Natalie: [00:00:00] I don't feel like my partner cares any less about me, that wouldn't be there for me if I needed him. But he has made a choice to spend his, his resources, his time, his energy, his physicalities with somebody who he feels that he connects with better, and, you know, I want him to be happy.

 and I don't really wanna be in a relationship with somebody who is not, you know, all in,

 I also discovered a lot about what I need in a relationship, what I want, and feeling desired is a really important part.

Fer: Hi, everyone. I am Fer, relationship coach and your host, and today I am talking to Natalie Davis. She is the author of Saying Yes: My Adventures in Polyamory, her memoir about her experience opening up her marriage in her 40s on the heels of her husband's [00:01:00] affair. And today we talk about what that was like for her, forgiving her husband and deciding to move forward with the relationship, and even being open to non-monogamy

When society maybe expected her to get a divorce and give up on their relationship. we also talk about her life today, and that includes living with her metamour.

She has been living with her metamour, her husband's partner for about five years, and they are great friends, I had tons of questions about this, and we really get into all of the details of how the arrangement works. And also she talks about her experience living with another metamour before this one that didn't work quite as well.

So even if you are not planning on living with your metamour, I think that you are going to find this conversation fascinating, first of all, and also perhaps feel identified if you've ever had any tension with your [00:02:00] metamour.

Or on the other hand, if your metamour has added a lot to your life. We don't get to talk about that until the end, so please do listen all the way through. But before that, we talk about Natalie's most recent breakup with a partner that she was with for nearly a decade.

And in this case, her partner actually started dating someone else, and partly because of that, he ended up having less time for Natalie. And while he was still willing to continue a partnership, he did not want physical intimacy to be part of the partnership anymore. So Natalie had to make the difficult decision to say no to what he was offering.

And I feel like a lot of us can identify with that in the non-monogamous world, right? Because non-monogamy allows us to design our relationship, And that can include or not include whatever we'd like. but [00:03:00] often what our partner might be able to offer is not necessarily what we want, right?

So you might be in a situation where a partner is offering you a certain amount of time or a certain amount of commitment, and you might not be on board with that. And while you might love the person and want to spend time with them and wish you could make things work, you might need to make the difficult decision to break up when they are not giving you what you need.

Natalie is not only an author, she is also involved with the organization Open. you might have seen them on Instagram or heard about them.

They are an organization that advocates for the legal protections of non-monogamous people. so they are working to advance laws to, for example, protect people from b-being discriminated against at work or fired because of their non-monogamous identity. So if you are interested in learning more about their work, to see how you can get [00:04:00] involved or to check out the work that they might be doing in your area, you can go to their website open dash learn more.

You can find that link in the show notes, as well as the link to read or listen to Natalie's memoir. and if you are interested in booking an exploratory call with me for coaching, if you've been struggling in your non-monogamous journey and would like to meet up either individually or with your partner or partners, you can also find in the show notes a link to book that.

Before we start, I just want to remind you that if you resonate with what you hear today or you think of someone that might benefit from this podcast and this episode in particular, please do share it.

While there are more and more resources for non-monogamous people, we are all still needing help, and someone might really appreciate you sending them [00:05:00] this podcast.

Okay guys, let's get into it. Here is my interview with Natalie Davis Natalie, welcome to Polycurious. so good to connect. I was really interested talking to you reading your book.

I think so awesome that you are one of those women that are coming out with their experiences and, and talking about it and creating conversation around it. So I can't wait to dive into today's interview

Natalie: Thank you, Fernanda. I'm looking forward to talking to you. I've been, listening to your podcast, and you've had some very interesting conversations, so I'm ready to jump in

Fer: Oh, amazing. I love that you listened. yeah, it's interesting the world we live in today, right? Where we hadn't met until now, but then we know about each other lives because of the podcast and the book and everything, so that's really awesome. so I guess maybe let's start there. Maybe let's start a little bit with the book.

So for people who [00:06:00] are just new to you and to your book, can you tell us a little bit about what your book is all about and, and kind of what you were hoping to put out in the world with it?

Natalie: Sure I never thought I was going to write a book. I've written plenty of legal briefs, but, um, writing a book was not really on my radar. and I was having these experiences and realizing that there wasn't a book, there wasn't a narrative, there wasn't anything that I could rely on.

 and I thought, "Well, I can't be the only person, the only Gen X woman who was, you know, told that she could have a career, have a family, find her one true love, and do all the things, and go on this pretty narrow, predictable path."

 and I thought that would be happiness, that would be fulfillment. And then there was a bit of a detour, a crossroads actually in [00:07:00] my life, about what I was going to do with my relationship, and I made a choice that I didn't think I would, and a lot of people might have thought was crazy, odd, perverted even, about choosing to explore non-monogamy with my partner and not leaving my partner after infidelity.

 you hear, okay, well, there's infidelity, then that's the end of the relationship. Um, and you get divorced, and you go your separate ways, and your kid spends weekends one place and weekdays another place, and your life is pretty much upended.

 and they don't talk about, well, is there another way? What if you still love each other? What if you still see yourself having a life together? and what if your partner wants to explore non-monogamy? Is that something that you have space for? Is that something that you can consider? How do you go about doing that?

What are the boundaries? What is the roadmap? I had [00:08:00] none. So all of these things I went through.

and started just writing down some of my stories. And then thought, "Well, you know, maybe I could... Maybe this would be of benefit to someone else."

and I've always been drawn to memoirs,

I think as a world, you know, learning about each other helps us to understand and to not just tolerate, but to accept other points of view and other ways that people live their lives, and I'm hoping that, this book is helping with that a bit

Fer: Yeah, totally. I, I identify with that. I love memoirs too. Actually, for, like, a whole year, I only read women's memoirs because I feel like we don't have that many examples. I think that interestingly, in non-monogamy, most of the memoirs are by women. you know, there's, like, one by a man, The Risk, which I also interviewed on Polycurious.

Natalie: Yeah. I just finished that one. That's a good one. Mm-hmm.

Fer: it great to get the male perspective, [00:09:00] and I'll link in notes the, episode with the, the author, for people who want to hear more about masculinity and non-monogamy his journey. but yeah, I think that more generally speaking in society, have that many examples of, like, women's stories or, you know, like usually the hero's journey is a man in, in TV or whatever, right?

So it's, like, always great to connect with other women. And I think especially for you, I mean, there's also, I think the name is Open, Molly Roden Winters', memoir.

Natalie: More,

I think hers is called More. Mm-hmm

Fer: More. I think there's another one maybe that's called Open, but, but yeah.

Natalie: There are a couple called Open, yes.

Fer: Um, just like Molly, like, you are also a mom, right? And that that's a perspective that's really great to have that, you know, you started exploring with a kid, married, as you said, as a Gen X-er.

 I think there's, a [00:10:00] lot of value in also saying, like, "Hey, you can also, be in your 40s or 50s or whatever and want to explore non-monogamy," right? So I know in your case you got with your husband in college, I believe, right? So, um, and I know that, when you first opened up, it was in the context of coming out of him having been unfaithful and, having forgiven him for the infidelity.

 so yeah, tell us a little bit about that because one of the questions that I had for you is how were you able to trust? And I know I heard you talking in another podcast about how when he first brought up the idea, which I think was in the context of "It's my birthday, let's go to a sex or something like that.

Natalie: A

Fer: it was only, like, maybe, like, about, I- if I remember correctly, about, half a year after the affair, right? So you were probably still a little bit sensitive around that. But your perspective, instead of being like, "Oh, again? he [00:11:00] wants to go back to that? I thought we were over that. why am I not enough?"

Right? that's where a lot of people go.

Natalie: what made you be like, "Okay,We're gonna do this.Well, my husband and I have always been just equal partners, and we share our lives, and we've always been honest with each other.

And it also wasn't one of these things where I felt that he didn't love me, that, you know, there are couples that no longer have physical relationships, and that wasn't the case with us. we still were connecting, but I knew that there was a part of him that wanted something more, something additional.

And I understood that this wasn't to replace me. I think in his mind, and I've talked to him about this, when he was cheating, I said, what hurt was that you would take this risk with our marriage and our relationship," because when you cheat, you know, there's a risk that that's the end of the relationship, and that's the part that hurt [00:12:00] because it said to me, like, what value do you place on our relationship if you're willing to risk it?

And he said, "Well, you know, I always thought our relationship was strong and that we would get through this. This would open up a conversation that," you know, we didn't have the tools to know how to talk about this ahead of time, I guess. And this is not the best way, because certainly I was hurt But it did open a discussion, and I did not feel that he didn't love me and value me after I got over, you know, more the humiliation of it.

It's kind of like I failed at my marriage. How is this gonna look to other people? I've always been an achiever, you know, a person who has a career and has a family and is someone who is dependable and a good friend to people. And a lot of this was just kind of about me. How does this make me look?

But when I

looked at our

of, like, "Was I not having enough sex with him? Was I not a good enough wife?"sure. of thing, yeah [00:13:00] And yeah, there definitely were issues with us not having as much sex as he wanted because I know I was a full-time working lawyer and mother and housekeeper and all of the things that women go through. And at the end of the day, you're like, "Oh, I still need to fold the laundry, and what do I need to do tomorrow?

and your husband loves you and finds you attractive and wants to be intimate with you, and you're, you're like, "I'm just tired." And, and he's feeling unattractive because I'm like, "I just would rather get, you know, a little bit more sleep."

 so working through that, I think that's pretty common with married couples, and we'd, you know, been married 10 or 15 years by then and been together even longer.

Fer: So today been together for, over 30 years at

Natalie: Yes. Yes. And I mean, and, and then I think about it now and I feel, you know, that he had to take that sort of rejection, right? Even though I still found him attractive, I still [00:14:00] loved him.

I wasn't prioritizing our physical relationship, and that's definitely one of his main love languages.

 As I say in my book, when he brought up going to a swinger club, this was something that we were doing together because...

And I didn't really know anything about swinging, like I maybe saw it in a movie. So this is something we are doing as a couple, and we would meet another couple. so it wasn't like he was going out on his own.

 So going to a swinger club where the idea would be to have sex with other people,

Surprisingly, when that happened and he was having sex with another woman right next to me, did not bother me. I was also having sex with a man right next to him.

 I guess about the trust part, after the affair, like he gave me the password to his phone and to his email, and I could look at anything I wanted.

Like he was a completely open book. He answered every question, every cross-examination , every tearful accusation, every ad hominem attack. Like he took it all and, like, tried to [00:15:00] explain and to move forward, and I just didn't feel like he was going to be lying to me. this was something we were gonna be doing together.

I didn't really worry about him having another affair, especially if we were exploring non-monogamy. And I thought, it's not fair of me to try to control every part of his life and what he needs. We only get one life, right? And if he has a need to explore other kinds of relationships, I'm not his mother.

I'm not his warden. That's not the kind of relationship I wanted. And we, you know, we've talked about this. He's like... I said, "Well, what if I had said no, I don't wanna do any of this?" And he said, "Well, I would not have been happy. I wouldn't have left you, but I would not have been happy."

And do I wanna be in a relationship with somebody who could be happy, but I'm standing in their way? And it's not really hurting me or taking anything away [00:16:00] from me, which is something I had to learn.

 why can't we appreciate love and connect with more than one woman? That doesn't lessen my connection with him. I mean, that can happen. They can decide that what they have with you is not what they want anymore, and what they have is something with someone else that they like better.

But if you have a good connection, adding other connections doesn't dilute your connection. It dilutes the time you have, and so that can have an effect. You have to manage that. But I had to learn all these things because in the monogamous narrative, that, we're just not taught that at all.

Fer: yeah, totally. you had a really good foundation. Sure, there was infidelity, but you still felt like you could trust him, you had good communication, you had a good sexual connection.

Like, it wasn't a situation where the affair was, kind of like a symptom of, a shaky ground in the relationship, right? Like, sure, maybe it was a symptom of lack of connection in that [00:17:00] moment in your life. but as you were saying, that's like so normal when you have been together for so long.

So you started as, uh, swingers. that went okay, but from what I read in the book, It wasn't necessarily what you, enjoyed the most.

So tell us a little bit about that evolution, so from going from swinging to dating on your own and what that like for you and the things that you discovered about yourself.

Natalie: So there was a point where, Eric was in the military and he was deployed, and so I was gonna be alone for most of a year. And he was very encouraging of me to explore on my own. Up until then, I hadn't really explored separately. And I was, I was going through a lot. I was gonna be a single parent while he was gone.

I had some health issues that I had to deal with. And I was like, "Yeah, I am not gonna worry about that." But after a few months, I mean, I missed him. I missed physical intimacy. and I reconnected with somebody who was [00:18:00] local, who we knew through the swinging scene.

 and that was, like, safe and easy because he was also a very good friend of mine. Like, we had just become friends, we weren't sleeping together. But he was someone that I talked about this polyamory and talked about the affair and, and Eric's first partner that I had trouble with, Lorraine, in the book.

 so that was one stepping stone into just having an encounter on my own. This was just me going on a date with another man, which was most likely gonna end up with a physical encounter.

 And I had a couple other encounters, while Eric was away and sort of understood what it was like and, and also appreciated what Eric was getting out of being with someone else because he had started dating somebody before he was deployed.

And just, you know, when you're intimate with somebody and you're dating somebody and you're talking about politics and music and you're seeing shows and you're learning what they like and what they [00:19:00] read, it's just opens up your world. And it was just marvelous to be dating again in my 40s after so many years.

And that, I loved that. And also the new relationship energy, like really becoming infatuated and really can't wait to see a person. And, and there wasn't texting when I met Eric, you know, so there was a whole new world about how I could be in, you know, instant conversation with somebody. And trading pictures and just talking all the time.

And it was super exciting, and I loved it. Like, this ... It was very energizing. And Eric was not jealous of this, and he was happy to see me happy when he got home. He found a girlfriend pretty quickly and had a pretty serious relationship. And after these shorter relationships and me trying it while he was gone, then I got on the apps and was trying to find a polyamorous relationship 'cause I had [00:20:00] decided, "Okay,

I think this is what I want." Like, I've had this sort of casual connecting, but now I see what Eric has with his girlfriend. Like, she comes over and they put a bookcase together or they go shopping or like just regular kind of mundane couple things that you do, which was really sweet. And they talk about work together, and they also are intimate together.

And it was a very full relationship. when I saw him in this more full relationship and it was, was nurturing and it was just loving, right?

It was like they loved each other. And that's not something I had really thought about. When we didn't have any rules like you can't fall in love with anybody as if you can limit, you know, people's emotions that way. That's very, naive. although in monogamy we're just not taught how to do that. So I think a lot of couples struggle with that.

Um, and that was a little bump. Like the first time I heard them say [00:21:00] they loved each other, um, it was like, oh. But then it only took me a minute to go, "Well, that's natural and that makes sense, and kind of makes me love him even more that he, you know, is... has love in his heart and enough to share with another wonderful human being."

Like, that's really sweet, and I think I would like something like that too.

He still had plenty of time for me and for our family, so I didn't feel like I was losing much. And I was also ... I met this lovely young woman, so that was a bonus to me because sometimes your metamours can add a lot to your lives, and I've been mostly fortunate with that.

And even in recent years, it's been even better, because I actually live with my metamour right now, which I've been doing for five years, something I never thought I would do. But my poly journey and finding kind of my first real poly boyfriend, somebody I saw, like, once a week. we went on outings together.

We talked about everything. We texted during the day. And he [00:22:00] was a lot different than I was and different from my husband, so it was super energizing and eye-opening and challenging. We had different points of view about politics in many ways. he was a lot younger than I was, so I mean, I was constantly looking up acronyms and things that he sent me.

Uh, but I learned a lot. and The, just the joy, and the openness that I experienced, was something that I had just never anticipated. And, and also realizing that this did not hurt my relationship with my husband at all. I mean, of course, if I'm happier and more engaged, that's gonna spill over into all aspects of my life, and that was the same for, for Eric.

You know, if he is happier and engaged, then that helps everybody

Fer: and there were times when I was on a date where I felt guilty because he didn't have one. Because I was projecting how I felt when he was on a [00:23:00] date. And I was like, "Oh, you know, I made dinner. It's in the fridge," or, "I won't be home too late." And he's like, "I'm perfectly fine on my own for an evening. I have plenty to keep me busy.

Natalie: Just go have a good time." And I thought, "Wow, I wish I could be like that with you." and he would say, he would be very grounding, "Look, I know you're coming home. I know you love me. All your stuff is still here. Um, so it's all fine. Just I want you to be happy and bring all that happiness home." Like, if you love somebody, don't you want them to be happy and fulfilled?

And I learned from his perspective, like that's what I want for him, too. And as long as we are communicating to each other how much we still care about each other, having other relationships does not threaten our relationship.

 Yeah, definitely. And you kind of alluded to, I guess, jealousy or discomfort, right? you were like, "I [00:24:00] wish I could feel like him," right? Like he's like, "I'm fine. Go have fun. Bring back, bring back the good vibes," you know? And you were like, "Oh, I wish I could feel like that." how did you feel at first when, when your husband was going on dates, and how did you learn to enjoy being on your own or being with girlfriends as opposed to being maybe focused on what he's doing or feeling, shit about yourself or or whatever it is that you were going through?

Part of it is letting go of competition. Like, if you have two dates a week, I need to have two dates a week. the other is being secure in your relationship, like knowing that your relationship is still what you want it to be even if you are not together at that point. So that is the fear. Like jealousy is fear of loss, and typically that fear is the loss of some aspect of the relationship.

 I'm fearful, and that makes me uncomfortable and anxious when you're [00:25:00] out with somebody else because I fear you'll have a better time with them, and then coming home to me will be boring. I fear that you will have better sex with them, and then coming home to me will be boring. identifying those fears and even, you know, talking to your partner because sometimes, you know, you voice them, and just hearing them say, "Yes, I'm intimate with this person, and I enjoy being intimate with them, but I also love being intimate with you.

And I come home, and I do that. And that shows you that I enjoy that." And, and I also learned from my own experience, like once I had accumulated my experience, and I realized, yes, I have amazing physical intimacies with other men that are not the same as the ones I have with my husband. I wouldn't trade one for the other.

They are different. One is not necessarily better than the other, but they are different. And what I share with my nesting partner of all these years is just [00:26:00] an inter-twinedness, a, you know, a closeness and a shared life experience and hardships that we've been through and joys and, you know, the birth of our child or the death of our parents or, you know, successes at work and moving across the country and when one of us was sick.

You know, all of those things that Bind you together, your experiences. that is a closeness that having a relationship with somebody else, to me, is not ever going to replace or supersede. and yeah, maybe he will have some amazing sexual experience with someone else or five people at one time that he's not gonna have with me.

It's different. And I don't,try not to think of it as one being better than the other. So I think if you can view it that way, that different does not mean better or that they're gonna [00:27:00] leave you for.  so identifying the fear, finding out the root of it, and is that a me problem? Like am I projecting something that he's not really feeling?

Like, "Oh, you're gonna leave me because of this," or, "You're not gonna value me." Well, did he ever say that? Did he ever show that? Is that all in my head?

 I also want the freedom to explore life to its fullest. And there are times in my life where I have more connections and times when I have left. I'm in a liminal phase right now and trying to figure out what is next.

I've had some relationships break up, some very long-term relationships, and for the first time in 15 years, I wouldn't say that I have, a steady polyamorous partner besides my husband right now. And I'm figuring out what I want and what that means to me, and part of me is like, "Oh my gosh, am I still poly?"

You know, I don't have another boyfriend at the moment. And I'm like, "Relax. [00:28:00] Experience this. Think about what you want. Take your time." meanwhile, my husband's girlfriend lives with us. but I'm, I'm finding that that's okay and I have peace with that, and I still get what I want from my relationship with my husband.

I'm still looking for more because my life is not over and I still wanna live it and experience it. But I'm being very intentional and thoughtful about what comes next for me

Fer: yeah. I can identify with that as I was sharing before. And I do wanna get to talk about you living with your metamour and how that all happened. I know that that's not part of the book, so I, I have a lot of questions about that. But I just want to kind of highlight a couple of things that you mentioned.

I think naming your fear is great. I think that that might sound obvious, but I think sometimes because we know that our partner loves us, and we know in theory that them being with someone else doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with us or our relationship, [00:29:00] it feels almost, like, silly to voice it and say, you know, "I'm afraid, you know, I have this, irrational fear that you're gonna leave me," or "I have this irrational fear that you think this other person is better," right?

 even just saying that without even getting the reassurance from your partner I think can be kind of like liberating, You say it out loud and you're like, "Oh, that's kind of ridiculous."

And also then your partner can tell you, "That's ridiculous" you know, or "It makes sense that you feel that way, but also that's not how things are," right? And, and I think that that's important for people out there to know that it's okay to voice it. Doesn't mean that you're asking your partner to change anything or to be responsible for your feelings, but just to maybe give you a little bit of reassurance

 So thank you for sharing all of that. so yeah, I guess tell me a little bit about, You, you've mentioned that, right now you don't have a relationship. And I've been reflecting on as I broke up with my non-anchor partner last year- the breakup [00:30:00] was really difficult for me, and I was like, "Wow, if I'm gonna be non-monogamous for the rest of my life or at least for the next, few decades, am I gonna have to go through this?

Like, how many

Natalie: Oh, the breakups are so hard.

Fer: I know, and, and you your book about the breakup with your first partner, right, and, and how difficult that was. and sounds like you've had a few since again. So how do you kind of make sense of that, of okay, like yes, I still want to have these experiences and these relationships, knowing that most likely they're going to end and knowing that most likely I'm going to get hurt?

Natalie: Okay. Well, first I would say that monogamy is full of breakups and almost half of marriages end in divorce. So this is a relationship issue, not a polyamorous issue. and breakups are difficult no matter what. So just to put that in context, like I could never be poly because of all the [00:31:00] breakups. Well, you know, monogamous breakups happen all the time.

I transitioned a nine or 10-year polyamorous relationship recently, so that is longer than a lot of marriages. And before that, a seven-year relationship, and before that a five-year. And I had like the seven and the nine-year at the same time.

 I don't think that, oh, if I had known that poly breakup would've been so harrowing, I never would've had the relationship. I, I have not felt that way, and I understood the reasons for all of my breakups. Most of them actually had nothing to do with me. the people I was seeing changed their priorities or they Other things changed in their life, and that can happen in a marriage too, in any relationship.

So I have been trying to view relationships with a [00:32:00] broader lens, and one of my partners said to me, "The way you define a relationship m- might be different the way I do." And that's what I like about relationship anarchy, which was a word that really scared me when I first heard it. Like, anarchy, whoa, I'm not an anarch- kind of, I'm like a rule follower.

 but all it is is breaking down the monogamous relationship structure and building it intentionally with the elements that you want. So my relationship table, and there are graphics about this online, about like what dishes do I want on the table that is my relationship?

 and in my relationship that transitioned, ended, a key element in the relationship, one of those dishes was then pretty much taken off the table, and I had to decide if that was a relationship that I still wanted.

And that dish was physical intimacy, and that I decided was important to me. [00:33:00] And even though you can have a relationship without that, and there are many marriages that don't have physical intimacy,

 But I have free will and a choice, and I decided that that is not a romantic, intimate relationship to me, at least at this point and with this person. Maybe that's a friendship.

And you can keep negotiating that with your partners. and that's something that I went through with a partner.

For many months, we tried to figure out what kind of relationship can we have because we still care about each other if things that were on the table are not on the table anymore, if we can't spend as much time together, if travel is not on the table anymore. Like, these things were important to me. And I'm like, "I don't think I'm willing to spend the head space and heart space to get 25% of what we had."

And they understand that, But that's hard sometimes to say that because of how much [00:34:00] you care about a person, and you've been with them so long, and you miss them when you're not with them, to say, I don't wanna accept less. I'm gonna focus my energies elsewhere."

Fer: Yeah, and if you don't mind me maybe digging a little bit deeper in there, what were the circumstances? 'Cause sounds like this person wasn't able to offer what, they used to offer before. Was it because they had another partner that, like, now, you know, their wants and needs were coming in the picture?

Or, like, why do you think that change happened?

Natalie: there were, sort of physical and mental issues that went into it and also just, maybe a shift in the kind of relationship that met my partner's needs. And those were things that I, that we did not have between us.

So yes, that was a hard part because he did find a partner that met his needs more in areas where he and I were not in sync. and that was hard for me because I definitely went through a [00:35:00] period where I was hurt and angry and jealous, But the other person is lovely. I can't, I mean, I can't really blame anybody.

Like, you know, people change, and their wants and needs change, and I don't think it was any deficiency in me. I don't feel like my partner cares any less about me, that wouldn't be there for me if I needed him. But he has made a choice to spend his resources, his time, his energy, his physicalities with somebody who he feels that he connects with better, and, you know, I want him to be happy.

 and I don't really wanna be in a relationship with somebody who is not, you know, all in, And I, you know, don't feel like I could get what I needed from that relationship anymore.

 and I tried for many months to do that. so yeah, that, that hurt a bit. That hurt my ego a bit. I also discovered a lot about what I need in a relationship, what I want, and feeling [00:36:00] desired is a really important part.

and I don't need to apologize for that, and that's nothing wrong with that, and that's what I w- I'm looking for.

I know what that looks like, and I know what that feels like, and that's where I will focus my, relationship energy on.

Fer: Yeah, makes sense. Thank you for sharing. I think that a lot of people find themselves in a similar situation, even outside of non-monogamy, where they're in a relationship where the person can't give them what they want fully, but they love them so much. Maybe they have a history, and then, you know, they keep trying to, make it work, right?

And sometimes you just realize that you, you can't, you know? And, and I think that it's a brave choice to break up when you still love that person and when you still enjoy the time that you spend together, [00:37:00] but when they can't give you what, what you need, right?

And, and to, to make that choice, It feels very difficult because the other person is like, "Well, I'm still down to, to continue our relationship, just not the relationship that you want." And you're like, uh, so tempting, right? So to try. And, and I think especially in your situation, as you said, your ego hurts a little bit, right?

Because there's this other person that, you know, came into the picture

Then that can be very difficult because you might feel replaced. But just understanding that, as you said, it doesn't say anything negative about you. just, found someone he had, a better, sounds like a sexual connection with

 any tips in this process that, help you maybe, not take it so personally and also decide to take the step to break up when the relationship wasn't serving you,

I mean, to be honest, there, there's a privilege in having, a nesting relationship. Like, [00:38:00] I feel desired and loved and valued by my husband. It's not like if I was monogamous and my partner broke up with me and went to be monogamous with somebody else, then I'm alone and I feel rejected and I feel replaced.

Natalie: And while there, you know, is some of that, I am still getting validation and feeling desired from someone else. So that's kind of the nice thing about having more than one relationship, I still felt like I had value, and I still felt that I was attractive. so that, that's helpful.

 and also just appreciating... Because also this partner had other partners that he had relationships with, loving relationships where there was not a, the physical intimacy. So the way he defines relationships, loving relationships sometimes doesn't include physical intimacy. So again, that wasn't about me as much.

 and it wasn't just the physical intimacy. It's just, [00:39:00] it's the allocation of time. Like, we used to travel together, and he was allocating that time elsewhere and to another person. So also we were just not spending time together. We were not taking trips. All of the things that were valuable to me in a relationship, and too many things were being taken away from the relationship.

 And he's also younger than me, so part of my head was like, "Oh, well, finally I've sort of aged out." But then I thought, "Well, no, I don't think that's it," because I still date people who are younger. I still... You know, people still find me attractive. and you have to... Part of it is just sitting with it.

 and

I guess valuing yourself to some extent. not placing all of your self-worth in the hands of somebody else. and that's something I think a lot of women struggle with. but having that validation from another person, I have to admit, like it would've been a lot worse if I didn't [00:40:00] have other relationships.

and Ja, I

Not tying your whole self-worth into s- someone else desiring you is something we all have to come to terms with.

 This is all very new. we just very recently, like last night, you know, just had a platonic date and, did all of the things we used to do with each other, except for the physical intimacy.

And it actually felt, felt good. And I was, like, not physically attracted to him. I did not really feel a tension, so I'm thinking, "Okay. Well, that was good. I think this is growth for me." how much time I wanna spend on that kind of relationship, I don't know.

I'll just, I'll have to figure that out. But I did not feel anxious, and, it felt positive. So I think that's good.

Fer: Good. And yeah, I think that that's [00:41:00] also the beauty of non-monogamy, that you can transition your relationships, right? Like, it's not like breakup, we don't talk ever again. Like, it can be whatever you want it to be. But I'm curious, when did you actually break up? Because I think that for me personally, I do need time.

 and obviously sounds like your breakup was, pretty amicable. but for me, I didn't, really get closure with my, ex until, eight months later or something, you know? I needed that space. now I'm like, "Okay, like, now we can be friends. maybe we can hook up at some point."

But I feel like sometimes people in the poly world are like, "Oh, we're gonna transition from partners to friends immediately," and they force that, and that can be really hard. But I'm curious how long it's been since you broke up

Natalie: many months. the breakup wasn't dramatic. It was sort of a gradual spending less time with each other. And I was the one, I think, that had to sort of do a breakup in my mind and separate myself because that's what I [00:42:00] needed, whereas he would've been just fine just sort of deescalating, was a word that he used.

And he would propose every once in a while, "Oh, let's get together and there's a show that we used to watch, and let's watch, you know, the last episode of that that we haven't watched." And I just kept putting it off. And then I told him, I said, I haven't responded because I'm trying to figure out what I want and where my head is and, and all of that."

And then I got to a place where I was like, "Okay, I think I'm ready to see if, you know, we can be friends." and that was months.

And when I look back on it, I think he was deescalating sooner than he really said he was. Like, and then finally put it in words. He's like, "Okay, I've come to some realizations about what I want going forward because of where my brain and my body and my time commitments, et cetera, are."

 but I think we started having those [00:43:00] conversations over a year ago, so it was gradual. 'Cause I'd been seeing him almost 10 years. I mean, this was, you know, a very long-term relationship. he was part of our polycule. We traveled to Europe together as, like, my husband, his wife, his wife's boyfriend.

Like, we all took this trip together. we had Thanksgiving together over the years. We were all very close.

 but I, I feel pretty, pretty calm about it. I don't really look forward to necessarily sharing space with him and his new partner a lot. because I'm still trying to manage that.

They're good people. Uh, but yeah, it's definitely a process, and I, you know, I don't have a lot of experience being friends.

So I am discovering that and seeing how that works.

Yeah, I think it's good that you took your time and are taking your time in the process. Again, I think I would advise people against trying to jump a [00:44:00] partnership into a friendship without having some space.

Fer: But I guess, as you said, you have your support system, right?

You have your husband, you have your metamour, your polycule. I guess that's the one good thing, right? About, you know, breakups in the context of non-monogamy that hopefully you have other partners that you can lean on and get support with and that, that will make you feel desired.

But ultimately, as you very well said, one can't put all of your value on one person, right? Or, or more generally speaking, on your romantic relationships. And think that's a journey that I've also personally been on of, being like, "I value myself. I love myself. I find myself sexy.

 I don't need other men to tell me that I'm hot or that, you know, or that I'm valuable,"

So yeah, I guess let's move on to your metamour that lives with you. So tell us, how did this come about? I can't remember by the end of the book if Eric was seeing someone or not, [00:45:00] but, is this, like, a new person that wasn't in the book, or is, is it one of the people that you talked about in the book?

Natalie: So Zella in the book has like a sentence or two because of when the book took place she was in our lives, but to me, more of a just a casual partner of Eric's. And then she actually got married and moved away and seven years later got a job back in this area and, was back in our lives and much grown and changed and matured and really a, a different person.

 she'd been through a lot we had had a metamour move in with us during the pandemic just because of the situation of the pandemic and people being alone and bubbling up. And that worked for a little while, and it ended up not being a good fit. So then when Zella came into our lives and Eric was like, "Oh, we're gonna start seeing each other," I was wary about somebody moving in.

She understood that. [00:46:00] She got the vibe. She got her own place, and that was fine. So we saw a lot of her and after about six months she had, a medical procedure and she was living by herself just a few miles from us, and it was, um, like a, a room over a garage.

She had to walk up a lot of steps. She had her own place. But I was like, that's not good for you have to walk up those steps and to be alone after this procedure. Uh, you should come stay with us at least until you're recovered. we have space." And so she agreed, which ended up being a good idea, and that was in December, like, maybe a week or two before Christmas.

So I'm like, "Well, I'll just stay here through the holidays. You don't wanna be by yourself." And so she ended up staying with us, and it was so easy. we all got along so well, and it's just something about personalities and expectations and communicating, and I didn't feel like we were in competition with each other.

It [00:47:00] was a stability and a serenity that I hadn't felt when another metamour moved in. She had her own place still, but she was spending a lot of time at our house. We would share meals together. we had a much better kitchen, and she loves to cook and bake, so she was using that, which I was happy to be the, beneficiary of some of that.

She's just a very pleasant person, a smart person. a lot of our interests overlap. All three of us like the same kind of music. our aesthetic is very similar, and it's really easy for us to get along. And so she was spending a lot of time at the house, sleeping over. she had her own room, and, I had my own room.

Like, my husband and I had our own room, but he would be in her room sometimes. But it, it seemed to flow fine. And the level of her needs and mine meshed very well. They weren't in competition. And after about four or five months of her living, you know, at least 80% with us but still [00:48:00] maintaining this other little apartment and paying rent, I said something.

And I know that everybody was a little gun-shy because the last experiment had sort of blown up a bit. So I felt like I needed to say, "Hey, I think we all get along great. And, um, I realize this is not my relationship between husband and metamour, but I want you to know that I am not the veto here.

I am not the barrier. If Zella wants to move in, I think that's wonderful. It's not my decision, but I want you to know that I am good with that. So it seems kind of silly for her to be paying rent over there when she's never there."

Fer: you brought this up with the two of them in

Natalie: I, I might have said it to him first. I'm like, "Hey, you know, I don't know where the two of you are in discussing this 'cause maybe I'm out of line.

Maybe she wants to keep her own place. But I want you to know I am good with this. I'm not trying to pressure you one way or the other, but it just seems like we're getting [00:49:00] along, and we have a lot of space in this house, and

Fer: And by this point, your kid is probably

Natalie: He's, he's out of the of the house. He's, an adult. He lives in another city with his own apartment.

If he visits, there's room for him to stay. and yeah. And then there was a discussion, and she's is a very deliberate, intentional person. She wanted to have a lease. I'm like, "This is kind of silly," Anybody can get out of it if they want, but she wanted to formalize it.

Like, I want to participate. I want everyone to know what the expectations are. I want to contribute to the household. and we have very frank discussions about all of that. And, It'll be, I guess, is it five years? Almost five years. Yeah. So, it's working out great. it's lovely. I feel very fortunate.

And we operate, you know, as a family. Like, we have meals together. We take care of each [00:50:00] other, when one person is sick. if there's three people, at least one person is well to take care of the other ones.

We typically have dinner together if we're all in the house.

I think it's pretty equitable. Like, we all just lean in. We all know what needs to be done, and we just do it without feeling put upon.

she actually likes to cook and bake, which for me was always kind of a chore.But it relaxes her. She's like, "Actually, I hate going into the store.

That stresses me out. I love being in the kitchen and creating things." I'm like, "Well, that, that works out well."

I go to whatever many grocery stores, produce places, et cetera, and get all the things that we need. So when she wants to make something fabulous, she always has the resources that she needs.

And then Eric can do all the dishes.

Fer: Yeah. Yeah, that, that sounds great. And I'm curious in terms of, because again, you are not in a romantic relationship with her or sexual relationship with

Natalie: Correct.

Fer: how

Fer (2): it...

Fer: [00:51:00] Right. I assume, like, some nights Eric sleeps with her, some nights Eric sleeps with you.

Is it like, okay, we have certain days, specific days of, of the week, or is it more fluid? Have you ever had, moments where either one of you have felt like maybe Eric is spending, like, too many nights with the other person? How does that work?

Natalie: it works surprisingly well, and I can say this because the last metamour, it was very competitive. I think she, like, had an abacus and just keeping track of, every minute he spent with me versus her and, But also because it was the pandemic and she w- it was hard to see other partners, that, that was a factor.

But I felt like it was a battle for everything had to be completely equal. And she moved into the house, and I agreed to everything. I tried to be equitable in everything, but it just seemed to be never enough. So there was this low level tension and competition all the time, which I do not feel. And also, I think that what we need and want, Zella and I meshes much [00:52:00] better.

 I appreciate the days of the week that it makes more sense for Eric to be with her because she is working a full-time, nine-to-five job. weekends are better for her because she doesn't have, she doesn't have responsibilities in the morning. So typically, they're together on the weekend, and Eric and I are together during the week because she wants to get up.

She's got things to do. She's gotta be at work. But they have breakfast together every day. I get up in the morning and typically go to the gym, so I don't do a big breakfast. They get up and have a breakfast, and so that's their time together.

 they go out on dates by themselves, typically things that I'm not interested in. A lot of times the three of us do things together because our interests overlap. You know, we'll go see a concert together. We'll go see a play together.

We'll go out to a club together or dinner or whatever it is. So I would say more often than not, we're doing things together. We probably look like a throuple, but we're not.

Fer: Eric kind of just decides sometimes. I'm like, [00:53:00] "So who, where are you sleeping tonight?" Just so I can, I know. And he'll be like, huh And then we'll have a conversation maybe like, "Do you have to get up early or what do you have to do?" 'Cause he doesn't like to get up early.

Natalie: So if she has to get up early on a weekend she might not sleep with her. He might sleep with me and sleep with her sometimes. And she, I think she prefers to sleep by herself, so it's not a big deal for her. With my prior metamour she really liked to sleep with Eric as much as she possibly could. So again, it was just different needs.

it's kind of nice to have the bed to myself a couple nights a week. so it, there's not really friction there. Um-

Fer: about like, you know, like hearing them or, or Zella hearing you having sex and that sort of thing? are those rooms, like, separate enough, or are you just, comfortable with, like, hearing them if they're a little bit loud or, you know?

Natalie: the rooms are at the opposite ends of the house. That's just how they are because they're in the corners. we have [00:54:00] noise-canceling machines. And we are really respectful of each other, which was not the case with my prior metamour. And also because the quarters were closer where we used to live, and my metamour and my husband would be over my head in the guest room.

So that was hard because my metamour was really loud and proud of being loud and did not want to modulate that at all. She felt that that was a restriction on her authentic self. and we couldn't come to an agreement, so that was a, a point of friction, so that was difficult. Zella is much more considerate about those kinds of things.

I think we both are. neither of us is as exhibitionist as my prior metamour either, so we don't feel the need to project our sexuality like that as much.

My prior metamour, I guess, felt like she didn't want to be restricted in that way, and that's, that's fine. But if there's another person in the house, I just thought to be considerate of that, especially when I expressed, "Could you please [00:55:00] be more considerate of that?" So, uh, I hear what you're saying, and that can definitely be a point of friction.

It is not with us because we try to be considerate. I'm not saying that I don't hear them sometimes. Like, I hear my husband or I hear, like, noises of things that are going on. but, you know, I know they're having sex . It's

Fer: Right, right. it's

Fer (2): just become normal,

Fer: yeah

Natalie: but yeah, I don't really like hearing that.

 And so that was another way that we just understand each other and communicate with each other and respect each other without having trying, trying to compete with each other. Like Zella and I, it's this very

It's a multifaceted relationship. she knows a lot more about technology. She's a millennial and she's much more comfortable with that. And she helps me with my Instagram or my MailChimp or setting up my computer. And, you know, I'm older than she is and, I work in a field that she works in now.

And so I have things to share that can be helpful to [00:56:00] her. And in some ways, you know, I'm like maybe a big sister or maybe, a more, a maternal figure. Sometimes we're just like sort of sisters on the same level and operating in this relationship where we're taking care of each other and taking care of our shared partner.

 and sometimes I feel protective of her just as you would anybody that you cared about. Like, is she being nurtured in our relationship, in her relationship, in her career? she's like a size smaller than me, so, some of my clothes that don't quite fit me anymore, I see her wearing them.

And part of me is like, "Oh, yeah, I gained five pounds. That doesn't quite fit anymore, but wow, look at she ... Like I'm so glad that this has a new life." Or suits that I would wear in my legal career that she wears, and, you know, they're kind of vintage now. Some of them have shoulder pads, but they look amazing on her, and people at work will like, "Wow, where did you get that?

That looks so great." And she'll like, "Oh, that's from my metamour." so we, uh, [00:57:00] share so much and are bonded in so many ways. She was a huge asset in editing my book. She's an amazing editor. And also because she knows me, she didn't know everything that happened in the book, but she had a sense of my life, so that was helpful to have somebody with that perspective as well as a perspective from a different generation when I wrote the book.

There was at least one or two instances where she said, "Hmm, you might not wanna phrase it that way. That might come off in a way that you didn't intend

Fer: millennials are not gonna like that.

Natalie: Yeah, and I appreciated that. she's in graduate school, so I return the favor and I read papers that she wrote and give my input onto that. and when she writes whatever book, she's got some, a few books in the works. I'm like, "I'm here to edit for you. I'm, I'm all about

it."

Um, and I love supporting her 'cause she is just a wonderful human being and really bright, and she's gonna accomplish great [00:58:00] things.

Fer: Oh, that's very, very sweet. I'm curious about, her idea of her future and what she wants, right? Because you mentioned she's a millennial. I don't know if she wants marriage and children and if, you know, that's something that could be avail- Well, I, I guess not marriage because you are already married to Eric.

But

Natalie: Now that's

Fer (2): if that's a Mm-hmm

Fer: yeah, if that's something that would be available in this dynamic, or is she, engaging knowing that at some point she'll have to, go and find her primary partner?

Natalie: Well, that's the thing about Knowing each other's expectations and needs and wants. she was married. She does not wanna be married again. She does not wanna have children.

Um, so

Fer: your dynamic to make it, more long-term,

Natalie: But it, it

Fer (2): yeah To the outside world, she looks like a single person because she's not married, [00:59:00] and she's not.

Natalie: She's in a long-term, committed life relationship. Like, that's how she views it, so that's how we view it. so they've been together five years now for, like, this phase, and they were together maybe a year 10 years ago,

Fer: So she moved in pretty quickly after they got back together, sounds like

Natalie: After about six months. and 'cause it just, it

Fer: It just worked. Like just,

Fer (2): Yeah.

Natalie: and so last summer We had like a hand fasting ceremony and she wears a ring. And I appreciate as a married person like what people think of you when you wear a wedding ring. I had a friend, when she would try cases or go into court, she wasn't married but she would wear a wedding ring because people assign certain assumptions that you are responsible, that you are in a [01:00:00] committed relationship, that you are dependable, that someone values you.

All this because you're wearing a wedding ring. And these are all true about Zella. These are all things that are true, but because she wasn't married and didn't have a ring, she felt that she was not viewed that way, that she was dismissed in some ways. And I understood that and I think, you know, she definitely respects all the time that Eric and I have been together and that, you know, I am the wife and that I wear a ring, et cetera, which I was circumspect about wearing my wedding ring sometimes when I was around her.

I didn't- I felt like I was flaunting this even though I am his wife. so I was very supportive when Eric brought this up. I was kind of expecting it. I said, "I support having this and all I would ask is, 'cause I feel like we are kind of a unit even though like we don't have a romantic relationship, so if I could participate in some way in the ceremony."

Uh, and he was like, "Oh my gosh, she wants that so much. She definitely wants you to participate." And we had just this like private small [01:01:00] ceremony that we crafted ourselves and she wears a ring when she wants to, when she doesn't. But I, I love this for her and she should because she is in a committed long-term relationship with Eric, and she should be able to show the world that she is.

 And it's, it's also funny, I noticed that, that Eric was introducing me as his partner instead of his wife recently. And which I am, and I know, like, he's trying to be, egalitarian. And I, I said something. I said, I know this doesn't come from a bad place, but I am your wife.

And especially when we're in more vanilla monogamous spaces and you introduce me as your partner where other people have spouses, can you tell me why you do that?" You know, I tried to be, you know, open-ended. And I think it was out of respect for Zella. And I said, "I, I understand when we're maybe in non-monogamous spaces and that [01:02:00] makes more sense, but I f- I am your wife, and I've been with you a long time.

And that part of our relationship is still valuable to me. And I feel like maybe I've been demoted or, or something." And, and I heard him talking to Zella a couple days later about the conversation we had. And I heard her say, "Well, she's your wife. Of course you should introduce her as your wife." Because, you know, that's

The, the respect that she has for that long-term commitment and everything that goes with that kind of relationship, which is, you know, not necessarily something that I might have heard from another metamour. And, and I have noticed that he does introduce me that way. Because he's my husband.

That's how I introduce him. because I'm polyamorous. It doesn't mean I can't also have a legal spouse. So, I value that about her and about our relationship that we can talk about those things and still feel that we are all connected even if maybe, the words that we assign might, you know, be different

Fer: That's beautiful. It sounds like there's really mutual [01:03:00] respect and understanding, unlike, sounds like your first, living with a metamour experience.

Where that metamour really was competitive and didn't want to, make adjustments for you as much and that sort of thing. But how did that end, right? Like, was it just like, were you, like, fighting and were you like, "She needs to move out"? Did

Natalie: That's book two.

Fer: Yeah, that's book two, but, like, give us a preview

Natalie: I don't wanna be dismissive because that was, that's really hard to be... And she was a mother with, teenage to adult children, a- accom- she is, she's not dead, accomplished professional person, very bright, attractive, like the whole package. so it's coming into my home and living with me had to have been really rough and awkward and trying to figure out her place there, and I could be prickly.

So it was just difficult, and it was the pandemic. We were [01:04:00] all, like, stuck with each other. But what she wanted out of the relationship, was to be a wife. To have what I had and those ... That's like a quote from her. "I want what Natalie has." and Eric was like, "I have a primary partner. I can't have two."

 and I respect somebody wanting a primary partner. I, I like having someone who is my person, that understands me, that I can be totally vulnerable and cry ugly tears to and all of that. and he was that, but also I was still his wife and I wasn't going to take, you know, a backseat and I wasn't gonna be competing all the time.

 that was not a good relationship and there was always this competition. And I hope that she has found the primary partner that she wants or the life that she wants and I, you know, I wish her all those good things. But the conflict got to be too much and what she wanted just kept ... It was never enough.

It got to the [01:05:00] point where she wanted Eric to live with her also. I don't know if he was supposed to split his time, but you know, that was

Fer: So like live in a different house with him

Natalie: Yeah. I mean, she lived in the same city, but it was just one thing after the other and it was too stressful for everyone involved. And I, again, I don't wanna speak for her or to speak for Eric, but, it was, wasn't sustainable.

 and you know, if the two metamors who are living together cannot get along and respect and care about each other on a consistent basis, it's just like, that's not a place where you wanna live. you don't wanna live in a place that there's this low-level tension or sometimes even more than that. And, and I know that she was disappointed that it didn't work out the way she wanted and, and that's rough.

And I ... You know, sometimes people just can't live together and relationships just aren't sustainable because what people need and want is different. and then we're human and that's okay. but that taught me ... 'Cause I thought, "Oh, God, I can [01:06:00] never live with a metamor," clearly. But that wasn't the case. It was just the right ingredients in the household.

 and right now I feel that we have the right ingredients and so we've made this beautiful cake.

Fer: Yeah, I love that. Yeah, I see that there's a lot of conflict in that realm, especially with this non-hierarchy trend of people wanting something from a partner that already has a primary partner, whether they call the other partner primary or not, and feeling that, because they're, like, saying they're non-hierarchical, maybe they can also marry me, and they can also have kids with me,

and I think it's great that Eric was able to say, "Listen, I already have a primary. I cannot give you these things." Because I, I have seen that sometimes some people, don't wanna let go of that relationship and try to promise that, you know...

 maybe there's a way we can make this work, [01:07:00] right? And, like, ultimately, I do feel like as much as the arrangements like the one you have right now, can work, we do want our person, and sometimes it's, really difficult for one person to be the main person for two people, especially when the, the partners want, want the one person, right?

Are not okay with, like, truly having more of, like, an equalitarian extr-structure like the one you have now. So, yeah. Thank you for sharing that.

Natalie, thank you so much. I love this conversation. I really appreciate your openness and, and you sharing all the wisdom that you've learned in your journey

Natalie: it was lovely talking to you too. Thank you very much