It means navigating how you're feeling, worrying about how the other person's gonna feel.

How am I gonna be received? Is this gonna be okay? Am I gonna be rejected? And so it takes a lot of, like, kindness and practice really honestly communicating with one another. And, and if there's anything I would say to listeners, it's, it's that to pursue it that way. To pursue it, like, that communication is probably one of the, the most important things to do to navigate something outside of the, the world's traditional monogamous relationship, right?

Speaker 6: And it's funny. Build this vocabulary and understanding before you get into the relationships, meaning meet other people who have frameworks or experience that you can talk about the way you wanna go with it. Because before Kat, I [00:14:00] was non-monogamous, and I was ethically-ish. Uh- ... meaning the ex before Kat- Was okay with it, but she really wasn't.

But she wouldn't tell me she wasn't, and so there was that underlying of resentment. And then when it comes to truth-telling, it's not like most people are straight-up lying, but omission is also not truth-telling.

Speaker 4: Transparency.

Speaker 6: Tran- the absence of transparency. Or

Speaker 4: sugarcoating.

Speaker 6: Or sugarcoating, right? And I was doing a lot of that with myself and my own needs.

"Ah, it's, I don't need to say it. It'll be okay." And I did that over and over and over and over, and then that's what led me to infidelity, was I didn't feel safe enough to say what I needed. And that was my own undoing because I didn't create those types of relationships to feel safe enough to say what it was.

Speaker 4: I really like that you both are bringing up something that I feel is very important for people to hear when it comes to honesty because, you know, for example, I've always [00:15:00] prided myself on being a very honest person. And even then, when I started dating other people, I was sugarcoating. I was, yeah, maybe omitting certain things because I was afraid to hurt my partner, right?

Because I was afraid that my partner would get upset. Because we come from that monogamous conditioning of like, "Oh, we must be doing something wrong," right? So in your case, Joshua, you had already recognized, "Okay, infidelity is not good. Like, that's not the way I wanna move forward." But it wasn't a switch like, "Oh, now I'm ethically non-monogamous and I'm, I'm not, you know, lying or omitting or sugarcoating or whatever," right?

It was a process for you because you had been used to doing it that way for so long, right? And then on your side, Kat, you were coming from relationships where you had been cheated on, right? So you needed that extra reassurance, and that also happens a lot. I work with a lot of clients who Have a [00:16:00] past of having been cheated on, and then they become hypervigilant, right?

And then they wanna know everything that their partner did, and then their partner feels questioned, and they get defensive or they start... You know, it becomes almost like a self-fulfilling prophecy because they start not saying certain things because they know that the other person is so hypervigilant, and the other person will distrust whatever they're saying, you know, even if they didn't actually do anything wrong.

So why bother having that conversation, right? So I do think that non-monogamy really pushes you to, to radical honesty, right? So it sounds like it was a process, right? It was a process of Joshua maybe doing, you know, ethical-ish non-monogamy or however you called it, and Kat, you being like, "Okay, I'm gonna trust him, and I'm going to be maybe a little bit less hypervigilant," and push and pull, and it sounds like, you know, it took years to get there.

But was there any particular experience, or was [00:17:00] there anything in that process that you'd like to share when it comes to people who might be, you know, in either side?

Speaker 5: Yeah. I... That, that speaks a lot to what my experience has been like. When we first started, I felt more insecure. I felt like I needed information.

I had more rules about communication. Like, I wanted to know if, if he was gonna go out and meet with someone, I wanted to know in advance if there was gonna be play, and play is sort of euphemistic for any sort of intimate sex, whatever. We just use the word play for that, right? So, you know, I would wanna know in advance, and then when he would come back, I'd be looking for the evidence that I, you know, that I would know was there whether he would say it or not, right?

Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.

Speaker 5: And so looking for that level of honesty or that transparency. And then it got to the point where I was like Okay if I didn't have to know if there was gonna be play up front, because I began to be confident that I would be told on the back end. So [00:18:00] if he went to meet with someone, not knowing how it was gonna turn out, and there was a connection and it went well, and so he ended up playing, then I could trust that when he came back, he would tell me.

So that helped me reduce that hypervigilance, that feeling like I always had to be on guard looking for it, looking for the information, looking for the confirmation of what I thought might happen or what I was afraid might happen or, or whatever. Not even afraid, but just that I was afraid that it would happen and then I wouldn't get told.

Speaker 4: Mm-hmm, because that had happened in the past, I assume.

Speaker 5: Oh, in my life,

Speaker 4: for s- Like, like, no, but with him. Had it happened with him?

Speaker 5: No, it never actually... We did have a couple of incidences where things were not as transparent as they needed to be, and tho- those were a couple of things that we navigated specifically.

Speaker 6: That's how we got to the back end of tell me on the other side of it, because sometimes the intention wouldn't be there to have sex or to play. It would be one thing that would lead to another. Mm-hmm. And then it would be like, well, here we are. And then the guilt that would come from, [00:19:00] from that was, ah, what do I say?

What do I say? But then her detective self would be able to det- to pull it out, and it's like, ah, but I felt so embarrassed to say it because you were gonna be disappointed or hurt that I did. And it's like, it fed itself. But then that's how we got to the understanding that on the back end, if I say it before she figures it out, it's like it, it just diffuses it.

Speaker 5: Yeah, and that, and that also gave me the freedom to let there be more time and, you know, a looser set of time involved, right? So I didn't have to have a proclamation before he went out what he was gonna do. He could go do whatever he was gonna do, and then I began to be able to trust that I would find out what I would need to know on the back end, because he would show up and tell me.

And the more that happened, the more comfortable I got. And, and- Yeah ... that process is also self-feeding, right? The, the, the more honesty, the more truth, the more comfortable, the more The more leeway, [00:20:00] the more permission

Speaker 6: I think part of that conversation was in the earlier years was expect that it will happen.

Speaker 5: Yeah.

Speaker 6: And then I'll tell you if it doesn't.

Speaker 4: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I think that's a good tip 'cause that's a typical beginner's mistake. Your partner asking you, "Are you going to play tonight," or, "Is this date platonic or is it romantic or sexual?" And you'll be like, "I think it's platonic. I think we're just friends," or, "I think we're not gonna play."

But, like, you know, you maybe had, like, a 10% suspicion that something might happen, you know, and then you go on the date and you're like, "Ooh, actually, like, I do wanna play. I do wanna make out. This is not just friends or whatever," right? And then, you know, I remember once I literally texted my partner you know, like, while I was on the date like, "Hey, changed my mind.

Like, can I do this?" You know? And, and he didn't like that. And you know, I think that whether you have a relationship where you have to let your partner know before or after, right? Because I mean, that works for you, like, just knowing after the, the fact, but for some pe- people, they might just [00:21:00] want to know before, which is also fine.

But I think if you are on the side where you're going on a date, it's important to e- even if you have, like, a 2% suspicion that there might be something there, to say, "I don't know. I think it might happen," right? Or, or as you said, like, just assume it's happening y- you know? 'Cause I f- I find that with non-monogamy, a lot of it is expectations, right?

It's not about what you do. It's about m- being clear and giving your partner the tools for them to deal with whatever you're doing emotionally, right? And if you surprise them, that can feel very destabilizing, can make you not trust your partner as much.

Speaker 5: Yeah. And I also think though that what s- something that you said really struck me as a great tool, right?

Like, you go out on the date and you're not sure what's gonna happen, or you say, "Oh, I, I think it's gonna be platonic," and then it's different. We do have cell phones, and there is something to be said for, for me, it would totally work [00:22:00] to be texted mid-date and say, "Oh, this is heating up. I, I think we're gonna play."

I mean, and even to be get granted the, the, you know, like I, I never have felt like I've needed to be asked for permission for anything. I've just always needed, like, the news flash, right? You don't need my permission to play with someone, I just wanna know. I know that you said it didn't work in your partner's case, but being able to, being able to have tools that you can use to help make sure that each of you are getting your needs met.

'Cause a lot of it is just figuring out why you need what you need, right? Like, I personally never needed to grant permission, I only ever needed information. And I think sometimes you may have felt like I was looking to have to be granting you permission, or you were looking to have to get my approval, and that was never the case.

And so the more clear you can be about why you need what you need and what it would take to meet that need so that it can be okay for each party to do what they wanna do moving forward, I think is really helpful.

Speaker 6: Hmm.

Speaker 4: [00:23:00] Mm-hmm. Yeah, I like that. So that's on the side of the partner that's having a hard time trusting.

For you, Joshua, what was something that really helped you to be honest? Again, I understand it was a process. But for people, or men in particular, who might be struggling to just be transparent about their actions because of that fear of how their partner is going to react, was there anything that helped you besides what you've already shared, just kind of repetition of, like, coming back to, to Kat and her being understanding and not judging you for what you did and things like that?

Speaker 6: While I was listening to Kat share, what, a word that came to mind was disapproval And it's like, 'cause you said I- it's not that I need to give you permission, something along those lines, but it made me start to think back in the past of what was it that I was trying to not have to confront, and it was either, it was like the disapproval of my choice of, of the person.

Because the [00:24:00] ex-prior, she met me as a secondary. Like, she knew I was with someone, and they knew each other, like. So I, I'd been doing polyamory for years before. It wasn't as open and transparent because of my fear of disapproval, that they'll say, "No, not this person." And then they became the picker of who my connections were.

What it boiled down to was I had to ask myself, "Why am I afraid to show up as the man I want to be, I know I can be? Why do I keep being a hypocrite to my beliefs, and why am I afraid of it?"

Speaker 5: Mm.

Speaker 6: And I had to confront those questions every time. Every time I would feel myself being pulled to, to not tell the truth, it was like this is what was going on inside of me.

And I think that comes to say mentorship matters among men in relationships because we need somebody to talk to. We need somebody

Speaker 4: to- Yeah, and keep you accountable, too, right? Mm-hmm. So like if you're in a men's group or something, right, like you have to come in every week and say, [00:25:00] "I again lied to my partner," right?

As opposed to brushing it under the rug and- Yeah ... not really thinking about it or not being conscious of what you're actually doing, you know?

Speaker 6: Because what I notice at this point in my life is that whenever I fail to perform my responsibility, my partners pay for it. I don't want to be that person. So when I get to go into men's spaces in particular, where I get to share how I'm showing up in relationship and how I don't wanna show up anymore, I hear myself saying, and these men are there to witness me.

And there is a level of accountability to others and to myself when I say one thing and I do another.

Speaker 4: Yeah. I think that, as you said, mentorship is really important, but also your comment about approval. Like, you know, in, in your case, Kat wasn't looking to approve or disapprove what you were doing, right?

Like, she just wanted to know what it was. Yeah. But some people might be in a partnership where their [00:26:00] partner might actually say, "I don't want you to do this. I don't want you to do that," right? And, and that's an agreement that maybe they have made together. But, you know, it's funny, like, I feel like if you want to actually do what you want to do, lying is never in your favor, right?

Because the reason why your partner might tell you, "Oh, I don't want you to do this. I don't want you to do that," or restrict you, is precisely because they don't trust you, because you have been lying, right? So, like, in your head, it's like, "Oh, I don't want to come and tell my partner that I want to do this or that I did this," because I don't want them to say, "I don't want you to be with that person," or, "I don't want you to do this thing," right?

But if you don't tell them, and then they catch you, that's when they start becoming controlling. That's when they start, right? Like, if you just come at the conversation honestly, they might say, "Actually, you know, wait a little bit," or, "I feel more comfortable if you do it in this way." You might not be able to do it exactly in the way you want to do it, but the more you lead with honesty and integrity, the more your partner is going to be permissive [00:27:00] and the more your partner is going to be okay with you doing whatever you want to do, 'cause I do see a lot of people caught in that dynamic, right?

Of distrust and, uh, white lies or obfuscation or whatever it is. So Natalie, let's turn to you. So we already heard a little bit about Kat and Joshua's background and, and kind of where they were coming into relationship with one another. What's your journey like? Where were you at in your non-monogamous journey when you met them?

Speaker 3: So I had entered this relationship with Joshua first, but I had met them together, and I was 23 at the time. 20- 23. Hmm, maybe 26. 22? Oh my God. I don't even know. Anyway, I was

Speaker 5: young.

Speaker 3: I was 22. She

Speaker 6: was, she was young. She

Speaker 3: was young. And yeah, I had no idea what to expect in terms of what my relationship to being in a polyamorous relationship would look like.

So when I walked into this relationship with, with Joshua, [00:28:00] and then I entered the relationship with Kat and we became a trio, my difficulty came around, again, jealousy, but how And who they are interacting with affect me and my relationship to them. So it did have to involve a lot of insecurity and developing a relationship with myself and, and learning what it meant to be whole as well as them being whole with other people.

So it felt like for a while I was receiving a deficit until I could see the perspective that I was actually receiving an abundance But for a while it was, it was really difficult. I never really had... It was, it was rather seamless entering the relationship with the three of them, but it was difficult entering the relationship with the three of them and then having additions added on top of that, especially when it came to partners who were my same age.

Speaker 6: In the beginning.

Speaker 3: In the beginning, yeah.

Speaker 6: Yeah. Mm. We, uh, I had multiple power exchange relationships, some submissives that I was in power exchange relationships with at the same time, [00:29:00] and those relationships have come to their r- respective ends over time. But they operated separate from our relationship.

Speaker 3: Then I'm, I'm just gonna compare. If I don't know better, especially at that time when I was delving into this unconsciously without anything to compare to other relationship styles that I had, 'cause my parents were, were monogamous growing up, and Catholic, then I had no other choice in those moments it felt like, than to compare what I was given and what I was receiving to what others were receiving.

And we've been in that dynamic for, for three years now, me as a

Speaker 4: submissive. Mm-hmm. Yeah, and, and Natalie, you mentioned that it was especially acute with people your own age. Why do you think that was?

Speaker 3: Because that's a closer comparison. Mm-hmm. If someone's far from my age, then it's less of a comparison. I have less to compare it to.

If it's closer to me, then it's like, oh, it can be, I can be replaced. This person can take my place and, and what's my use in, in this [00:30:00] scenario? And that came from the place of me not knowing or me not being able to see the wholeness and the abundance of, of what was actually happening, and my own traumatic res- res- response to, or reaction to growing up and having jealousy with a brother.

Speaker 4: So what helped you with that jealousy and comparison as you- Um ... moved along the journey? 'Cause also- It's- It was- ... 22 is very young, you know? Like I feel like it must have been difficult to navigate emotionally.

Speaker 3: Oh, yeah. It was extremely difficult. I was in my head. I was having conversations in my head before I was having conversations in real life, and that's how I've learned over time the piece of, oh, let me stop that conversation really quick, quick, 'cause who am I having the conversation with?

It's, it's not me, it's my mind, and my mind... Anyway. So it's better to just have it in person, cut myself off. But what really helped me was to be able to see the continuum. Um, to be able to see that it's not, not necessarily it's not just me, but now I see the [00:31:00] person who I was experiencing that comparison to do the same thing with another person.

I'm like, "Oh, this is just the line. This is just how it, how it functions."

Speaker 4: Meaning, like, they were also getting jealous about someone else?

Speaker 3: Catalyst point better.

Speaker 5: Me- meaning when, you know, where, where, where you are in the, in the lineup, right? When you're the newest person, like, you have the most insecurity.

And then when the next person comes in after you, and then you watch them, they have the insecurity, and then you realize that you have less to be insecure about

Speaker 4: Right, like it's a human experience. Like, oh, why would they be insecure? Like, they're so great and so beautiful and blah, blah. And you're like, oh, I'm insecure too.

I could also be great and beautiful and amazing, right? And also feel insecure, right?

Speaker 5: Right. Well, and, and correct me if I'm wrong, part of what happens is you stepping into the idea of being an anchor partner.

Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.

Speaker 5: Right? And understanding that that's true, and that just took some time.

Speaker 4: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Speaker 5: Right?

And, like, so that anyone else that comes into the picture is not that.

Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.

Speaker 5: And so you have [00:32:00] nothing to be insecure about or nothing to be afraid of.

Speaker 3: Well, I also just learned y- yes, I also just learned that there's, like, it's impossible to be replaceable. No one can replace me other than me, and there's n- there's not two of me, so it's just not gonna work.

Speaker 4: Yeah.

Speaker 5: But I think this fear of replacement is a big thing that comes up for people.

Speaker 4: Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 6: And by that what she means is she has all the passwords to the emails. No, I'm kidding, I'm kidding. I'm not going

Speaker 5: away.

Speaker 6: Nothing's gonna get done. You're not... Nothing will get done. You're irreplaceable.

Speaker 4: Yeah, you know if he was to do anything, you, you got all the power for revenge- Yeah

you know? So- '

Speaker 5: Cause we're all advised ...

Speaker 4: um. So, so I'm curious to hear how, 'cause it sounds like first it was separate relationships, right? Like Joshua was with Kat, and then he met Natalie, and then that went on for a while. How-

Speaker 6: Natalie was number six at a point when she first came on, like, 'cause I had, I had four other power exchange relationships and Kat.

And, uh, so when she came on it was like, there was a [00:33:00] lot going on. And- Over the years, again, those relationships, they ended. I just, I wanted to point, 'cause it wasn't just one plus one plus one. There was like a whole ecosystem of relationships-

Speaker 3: Context ...

Speaker 6: that she stepped into. And that's where a lot of the comparison was because I would have to go and spend time with...

My, my conflict in all of that, which I don't recommend poly to my worst enemy, is I had to divide myself and live different lives in some instances, and I didn't like that because I wanted to be home sharing my life with everyone who I- I'm connected to. And to have to separate them the way that it was happening just didn't, it didn't sit well with me.

And, and I was also seeing the effects it had on our relationships. And not to say we don't have our individual time, because we do, but it felt like totally isolated relationships from the, the picture itself.

Speaker 5: Yeah. And, and they were. I mean, some of the people that [00:34:00] you were in relationships with had and wanted, and that was the grounds for them, is to have totally separate relationships from me or from now Natalie too.

And, and I think that was, that was hard.

Speaker 6: Yeah. Through trying things, I learned what I didn't want. Yeah. And it's like understanding that we're not gonna get it right the first time, and that's okay as long as we're giving it our best shot.

Speaker 4: Yeah, it can be hard when you have separate relationships. I mean, I can only imagine six.

How did you go from, again, dating separately, the two of them, to Natalie, you entering kind of the dynamic with, with Joshua and Kat? How did that happen? And-

Speaker 3: Well, I think what I was struggling with in the beginning, and I mentioned it earlier, was the, the relationship that I really had as my influence and my example was the one with my parents.

So I really struggled with my relationship with Kat because I was comparing my relationship with her to the relationship I have with [00:35:00] my mom for an extended period of time. So when it came to intimacy and when it came to sex and when it came to being with both of them, I was unconsciously unaware that I, that I had this block in front of me.

Until I was aware of it and then I could choose otherwise, and I could choose to challenge my relationship with what was actually causing me to struggle in that, in our relationship. And then once I started challenging that and I was able to see that it wasn't me and her, but it was me and my mom, then we were able, and I was able to move forward into building a relationship with three people and not just building a relationship with one to one or...

Yeah

Speaker 4: And how did you realize that?

Speaker 3: How did I realize that? Therapy?

Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.

Speaker 3: I'm not sure. I, I don't remember the exact moment. It's funny 'cause I don't even remember that. You mentioned, whoever mentioned at the beginning that we weren't sleeping in the same bed, I, I completely forgot about it 'cause it all feels se- seamless now that I look back on it.

Speaker 6: It was, it wasn't long from the time we moved [00:36:00] upstairs to the time we moved in and then you had the room. Like, it was all within months. And then the separation of the sleeping in the two rooms and-

Speaker 3: Mm-hmm ...

Speaker 6: and, and what that was building up. And then came the acknowledgement of why there's a wall. And then I remember saying, "We just need time."

Speaker 3: Yeah. And I was also comparing, again, comparing what my sexual relationship was with Joshua and being like, "Well, I can't be in a relationship with Kat because our sexual relationship isn't the same as that." It's a different type of intimacy, and it wasn't the type of intimacy that I was expecting or, like, coming into the relationship with.

So I had this expectation, and it wasn't being fulfilled, but I didn't need the expectation at all 'cause there wa- there wasn't anything to be expecting. It was just let me be here, let me be present, and let's see how our relationship flows as it is.

Speaker 6: It, it sounds like it was almost like a projection on what it's supposed to look like.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Speaker 6: Absolutely. If I'm here with him, then this is must be what it looks like with what I'm with her. And that time of, of unpacking, of therapy, of talking it through, of [00:37:00] the relationship you guys built around the mentorship or... Now, now it's called romanteship But it's like I've, I've got to sit and watch time go by because when whenever there was conflict, she was the one who she was talking to.

So it was like this became the support. They, they became the support for each other. And ultimately it's like it allowed us our space to talk and to process so that we can get over the humps that we needed to.

Speaker 5: Yeah. At a certain point I became aware of the thing that Natalie's talking about in terms of how being in a relationship with me was mirroring an aspect of her relationship with her mom that at a certain point wasn't quite yet resolved.

And so at Joshua's advice, I just sat back and gave everything time. And I had a lot of practice with that through all the other relationships up until then. You know, and, and I had a, a lot more comfort [00:38:00] with it at that point. People used to accuse me of being jealous, and I had a therapist once say, "Are you afraid someone's gonna take him from you?"

And I've never been afraid that anyone's gonna take him from me. That's never been the issue. And she's like, "Well, it's not jealousy. I'm sure it's something, but it's not jealousy." And, you know, that was really validating for me because I've never really experienced myself as being jealous. I've just experienced myself as, like I said, needing information or needing to know.

I- I've, I've always been confident, but the things that have been brought up for me over the course of his other relationships brought me to a place where I was really able to just kinda calmly give Natalie the time that she needed to walk through whatever she needed to walk through to get comfortable with being here.

I mean, she clearly wanted to be here and needed to just work through what she was experiencing and how she was feeling until she could get to a place of greater ease and comfort, which she ultimately has. And I'm grateful that I have that bandwidth to be able to do that, and, and that's [00:39:00] hard, one, for me over time to be able to do that.

Speaker 3: Yeah. And I'm grateful that- Yeah ... you gave me permissions. Mm-hmm. And she provoked me at times, too, at the right times. Like, you know, we can always cuddle together on the couch, you know? Like, little small things over a period of time when she saw that I was making strides, at least that's how my interpretation of it was.

So I was provoked in, in good ways at the right times.

Speaker 4: Yeah. So tell me a little bit more, Natalie, how did your relationship with Kat mirror your relationship with your mom? And I might also note that you do have an age gap, right? So Kat, if you don't mind me asking, like, how old are you? Natalie, you seem to be, like, 26.

Did I calculate that right?

Speaker 5: Yeah, about.

Speaker 4: Yeah.

Speaker 5: And I'm

Speaker 4: 62.

Speaker 5: Yeah. Oh.

Speaker 4: Yeah, and you're 62, right? So there's- Right ... there's a big age gap, right?

Speaker 5: 26 and 62.

Speaker 4: Oh. Oh, I see. Nice. And I

Speaker 5: think she's... Oh, I'm actually older than your mom. I think

Speaker 3: so, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, my mom's 60. Yeah.

Speaker 4: Right. So, you know, it makes sense that that might be the case, and I'm not saying that it was because of the age, [00:40:00] right?

But I do think that that might have played a little part in it. So I'm curious, Natalie, what was exactly that, what was going on that was making you kind of mirror your relationship with your mom?

Speaker 3: So I think the biggest piece was the sleeping together and being, like, cuddly romantic. That was what was the most difficult.

The other part of it was the expectation piece. This is what I expect the relationship to look like sexually, intimately, romantically, and what am I trying to fulfill here, and me filling in the blanks for all of that. But personally, when I grew up, I was very much attached to my mom, and my brother was attached to my father.

So when I grew up, I slept with my mom until I was, like, 13, until I went to high school. Mm. A very long time. I also don't have a ton of memories from growing up, and they've been, they've been recovering over time due to sexual trauma. So I have a lot of, of questions up until now, and I still do. And what I've found for myself is it's not about why, but it's about when.

When did this [00:41:00] happen to me for the first time, not necessarily why am I feeling this way. That puts me into a position of I should be feeling another way and not this way, but, but where can I place it in my history. So it's more about the sleeping together and the sleeping arrangements, and for a while, I had difficulty not knowing who was gonna be sleeping in the bed, and I needed to know who was sleeping there because it was such a, like, s- not spiritual place, but there's a word for it.

It was a place where I needed to know what was happening, whatever was happening if I wasn't there. So yeah, that's how I,

Speaker 5: how it,

Speaker 4: we made the next step. So it seems like for you, Natalie, cuddling with Kat was, you know, bringing back memories of, you know, cuddling with your mom, and it's hard to be in a sexual space, right?

What made you be like, "Okay, like I want to actually be part of this dynamic with the two of them," as opposed to just continuing your relationship with Joshua?

Speaker 3: I, well, I did say that I wanted to have my own bed and my own room [00:42:00] and my own sleeping arrangements, and I don't remember the turning. I think I was just witnessing our relationship over time when we were living together, and what I can believe to be true to myself is me thinking, "Well, why, why am I experiencing this?"

Or, or, "Maybe this is because of this, and let me just try to push it and see, see where I go from there." But I also know that what you, like provoking me a bit and asking for permissions and, and us like committing to working on our relationship together was also a big piece to that. But I, I can't remember a huge turning point for myself.

I can only really remember where we're at now. Um-

Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it seems like it is like, like everything, you know, a process. I do wanna go back to something you mentioned because I've also experienced that. Well, recently I've discovered I also like domming, but generally speaking, I've been more in a sub dynamic.

So with my non-non-cover partner last year, w- when we had a threesome for the first [00:43:00] time, I remember feeling like, oh, well, we've been in this dynamic where his attention has been on me, and dom sub dynamic and, and like how are we going to add a person into that dynamic, right? And I know that there's ways to, for, for the dom to dominate two people or whatever, but that wasn't really her style or, like, what she liked.

And I remember it being a little bit difficult for me to be like, "Oh, it's not what I expected it to be." I was expecting for more of that domination that is what I was used to, and also going on that process of, like, having to let go of expectations and just be like, "Okay, this is a different dynamic.

Let's see what the three of us can create," as opposed to, "This is what I'm used to, this is what I like," and, and, like, being afraid to, like, lose that. So how was that process for you, and how did you then get into the groove of the dynamic between the three of you?

Speaker 3: Yeah. I also-- I grew up being rather frivolous with sex and [00:44:00] having sex with lots of people all the time randomly.

Sometimes just walking down the street and being like, "You wanna fuck?" And that was kind of how my relationship with sex was. Until I was in a relationship with someone and other people who I started having feelings for and who I had care for. And then I had the feeling of, again, what you were saying, expectations.

There should be attention to me. This is how it should be. This is how much attention should be given to each person. Until I realized for myself I needed to release that. But it's, it's funny 'cause you have a book written about you, and in one of the first rules of Master Joshua is if, if you're not into group sex, you should probably find someone else to be in a relationship with, and that's kind of true.

And there's always the option, at least I give myself, I think for everyone, this is human permission. I never have to engage. I never have to be in a group sex setting. But it does feel like I will be left out if I don't. And it felt like that for a very long time until it didn't. Until I realized that [00:45:00] I have my own life, I have my own things that I wanna do, that I want to accomplish, that I wanna work on and work through and processes, and it's okay if I don't want it today 'cause it's gonna happen probably tomorrow or the day after that.

But in the beginning, especially when we started having new people enter in, it was difficult because every time we were having any form of sex or play, it always involved the other person, and it was never really- One to one anymore. It was always one, two, three, and then the attention did feel like it was always on another person.

And that's also new relationship energy, so I had to give myself the permission that this is a new relationship that they're in, and this is how it's going to be until it's not, until I look at it through a different lens, and until it moves forward into something else.

Speaker 4: You mean with Joshua's other partners at first?

Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. I never really had too much of any, too much of a complication with, with you two having sex. But I also, again, never had [00:46:00] the example growing up of my parents having sex, so it always was sacred or it was always probably from Catholicism as well. It was coming from that angle, but also from them.

I never witnessed or ever heard them, or never saw them being intimate or close, cuddling, touching, ever. So whenever I witnessed it, it was like, "Oh, it must be extremely special." So I think that's what I witnessed you two at first, stepping into. It was like, "Oh, that's special." And then I was like, "Oh, then what does it mean for me?"

And so I would go into this again, this, this inner dialogue and talk myself into a hole, and then I would shut down

Speaker 5: Mm-hmm Until you realized that it was special for you too.

Speaker 3: Until I realized that it's special for everyone and it's okay. The more the merrier. Okay, let's, let's finish off on a good note.

Speaker 4: Yeah, and how, how did you... What helped you come to that realization?

Speaker 3: Well, Kat, She just walked me out of it, has helped me a lot in the, in this, in the, in the coming of, of who I am and being able to see what's [00:47:00] actually in front of me rather than me placing assumptions or me guessing and having these conversations in my head.

I was actually able to say everything that was happening in my head out loud, and she would help me untangle them. So through, through Kat and through other people who I've, I just was able to be truthful. I think, I think what I've learned in non-monogamy and polyamory is the difference between being honest and being truthful and truth telling and transparency, and those three are really what I've learned to differentiate between.

And even though I was being honest, I wasn't being truthful and I wasn't telling the truth, and I... Yeah, it was, it was really extremely beneficial to be able to feel like I had the permission and the ability to do so.

Speaker 6: My mistake in all of this is I've, I've, uh, not... Mistake, yeah, is the difference between polyamorous and polysexual, and it's taken me a long time 'cause as I'm hearing you guys share this, like, man, I've subjected you [00:48:00] guys to shit because of A, B, C, X, Y, and Z.

And you've chosen and shit like that, but it's like imagine if it didn't have to be so complicated on an emotional load, and that's because whatever's driving me is of the flesh. It's like it's of desire. It's of what I want versus what do I need? And if I spent so much less time complicating your emotions, we could be doing so much more in other areas.

Speaker 3: But you were being truthful. I was just not able

Speaker 6: to see. No, no, no. It's not, it's not even that. It's I'm truthful but in my own lust. It's like I was leading with desire as opposed to a larger picture, right? And so it's like the hurdles that you guys had to jump through emotionally just to be on a baseline of okay with me in a relationship is, is kinda fucking intense.

Speaker 3: I'm grateful. I'm grateful.

Speaker 6: I've, I- Thank you so much. It's, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not... I'm not trying to say I would do anything different. Mm. It's just I'm finally seeing how much work [00:49:00] has to go into this, that-

Speaker 5: Mm ...

Speaker 6: it's labor intensive

Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, you being able to name polysexual versus polyamory is the big deal, and that, and that couldn't have come to you at, at any other- Absolutely

time than when it, when it did. And there's nothing wrong with you being lustful and wanting to have sex and, and wanting to have-

Speaker 6: But when I hear-- like, when I hear you guys, what you guys have to go through emotionally and mentally, it's like, yeah, it does mean that to some degree. Like, how much do I wanna subject folks to that simply because I want that person or this chemistry or that-

Speaker 4: Well, you know, it sounds like you also learned, Joshua, that as, as much as there's nothing wrong with you being lustful and having desire, that you don't necessarily need six partners, or not partners, six sexual partners, right?

And, you know, partly it is because of what we talked about not wanting to have these six different pockets of people, right? But partly it's also because of, of Natalie and Kat, not that they [00:50:00] couldn't handle that. They learned to, and they're grateful for the experience. But you realize that it is a lot of work.

Like, the more people, the more work, whether you are polyamorous or polysexual, right? And I do think that sounds like from what I'm hearing, that distinction was helpful because that helped Natalie and Kat see those relationships as sexual and maybe less threatening to them, where, you know, they are anchor partners and they are polyamorous partners, and the other ones are your polysexual partners, right?

And, and that distinction helped. But I think that it's a process that you, you had to go through, the three of you, and I'm like, I'm really, you know, grateful that you, you know, you are sharing the journey, and it sounds like you've learned a lot from it. I do wanna go back to your story because I realize I didn't ask about Kat's side when Natalie entered the, the picture.

So, so Kat, what was it like for you? Because you were the one anchor partner, right? And, and for Joshua to be like, "Oh, now there's [00:51:00] this other person" that, you know, sounds like from the beginning you were like, "Oh, she's great," but that doesn't mean that you want her in your bed and in your life and, like, living with you, right?

Like, I think a lot of us like to feel like we are the one and only anchor, right? And, and how was your process letting go of that identity of your relationship with Joshua and making space for Natalie?

Speaker 5: Well, I think that Natalie was finally like an answer to a prayer in some ways, right? Like, Natalie was, for me, Natalie was like seventh or eighth or ninth or whatever in the string of people that I'd watched Joshua either be with, be with and let go of, et cetera, et cetera.

But most of the people-

Speaker 6: Wow.

Speaker 5: Most of the other people in some small way or whatever begrudged my, who I was. I, I've been the primary partner, the ma- the anchor partner always, and I've known that. Even when Joshua wasn't really- ... on board with that, I knew that it was true. The, the other, but the other partners begrudged [00:52:00] that 'cause they wanted to be the anchor partner really.

They- Ah. No one ever said it, but again, my hypervigilance, I like know what's happening with, with things when they're happening. And, and I think I always had room in me for there to be another person to come on board and be genuinely on board, and for me, honestly, I could say that that probably extends to more than one other person.

But I need to not feel like I'm being begrudged for being here, right? And, and that's, that was the problem for me. When Natalie came in, she knew that I was here. She never came with the energy that said, "Oh, I wanna replace you," right? And so many of the other partners would come with this energy of like they'd replace me if they could.

I mean, they all knew they couldn't 'cause that was never really an option, but there was always this edge of I wish you weren't here or whatever. And so it was a breath of fresh air for me to have a partner come in that said, you know, like, "No, I get that you're here. It's like cool that you're here." Like, "I don't want you [00:53:00] to not be here," you know?

And that was really lovely for me. And, and it sets a standard now because I don't know that I'll tolerate any more new partners that feel like that about me.

Speaker 6: I don't know if I'll tolerate- Newsflash ... any new partners, period.

Speaker 3: And there we have it.

Speaker 6: And there we

Speaker 5: have it. So it's been a journey.

Speaker 6: I laughed, I laughed because in the beginning from the breakup of the last ex where I hit a wall of I c- I couldn't not do what I needed to say and be who I needed to be, I, I had to stop the line.

And with Kat, I was like, "No labels. I need to be able to just exist." And she was like, "All right." But deep down it was like she was my safety. She was my, she was my safety I tell people she saved my life at

Speaker 4: that point Yeah, it does sound like Kat is kind of that grounding energy that, that you needed, Joshua, and that was really good for you.

But there's something [00:54:00] to say, Kat, also about your open-mindedness, right? Because again, I think a lot of people would have held on to your position, and you were like, "Natalie is open to me, and I'm open to her, and, like, let's figure this out, and let's have this very unconventional arrangement." So Kat, it sounds like, again, it was somewhat smooth for you when Natalie entered the picture because of her approach.

But just like, you know, Natalie struggled with jealousy with Joshua's, you know, new partners, sounds like at this point, J- Joshua had had a lot of new partners, so you were, like, more comfortable with that. But again, it's a little bit different when Natalie's coming into your home, et cetera. It's, it's a much closer relationship.

And there is the age gap, right? So I'm curious to hear, how was that for you, you know, like as a 62-year-old woman with a partner, for your partner to be like, "Okay, now we're including this 26-year-old..." I know at, at this point you were young. It was like three years ago, so the ages are off. But, you know- Sure

this [00:55:00] 20-something-year-old woman into the dynamic, has that caused any insecurities for you when it comes to your age and your body and, you know, anything like that? I mean, again, it sounds like you've done a lot of work to be very confident in yourself, but I, I, I've witnessed a lot of women, uh, and men experiencing that specific s- insecurity of, "Oh, my partner is dating someone younger."

And now j- just imagine if, like, you, you are, like, interacting 24/7 with that person that's younger and has these qualities that, that you might feel like you might be lacking when it comes to your age and physique and things like that.

Speaker 5: I think actually the opposite of that is true, 'cause the other thing that's happened for me is menopause.

Yeah. And with menopause has been a decrease in my own sexual drive, ability to function, et cetera, and I've been really grateful that there's Natalie. I'm super grateful that it doesn't all fall on me, that, like, navigating sexual desire is not just me and Joshua to do it by [00:56:00] ourselves and to sort it all out.

And again, it, it, it does come back to I'm not afraid of anybody taking anything from me while, you know, he's devoted to me, and I'm confident in that. You know, I have some, not insecurities, but I, I have, like, little fears, I guess, about aging just in general.

Speaker 4: Yeah. Who, who wouldn't,

Speaker 5: you know? It's like, it's the, it's like the great unknown, you know?

It's like, you know, I definitely am at that place where there's more time behind me than there is ahead of me, and I don't know what that's gonna look like, and so I have feelings about that. But it has nothing to do with Natalie and Joshua, and if anything, I'm grateful that I have both of them to be here with me and to help and support me

Speaker 4: Hmm.

Yeah, that's great. And it sounds like also if you are not in the mood, you know, or whatever, you can be like, "Okay, you guys have your fun. I..." You don't need to have that pressure. So it does sound like you do have moments. I mean, I'm curious, you know, you go... I, I assume you go on dates, the three of you, but [00:57:00] are you also like, "Okay, now the two of us are gonna go and have sex over here," and you go into the other room, or, "We're gonna have a date without you"?

Do you have anything like that ever?

Speaker 5: It's more like, you know, Natalie's getting ready to go away for 10 days, and I remind Joshua that he needs to go spend time with her, right? Or, like, Joshua and I get time while Natalie's doing something else. It's like the, the one-on-one time sort of naturally falls into the cadence of life, right?

'Cause we're not all doing the same thing all the time all together, right? So- 'Cause you're

Speaker 6: pursuing life.

Speaker 5: Right. 'Cause we're, we're pursuing life, and we're pursuing all kinds of things. And so we've found... I, I f- for me, I feel like we've found a rhythm around spending time. As far as, like, who's having sex with who, like, that can happen in the same bed.

Like, we have no issues with that. Like, we're very open in terms of, like, sexual practice.

Speaker 4: Like, one person's sleeping and the other two are- Fuck. Absolutely ... like, going at it. Um, yeah. And

Speaker 5: there's no issue with any of that. Or two people are sleeping- Two people ... and the other person's

Speaker 3: trying to fuck

Speaker 4: the [00:58:00] other person.

Speaker 6: Right, because If one doesn't wake up, I roll over to the other one. "Are you awake?"

Speaker 4: I love it. You, you got options. Well, I

Speaker 3: told that- I do, I do have to say that we, we do have to put time in our calendar to have date nights. Because we work together as well, a lot of our time, we, we do spend a lot of time together, but we don't have a lot of time where we don't talk about work, or we don't do anything work-related.

Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, i- again, as you started saying at the beginning of the conversation, like, you do whatever two people do, but you are three people, right? And, and I think that sometimes that can help demystify. So going back for a second, 'cause Natalie, you mentioned, you know, before, "I always wanted to be included."

I'm just thinking about, like, people who might be in a triad situation, right? And I imagine that that would probably be, like, one of the, like, main pain points of, you know, one of you feeling e- excluded at any given time. I, I'm, I'm curious if, like, any of you have any advice for, for people who might be in triads and [00:59:00] might be experiencing that feeling of, "Oh, my other two partners are doing this or that," or if there's anything else, more generally speaking, that you feel like triads might be struggling with that you, you know, you wish you knew before you became a, a throuple.

Speaker 5: I think the biggest thing that I've struggled with is what they call FOMO, you know, that fear of missing out sort of thing. Not fear of being left out, but fear of missing out. 'Cause I don't ever feel like I'm being intentionally excluded from anything, but due to circumstances, things come up. Not everybody can be everywhere and do everything, right?

And so the, the biggest help for me around that has been being given the freedom to say it when it's true, right? When it comes up for me to be able to say it and not be judged and not be told I shouldn't feel that way, and, you know, not be, you know, told to get over it or whatever. To have those feelings validated, and to be told that I'm still loved and, you know, that I'm welcome and, you know, [01:00:00] that for whatever reason, it's okay.

And I've done a lot of work around all of that whole FOMO stuff anyway, but just to be able to be honest about those kind of feelings when they come up, and then to be able to be received around those feelings in a way that's kind and loving.

Speaker 4: Yeah. Sometimes it's just naming it and getting that reassurance- Yeah

that can be helpful.

Speaker 3: I would say to continue to do the things that bring you life and make you happy outside of who you are with. Don't put all of your eggs into the baskets of the relationships that you're in. Continue to- Put eggs into the baskets of what you enjoy doing and, and to what you wanna be doing with your life on your own time by yourself.

That has been really important and helpful.

Speaker 6: One of my biggest things, and this is why a lot of the other relationships ended, is I become the focal point of the relationship and people were putting their own lives to the side because I'm in a relationship now. I have [01:01:00] to do this, I have to do that. And it's like at that point I had to f- I felt like I had to be present and I had to put my shit aside because now you want it.

Like, like I want each person to have their goals and the dreams separate from me. I don't want the relationship to be so blinding that everything else gets put, put to the side because now we're here. It's like there's still a life to be lived and being able to separate myself from the larger picture has been difficult.

When we have a night off, it's like, "Well, what do you wanna do?" I don't even know my fucking self Because I'm s- I've been in relationships. It's like, well, what does Joshua like separate from everybody else? I guess the advice is don't lose yourself in the relationships.

Speaker 4: Yeah, and I think that a lot of people might, uh, unconsciously approach polyamory because of that, right?

Because they don't love being with themselves, and they love who they are in relationship more than they love who [01:02:00] they are as people outside of relationship, right? And, and so I think that that's a great point. Okay, so now tell me about The Kink Collective. We'll- we've been alluding to it. That's your business.

That's what you do in New York. I, I don't know if you do events elsewhere, but tell us a little bit about what it is and kind of what each of your role is in, in that business.

Speaker 5: The Kink Collective started as a leather family when we started it. Uh, it was a group of like-minded people who shared the same values and same interests in, in kink and otherwise.

And then over time, it morphed into, like, an organization where we do- we host events, and we teach, and we do online education, all in the service of helping people to reframe their relationship with identity and sexuality. M- My role is sort of the, you know, as you would imagine, based on even the age categories, I sort of run the ship.

You know, I have the most business experience. I, I, [01:03:00] and I do the business side of things, and so I sort of have a more behind-the-scenes role in that way, although I, I s- fully participate in all of the facilitation. We do a, a weekend in-person intensive. We do an online 12-week mentorship program, and I fully show up and facilitate those things.

But I'm also the one, like, you know, tweaking the website and getting those kind of dots connected.

Speaker 6: We help people learn how to build relationships where they're safe, seen, and heard at the end of the day. It's like by the time people get to us, they have all their ducks in a row. They've got the degrees.

They've got everything that life was supposed to do, they did. The relationships aren't lining up. We're the ones who help them learn how to make relationships that last, where they're not showing up with masks The reason why though is because we had to do that work for ourselves so that I could want to live and be alive as opposed to just, just being here.

Ultimately, that's where I was until I met [01:04:00] Kat. I was just here. I didn't want to leave. I was just alive. And through our hard work and what she showed me was possible in relationships through putting into practice the practices of BDSM and leather culture. Don't lie, don't cheat, don't steal, don't be a dick, right?

Tell the truth, be transparent. All the, all the be a good person shit that I was teaching other people I couldn't embody in my closest personal relationships, and Kat was the first one that I did that with. 'Cause I could teach other people how to do it, and they could fly a thousand miles an hour, but I couldn't do it.

So what Kat and I were doing on our own work, we were reverse engineering so that we could create and show other people how to do it, and that's where we landed. Now, I create the frameworks and the programs So I do a lot of the reverse engineering ...

Speaker 3: things on social media design and strategy and helping to find a, a through line in where we're going and direction.

There's so [01:05:00] much that can be taken from kink, BDSM, and leather and applied to every relationship. Self-advocacy, negotiating, power, influence. And so what my role has been recently has been to be online and be applying this information so that it's digestible for people and so that they can use it. And especially for those who don't know about kink, who don't know about BDSM, or maybe that throws them off a bit, but then they're able to realize, oh, wait a second, this isn't just about sex.

This isn't just about physical intimacy. It's, it's ab- about much more than that.

Speaker 6: She's also our, our manager.

Speaker 3: Yeah. "

Speaker 6: Nasty, you have a call in five minutes. Get off." Appoint-

Speaker 4: Good. Yeah, I mean, I think there's a lot of benefits of... I know that, you know, this is also a business relationship, [01:06:00] but obviously it came about also from the intimate relationship that you have, and I think there's a lot of benefits of having a triad where there's three people, right?

That each bring their own skills and their own ways to help the other two, right? It's come with some complications, as we've talked about, but it also s- seems like it's come with a lot of benefits and a lot of growth. I will make sure that people have that link in the show notes for your Instagram, your website, whatever links you- Yeah

you, you'd like to share so that people can connect with you and go to your events.

Speaker 5: Yeah, no, I, I always recommend people go to the website, and we have something there called the Desire Clarity Kit. It's a free resource that we love to make available to people. So they can go to kinkcollective.net and click on the, to, to get that as a free download.

And, and then, you know, they can have that at their fingertips

Speaker 4: I'll definitely add that link to the show notes. Awesome. Okay, so last question . What would you tell to a polycurious person? So that can be- Don't do [01:07:00] it ... yourselves. I mean, honestly, I've been there recently where I'm like, is it worth it? Because, you know, w- we've talked about all the growth that has come from it, but, you know, the way I like to put it is like, you know, you grow a lot by challenging yourself to do a marathon.

Does that mean you should be doing a marathon? Yeah. Maybe not. Maybe that's not what you want to spend your time doing. I do think that it's not do it or don't do it. It's like if you're gonna do it, know that you're going to grow a lot, but it's going to be a lot of work. And whether you wanna do that work right now or not, you know, it's on you.

Poly's a lot. Poly can be a lot.

Speaker 5: The words- For sure ... the words that come, the words that come to mind for me is go slow and be more honest than you have ever been before in your life.

Speaker 6: I would, I would say why. Yeah. Yeah. Ask yourself why. What is it that you're looking for, and does that fall into alignment with the person you wanna be?

Mm-hmm. [01:08:00] 

Speaker 3: I would emphasize curiosity and remain curious throughout your exploration. And don't dive into questioning who you are too much. I would just remain more curious and open rather than going in with certainty. Yeah. Expectations.

Speaker 5: Yeah. And to keep in mind that things change, even personally. Like, where I am now is very different than where I was 10 years ago, right?

The things that I thought I needed, the things that I thought I had to have, the things that I thought were the way things were supposed to be has, has all changed so much in ways I never could have imagined or a- anticipated. And so wherever you are now, just keep in mind that if you do go down this road and you keep going and you, you are open and honest and do all this stuff, whatever you think and feel right now is gonna be different.

It's gonna change. And, and things that you didn't think you'd be okay with, you get okay [01:09:00] with. Things that you thought were okay, you get un-okay with. Like, it all changes over time. Then I would defer to the whole curiosity thing. Even approach yourself with a certain degree of curiosity to see how you develop as you go along.

Speaker 4: Yeah. Well, we're ending Polycurious with curiosity. I love it. M- they very much believe in that philosophy. So thank you so much for sharing so vulnerably. So I really appreciate your, your honesty. I

Speaker 6: appreciate your line of questions. It was very, very... They were awesome. Thank you so much. Thank you. Yeah.

Thank you. And for the opportunity