Kata: [00:00:00] Before dates and after dates, he would call me where he would just tell me, "How do you feel? You are safe." And it's so funny 'cause, like, I had initiated this exercise, and every time when he called me or he would DM like, "Kata, I'm just checking in with you. How do you feel?" And I'd be like, "I feel good." And then he's like, "You're safe," and I just start crying.

Fer: Mm. So it became this, like, somatic, like, holding, saying, "You're safe. I love you. I'm here for you," and then he would go on the date, and then come back and do the same thing. And that ultimately I think imprinted in my body that, I don't have to be cool with it, and that I am safe, Hi, everyone. Welcome to Polycurious. I am Fer, your host, and today I am talking to my friends JJ and Kata. JJ was actually a guest on Polycurious previously, and in his episode, which I will [00:01:00] link in the show notes for you, we talked about his process discovering non-monogamy, trying to go back to monogamy, and realizing that he couldn't, and that his poly identity was very important to him, and learning to own that.

We also talked a little bit about him exploring his bisexuality, and he mentioned his partner, Kata, and I really wanted to have her on so we could chat about their relationship. They have been together for four years. They live in Portugal. He is Australian. She is Finnish. And while they both come from non-monogamous backgrounds, they've had to still learn to be in relationship with one another.

 when Kata met JJ, she was in a long-term relationship. I believe she said they were together [00:02:00] for about seven years or so. And in that relationship, she was actually pretty compersive.

She didn't feel a lot of jealousy. Compersion, if you're new to this world, is basically feeling joy when your partner is experiencing joy by being with other people And what was interesting is that she actually experienced betrayal in her long-term relationship. basically her partner broke an agreement, did something that she did not expect, and that ended up leading to them breaking up.

And because she had been with this partner for a long time since she was very young, this led to her feeling like she had lost a part of her identity. She had lost her stability. So then when she eventually got with JJ, again, [00:03:00] at this point, she was already dating JJ, but they did become anchor partners.

And interestingly, she did experience jealousy or insecurity when JJ was on dates, and it was because of the experience that she had had with her previous partner in which he had been non-monogamous, there had been some betrayal, and therefore her body could sense that threat of JJ also betraying her and that leading to her losing her stability and her partnership and all of that again.

Obviously, it's not that she actually believed that, right? But the body remembers. So you might be someone who, like myself, felt abandoned by one of their caregivers, right? In, in my case, my dad. Although he did not abandon me, but I just didn't feel cared for maybe in all of the ways that I was hoping to as a child.

Or you might have had [00:04:00] an experience in which a partner, a romantic partner, left you for someone else or something like that. And you might feel very secure in your current relationship, but because you have that trauma, if I may say, perhaps small T trauma, but still you might feel very threatened or it might be very difficult for you To have your partner date other people.

So today we talk about how Cata dealt with that and how she found her way back to safety, and she gives really good advice when it comes to doing the work that you need to do when your partner is out on dates so that you can feel more regulated. And she is actually a therapist, so this information is coming from someone who has studied this, and not only has studied it, but has practiced it.

So I hope that you find that helpful today. And what I appreciated, too, is that [00:05:00] she not only did the work on herself, she also actually asked JJ to slow down. And as Cata talked about everything should be a conversation and what's most important is for people to feel safe.

And as she became anchor partners with JJ, that's how they have approached their relationship. So I'm hoping that you can learn from them and that you can encourage an environment in your, your relationship where you talk openly about things, where you advocate for your needs, but there's also a lot of freedom and flexibility like they have in their relationship.

Okay, guys, if you want to connect with Cata, if you want to check out any of the things that we mentioned during the episode, you can find all of those links in the show notes. Okay, let's get into it.

Here is my conversation with JJ and Cata. Katta and [00:06:00] JJ, welcome to Polycurious. I'm so excited to have you

Kata: Thank you so much for having us. Yeah, it's great to be here. Nice to see you.

Fer: Yeah, well, JJ, welcome back, I guess, to Polycurious. Yeah, for listeners who haven't heard your episode, they should go and check that out first.

But, uh, you know, it was mostly about your journey, and you did mention Kata. But I wanted to have you both together so I could learn more about Kata's journey, but also your journey together. And Kata, it's also nice to be able to sit down and have a conversation with you because we've seen each other in events a lot, but we haven't really had the time to, to have a full-on conversation and get to know each other.

So I'm excited for that, too.

Kata: Yeah, me too. I feel like this is a very-- becomes very intentional. We get to go fully, like, do a full deep dive.

Fer: Yeah. Yeah, I love that. That's one of the things I love about the podcast. I, I get to have the conversations I would wanna have anyways, but then other people can, you know, benefit from it.

But yeah, before we get [00:07:00] into a little bit of your journey, tell us a little bit about your relationship.

Kata: Yeah. So we've been together for a bit over four years now. We celebrated our, our fourth

JJ: dating anniversary last

Kata: month. Mm-hmm. We consider ourselves open, but then we are each other's anchor partners or primary partners, depending on which wording one prefers.

I tend to use primary because for me that doesn't mean, like, a value hierarchy. It's more like a practical term. But JJ prefers anchor partner 'cause we anchor each other. Yeah.

Fer: Beautiful. Nice. Yeah, you know, with the primary and anchor discussion, it's interesting because I also feel totally okay using primary because, yeah, practically, yes, it's, you know, so this is-- it's my priority.

But I think some people don't like to be called secondaries, right? So, so I've changed to [00:08:00] anchor, non-anchor. But yeah, it's interesting how people get really, like, heated about those sort, sorts of things. Is that why, JJ, why you prefer anchor and non, non-anchor as opposed to primary and secondary or so?

JJ: Yeah, I mean, well, I was Kata's secondary at one point, and that was very bizarre. Like, I was basically falling in love with someone and, like, going, "Ooh, but I'm a secondary," you know? It just felt weird. So I feel like now that I've been on that side of it, it feels a bit like, ooh, and just, you know, wouldn't wanna necessarily put someone else in that position.

Fer: Mm-hmm.

JJ: But for all intents and purposes, yes, like, it's the priority relationship, you know- Mm-hmm ... in, in my life. Mm-hmm. And anybody coming into, into our sphere will know that. Anybody that's a lover or even a friend of mine will be very clear, this is where you'll be coming into, into my life, and here's where my priorities lay, you know?

Mm-hmm. But yeah, it's, it's just a reluctance to hierarchical poly than when I was solo poly. When Kata and I first met, I was solo poly, and I was quite against [00:09:00] that idea.

Fer: Yeah, and I think that that's why sometimes it rubs people the wrong way, like when they are called secondaries, but they don't feel like that, or they feel like that name kind of means that you are loved less or something like that, when it doesn't feel that way.

And I mean, in your case, sounds like you kind of want it to be the primary anyway, so, so that probably was also not- ... you know, helpful to make you feel comfortable with the secondary name. 'Cause I feel like for me, I haven't yet been someone's secondary, but I feel like I would be comfortable being called that way.

JJ: And also, you know, y- when we're, we're out in the world da- you know, dating with people, like, I've found lately that it's been much easier to, to date people that are open that have a primary anchor partner- Mm ... because we kind of can relate to that. But when you're dating someone that is single or solo poly, there is somewhat of a power imbalance.

You have the privilege, like, you have the privilege of having the primary partner or that nesting partner, and they don't. So there is a dynamic-

Fer: Right ... [00:10:00] 

JJ: dynamic symmetry.

Fer: Right. That makes sense. Right. I'm like, "Oh, yeah, I can totally be called a secondary 'cause I have a primary," right? But if I didn't have a primary and I wanted a primary, being called a secondary might be a little difficult, you know?

So that, that makes total sense. Kata, tell us a little bit about your journey. So as we talked about on JJ's episode, when I met JJ, I think he was in that journey of kind of coming to terms with himself and exploring and embracing poly, right? But where were you coming in at the time that you guys met?

Kata: Yeah. So I kind of figured out that some type of non-monogamy was the way I feel the most myself in. Already when I was, like, 19, I already noticed some, like, non-monogamous patterns in, like, desire to, like, play with multiple people, or, like, even when I met my ex, who I was together with for seven years. In the beginning, I was like, "Oh, like, I [00:11:00] would love to be open," but I didn't know how to approach it.

And I also was kind of like I could do both was my kind of stand. Like, I could be monogamous, I could be open, but, like, I had a more natural tendency towards openness. And yeah, then from there, kind of a few years into our relationship, we decided to open up with my ex-fiance. And the dynamic that worked for us was, yeah, primary partnership, and then with lovers on the side, lovers who we play with separately, but then ultimately a kitchen table poly style, that if that person becomes really meaningful and important in their life, then we bring them in, and we, we at least aim at building a friendship or to be friendly.

So I met JJ during that time when me and my ex had opened up. We already had some skill under our belts, and so- I, yeah, I met you when you were monogamous.

JJ: Oh, yeah. Initially, yeah. Yeah. When I, yeah, I was still with my previous partner.

Kata: Yeah. So I met JJ- Oh,

Fer: okay.

Kata: Yeah. I met JJ at a party, but [00:12:00] he had shared with me that he used to be in an open marriage, and I was really curious how, 'cause I w- had just, I was thinking about getting engaged and married and all these things, and I was really curious about if that ritual of, or ceremony of marriage would change the dynamic.

So I guess we, we connected on that. Mm. And then changed, exchanged Instagram, and then we didn't talk for a year.

Fer: Where was this party?

Kata: This was in Lisbon, out of all places. Oh, okay. And then we kind of returned- Mm ... returned back to the base of encounter to build poly.

Fer: Yeah. And at that point you were living in Denmark?

Kata: At that point I was living in Denmark, yeah.

JJ: Yeah. And I was nomadic at that point.

Kata: Yeah. So yeah, we met like that and then, yeah, then a year later, JJ texted me asking if- If I'm in Finland, 'cause you were going to Finland for some family-

JJ: Yeah ...

Kata: family stuff.

JJ: Yeah, around my ex-wife-

Kata: Yeah ...

JJ: and such. Yeah.

Kata: And I told him, "No, I live in [00:13:00] Copenhagen," da, da, da.

And then he was like, "Oh, I've never been to Copenhagen." And asked if I, you know, like he was, he was going to Copenhagen if I, and asked me if I wanna grab dinner. And-

Fer: So wait, so JJ, you were going to see her basically. You went

JJ: to see her. I was. But from my perspective, you know, I was also in Finland. She's Finnish, so that's why we were chatting about that.

And, you know, it's pretty close, Copenhagen to Finland. And I ended up- It's

Kata: pretty close.

JJ: There was actually one of her best friends was also with her that night in Lisbon. I also met her then, and she was in Finland, so she and I ended up ch- catching up. And so then it also sort of felt normal, like, "Oh, well let's also, I'll come to Copenhagen for a weekend."

And, and Katja's response was really positive. She's like- Yeah ... "Oh, yeah, what are you interested in? Museums, galleries, cafes- Yeah ... parks?" And I was like, "Oh, okay, well, she's pretty, pretty keen to help, help, help me around."

Kata: Yeah. And yeah, since then we connected. Everything was really great. Then, like attraction build.

Then we were even like sexually intimate [00:14:00] on the first night. But then what was something I, that I had never done before, like the day after I had been with JJ or spent the night with JJ, I had my friend's birthday party in a gorgeous rooftop in Copenhagen, and I called my ex and asked, "Hey, can I bring this guy to the friend's birthday party?"

And then my ex said, "Yeah, sure. That sounds great. Just ask him" - 'Cause

Fer: your ex wasn't going?

Kata: No, he was also going.

Fer: Oh, I see.

Kata: I just feel like, oh, I met this guy who's fun, like he could come to the party.

Fer: So wait, even the night before, whenever you guys hooked up- Mm ... how did you handle that with, with your partner at the time?

Because you, you weren't sure you were going to have sex- No ... right? Like was it okay for you to be like, "Oh, we did have sex the day after" or did you like call him midday and were like, "Hey, can, or can I go ahead with this?" Or how did you handle that?

Kata: So we had an agreement where, you know, obviously he knew that I'm on like a date or something, that there's some curiosity.

And then just for safety, we just sent a text like, "Hey, by [00:15:00] the way, I'm not sleeping home"

Fer: And

Kata: then, and then you call the next day and kind of disclose what happened.

Fer: Okay. Yeah. So, so sounds like you can like kind of make a, a decision last minute and just say like- Yeah ... "Hey, I'm not coming home," and that, that, that was okay.

Yeah. Okay, cool.

Kata: So then, yeah, so then when I... Then my ex said like, yeah, he would feel comfortable with JJ coming to the birthday party. The friend who had a birthday also was okay with it. And so the day after, my ex and JJ both meet, and it was super cute 'cause they're both like burners. So then they had this long like heart hug.

And then- ... um, yeah, like each gifted each other things. Yeah,

JJ: it was cute. It was cute 'cause we also noticed each other. I didn't know who it was- Yeah ... before. We sort of both like kinda caught eyes with each other and then later caught, "Oh, that's my partner." But from my perspective, I was like, whoa, like I'm meeting these people who are really living it from the...

Like, this is pretty wild to me. The fact that she could sort of mid-date say, "Hey, I'm not coming home," which was pretty new to me. I hadn't experienced that. [00:16:00] And I know now that, that she and her partner had worked through a lot to get to that point- Mm ... that they could just send that text message. But to, to see that and then to, for, to be able to, you know, have spend the night and then have a, spend the morning together, no rush, and then the next day to meet him.

And I was like, whoa, this just... I really feel like I'm living this life that, that I've really wanted to for so long. You know?

Fer: Yeah. Yeah, it was like an important moment for you of being like, "It is possible." Yeah.

Kata: You know? "I'm

Fer: not wrong for wanting this." Yeah.

JJ: Yeah.

Fer: Yeah, it was really cute. So, so when JJ and him met, what gifts did they give to each other?

Kata: Do you wanna share?

JJ: I, I made Evanda grony. Yeah. And then she had some chocolates with some, some fungi in them.

Kata: Yeah.

Fer: Aw, I love you made him a Negroni and he gave you some mushroom chocolates- ... on your first- Yeah ... uh, time meeting. Kata, tell me, 'cause JJ mentioned that you had worked a lot to get to that [00:17:00] point with, with your partner at the time.

So what was kind of the evolution of that relationship, and how long had you been together at that point?

Kata: So if I remember correctly, I think we had been monogamous for three years, and then the last four years of our relationship we were open. And the first year of this, we were extremely inactive. It was more like we talked about it, we said we're open, and then al- that almost made me fall in love with him again, because, like-

Fer: Mm

Kata: I had this sense of like, "Now I can have everything, and the scarcity is gone, so, like, now I don't need."

Fer: Yes. You know? Sometimes it's just about having the option, right? Yeah. And, and, you know, people are afraid that your partner will then go and want to be with other people, but actually- Yeah ... it does create a feeling of, yeah, being grateful and, and being like, "Wow, it's so awesome that my partner is okay with this.

I love him so much because of that," yeah.

Kata: Yeah. And... But yeah, then we decided a year later, we were like, "Okay, this is very inactive, and this is [00:18:00] still something we wanna, like, do and, you know, a way we wanna live." So we then started to, like, more actively, like, maybe seek for a connection. And because the idea had originally come from my end, we had thought that it's a good idea to let him do the first exploration, and then we sit and feel into it.

How did it feel? I just was really nosy. I was like, "Tell me everything. How was it? Da-da-da," and felt a lot of compersion. Also, our, our boundaries and agreements were a bit blurry at this point, because everything was like, "Let's see how it feels." And so when I went with someone, we had one rule that was, like, not with friends, and I went with someone who wasn't at the beginning a friend, but then became over time a friend or part of the friend group.

So then that, when I connected with him, that became a trigger, and then- Caused some rupture also within the friendship and also within the partnership. And we navigated that through a lot of , like I was saying, like [00:19:00] mistakes that then I've learned from. Like we tried vetoing. Terrible. We tried let's put like more confinement on the, on the relationship.

Didn't work. And slowly built our way to, okay, let's, let's create a container that allows us to feel freedom but also as safe as possible, and let's see how that feels. You know? Mm-hmm. Like, I like to say that it's always a good idea to go as slow as your slowest parts wanna go. So if there's a part that's really excited, maybe we let that part sit to the side for a moment when there's one like really insecure, fearful part that needs more time.

So we kind of contained it a bit more, and back then I think it was like only one-night stands and only strangers, which also meant I didn't hook up with anyone, 'cause one-night stands were not interesting to me. I was more in for the emotional connection. And then slowly evolved, evolved the agreements to be a more on the base of like if there's something exciting that comes up, let's talk beforehand and see how it feels.

[00:20:00] So then we were able to expand trust, 'cause we would have a conversation, have the experience, and then the parts of you that would mistrust or I would have parts that would read into like, like you're trying to do something behind my back, those parts would get like feel calm. Mm-hmm. So it was slowly building trust and seeing that we had each other that then allowed, allowed for the kind of- Intuitive feeling into what, what you wanna do on the date, you know?

Knowing that the person is really comes from, like, an a- authentic place. Which, you know, in, in retrospect, like, regardless of how many beautiful experience we had with ex, there was also then betrayal that later came out, which has then left me with some, some wounding that I brought into a relation with JJ.

So I feel like back then, my openness felt more easeful, but then also came with, came with some rupture that, that I'm still today dealing with. Yeah.

Fer: Well, I do wanna get into that. But before, because I'm curious, [00:21:00] you said, you know, we tried vetoing, we tried restricting ourselves, and those things didn't work.

Kata: Mm-hmm.

Fer: How did you try that, and why didn't it work?

Kata: I just noticed, and I think it's also because the person I connected with was a friend, that vetoing just became very toxic. And, like, by vetoing, we meant like, "Oh, let's... I'm not allowed to interact with this person anymore," right? So but what it doesn't take into account is the heartbreak of not just, like, the partner, the people in the partnership, but also the third person.

And you're playing with people's open... like, hearts that are cracked open. So vetoing became very... It was a radical solution to something that would've needed much more softness and care and conversation and repair, and then to find a way to really hear, like, okay, what was, what was not met in this situation, and then maybe come from a more, more of an open-hearted space like [00:22:00] that.

Mm. And vetoing was just a way for, in, in this example, for my ex to be like, "Okay, person away, and we're safe." And where you have this assumed sense of safety. And he didn't suggest the vetoing. I offered the vetoing. So it wasn't either an ask from him. We were just kind of navigating this together. Yeah.

Fer: Mm-hmm. Um- Yeah, but it was difficult because then you were heartbroken. This friend of yours was heartbroken too. Yeah. So you would, like- Mm ... see each other in social situations or whatever and struggle, you know. And I don't know how your partner was dealing with that, but maybe your partner was, like, fine, but you had this internal struggle that maybe you couldn't share with him, and that was difficult.

I mean, I'm just making- Yeah ... a story here, but it's- It just made, like- ... I can imagine that's how it went.

Kata: Yeah, it just made friend group interactions very inauthentic You know? 'Cause we couldn't show up as what, how we truly felt out of fear of, like, breaking a, an agreement or [00:23:00] for, like, I thought I was protecting my, my partnership, and in the end it was...

Yeah, it was, it was a messy-ass learning curve-

Fer: Mm-hmm ... to say the least. S- so how did you move from there? Did you remove the veto and, and got back- Yeah ... with this friend or... Mm-hmm.

Kata: Yeah. We removed the veto and found ways to navigate with friends that require, like, something that I, that I did then that was really successful was we would have, okay, the people that need the safety conversation, so, like, me, my partner, and let's say the friend, and we would all have a round table talk and kind of go through, okay, what would I need to feel safe in this, in this dynamic?

Even though I'm not playing in this dynamic, what, what do I need to feel safe with my friend interacting with my ex, and, and what do they need from us? And then also, what would a closure look like if they wanna stop playing together? What would that look like, and how do we make sure there's repair so that the friendship can still be there?

Like, I remember something that for me [00:24:00] was important, was like, oh, if you stop playing together, I still wanna be able to invite both to brunch, or my friend had said she still wants to, like, talk shit about my ex to me without it being, like, a thing, you know? We wanna have our girl chat. So-

Fer: Mm-hmm ...

Kata: so, and that allowed us to really build, like, a foundation where conversation is welcome, and created for a lot of safety.

And even after me and my ex broke up, me and this friend became even closer- Mm ... because we had built this, like, emotional foundation that I really hadn't shared with any other friend. So it was really, felt really important. Yeah.

Fer: Nice. Awesome. And you said she, it was a she in this case? It was a she, yeah.

Okay.

JJ: Wait, maybe just to clarify that, that you're not talking about the example before, you're talking about another... So this is- Oh, yeah ... this is now another way.

Kata: Yeah, this is another friend, sorry. 'Cause the- Oh, okay ... the friend who got originally vetoed, that relationship was never able to be salvaged into what it could have been, had it not been ruptured

Fer: Right.

But

Kata: then with the- But then there was another... Yeah, then there was another [00:25:00] friend who came in, and n- now having learned, I guess, from this previous experience, we wanted to do this very differently, kind of with more awareness. And I also at that time had already started educating myself more around openness and, like, studied psychology and things like that.

So that was also massively helpful.

Fer: Nice. I like that, you know, having a sit-down with the three people. I feel like that might feel intimidating or awkward or difficult or, you know, any of those things. But yeah, I mean, even the person that I'm seeing now, you know, I'm friends with his wife, too, and I did want to bring up at some point, "Hey, could we just, like, sit down, the three of us, and have a conversation?"

And, you know, eventually I had conversations with the two of them individually, and whatever. Things are fine now. But I do think that had we done that, maybe things would've been kind of resolved quicker or... It's just good to... there to have those conversations that feel like maybe a little awkward or [00:26:00] unconventional.

Yeah, so I l- I love that, and I hope the listeners take that with them and offer that to their partners or to their metamours.

Kata: Yeah, bringing that little, like, all that awkwardness that is there. Like, you bring it You, you know, you bring it forth with vulnerability, and that makes everyone, like, trust each other a bit more.

JJ: There is actually one thing I wanted to mention about Cata's ex, actually. Yeah, of

Kata: course.

JJ: One thing that really impressed me about them, on top of the fact that, you know, I met him and stuff, and I think... I don't know if I've told her this, but it's something that I've kind of absorbed, is like for me it's really important in relation to be willing to examine oneself and, and the couple and sort of reassess and be like, "Hey, is this working for us?"

I remember one time I saw she posted a photo of them on Instagram, and I was, like, really kind of like, "Oh." I got really a pang. Like, I'm like, "Oh, I can't do that." Like, "Oh, I wish I could do that." 'Cause, you know, wish she could post a photo of me on Instagram. And then when I told her about it, she's like, "Oh, I'll talk to him, and let's have a conversation."

You know, [00:27:00] everything was kind of open for conversation. And she mentioned that their only agreement at the beginning was about no friends. And, and as you heard now that they actually did go towards opening up towards friends. They also had flexibility and agreement that we've never changed, which we've always been fluid bonded.

So we've never been with anyone else, hasn't been fluid bonded. But we could talk about it, but it hasn't happened yet. But it almost did, but, but I know they were open to that, you know? So to me, like, they represented a couple that were really willing to, to explore any kind of avenue, which was really impressive to me.

You know, it's something that I sat with, and I think it really... I absorbed it in, like, this is something that Cata's really willing and able to do, which I really value. Yeah.

Fer: Yeah, I think it's so important when everything can be a conversation, right? And I feel like that's, again, that's the difference between having agreements and having rules or, you know, going back to the topic of hierarchy.

I think that people really shy away from that term because they assume that hierarchical means that you can't post pictures on Instagram, and there's [00:28:00] no conversation because Cata's primary partner said that he's not okay with it, and he dictates everything about your relationship. And, you know, that's people...

And some people do have that sort of hierarchical relationship, right? But the way that I do hierarchy, and sounds like also, Cata, you did with your ex-partner and I imagine with JJ too, is just have a conversation, right? Like, that situation that you just mentioned, I imagine if I had a partner who wanted me to post pictures of him on social media, well, I probably wouldn't feel comfortable with that personally.

But if I did, like, I feel like I would totally talk to Seth and, like, have a conversation. And he, you know, I'm not saying he would say yes, but he's always open to hear the other person's side and, and make agreements and, and accommodations for that person. Does that mean that, you know, like, if I have a weekend free, I'm going to go with my secondary partner more than my primary?

No, I'm gonna, you know, prioritize the time I'm spending with my primary, but that doesn't mean that [00:29:00] I'm not gonna make adjustments, and we're not gonna take care of the secondary partner in that way, or the non-anchor partner. So yeah. Yeah.

Kata: Yeah. Thank you for-

Fer: That's

Kata: something I

JJ: really,

Kata: yeah, appreciate about JJ, 'cause like you mentioned that, you know, I came from this like, oh, everything is a conversation.

And then I think something beautiful that JJ has added to this is like even when there's a no, and now I don't mean like a hard no, this is like a feels unsafe to go beyond, but like when there is like, like a no and then that's it, JJ has always encouraged to like understand the why behind the no.

Fer: Yes.

Kata: So that we can understand where it comes from, like have some awareness, and is this something that can be worked on or is this something that, no, this is an important no to keep as a no. So I really appreciated your, you, you pushing, 'cause I had a lot of, I still have some like kind of rebellious like, "No, I don't like this because I don't like it."

Fer: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Kata: I don't do this 'cause [00:30:00] that's not, I don't know, it doesn't fit with how I view myself or something. And he's kind of pushed me gently to explore the why, and then I've discovered like, ah, there have just been parts of me that felt intimidated or insecure or whatever the feeling underneath was, and it actually wasn't a no, I just maybe didn't know how or like it felt scary or yeah.

So that's been- Yeah. I feel like we complemented each other really well- Mm ... when it comes to like having open conversations and, and making each other feel heard and met and really like, yeah But

Fer: yeah.

Kata: Yeah.

Fer: Yeah, and even if it's no because I feel insecure, that can be valid, but, but then you should know that's why, right?

Like, it shouldn't be like- Yeah ... no, because that's not okay, or no, because I don't like that person that you're dating, right? And instead of taking ownership for your feelings, I mean, like, "No, this is hard for me right now and I feel insecure, but, you know, maybe in the future I'll feel more secure" and, and just like everyone being aware that that's the reason and [00:31:00] not making it out to be- Yeah

something that it, that isn't, right?

Kata: Yeah, exactly. And yeah, I think that was a really important thing to add, like also going at the pace of the insecurity. Like, we don't have to push through 'cause then also we can create more traumatic experiences- Yeah ... rather than create all these, like, juicy positive experiences together and then ultimately make a more, yeah, positive experience when it comes to, like, opening up.

'Cause ultimately, even though we both came from, like, an open background, which made, like, the conversations and communication much easier, we are building our own way of being open, and that brings its own little, little triggers and we need to create our own, our own positive experiences.

Yeah.

Fer: Yeah, I love that.

Okay. So now tell us about the, the rupture. Was it unfaithfulness or the betrayal? I think that's a word that you might have used.

Kata: Yeah, betrayal. Yeah, that's... Ultimately our relationship fell into a betrayal, and every time I tell people that, "Oh, you know, my relationship with my ex who I was open with ended in betrayal" people are always like, "How can it be cheating if you were [00:32:00] open?"

And so there were agreements that were not met, and I don't wanna go too much into detail just to protect privacy, but yeah, some agreements were broken and there was too much there that would've had to be repaired for me to wanna get into that work. Yeah, we fairly amicably separated. Yeah And this was also an interesting time 'cause I was still, like, lovers with JJ, and we had been kind of like traveling lovers, right?

JJ: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I guess so. I was-- I went from like a comet lover, I guess- Mm ... to kind of, kind of joining me on the nomadic, semi-nomadic period.

Kata: Yeah. So then when the, the breakup happened, I first spent some time by myself and lived with my girlfriends for three months. That honestly the best way to heal, move in with your girlfriend and girlfriends and like purge.

And after that, I, yeah, traveled quite a bit [00:33:00] with JJ. Very aware of not creating too much of like an attachment or like finding safety now in another man. So I was quite hyper-aware of that, but we had a lot of fun. And this is the time when JJ and I also started deepening our, our relationship, and because we were spending so much time together, it started feeling more like a primary relationship eventually.

And I think you talked about this in your, in your episode.

JJ: Yeah, I did, in the- Like- ... in the, the non-relationship episode. Yeah. Yeah.

Kata: So like even earlier in our relationship, we tended-- we did the non-monogamy, non-

JJ: It's non, um-

Kata: Non-relationship talk.

JJ: Yeah. Non-escalated relationship. Yeah.

Kata: The, the worksheet we linked it.

Relationship non-escalator-

JJ: Yeah ...

Kata: worksheet to kind of align, okay, like, what, what is in our relationship that doesn't have to do with like the mono-normativity of escalator, right? And so we did that like pretty much every six months just to see like, okay, do we wanna share each other on Instagram? What do we [00:34:00] share?

What is okay? And like different agreements. And so-- and this is after a year of being separated more or less.

JJ: Mm-hmm.

Kata: We were in Mexico, and we did the escalator again to see kind of, for me, it was to see if we're still aligned. Like is-- can this become a primary partnership or not? And then what came out of that was like I-- for me, it was very important to have children, and JJ was still uncertain if he wanted children at that point.

This, for me, had created this idea, like, okay, shit, I'm putting so much time and effort on our relationship, and he's not certain if he wants children, so I wanted to start looking elsewhere And then I actually started dating someone, and I told JJ like, "Oh, this might be, like, future baby daddy." And then- I-

Fer: Okay, okay, hold on.

Hold on. Let's slow, slow down for a second. Okay, so- It's so

Kata: hard to, like, map, like, years into, like, a short episode. Yeah.

Fer: Yeah, yeah. No worries. You know, [00:35:00] we'll go deeper in some parts and go faster in some others, but that's okay. So yeah, JJ, how did that settle with you when she said that? Because I, I imagine that you wanted primary partnership with her, but you didn't want kids, right?

So it's like, well, what... That's a conflicting position to be in.

JJ: Well, my wife and I had been trying to have kids, and we went through IVF, and there was a lot of... The results we did, we took, basically pointed to me being the problem, and it was, like, a big hit on my masculinity at the time, and she really wasn't super supportive at that time, my, my ex-wife.

And eventually, when we ended, we, we had embryos, and they had to be destroyed. So it just felt like I just had a lot of, like, trauma and stuff around trying to have kids, and I just know how hard it can be. So, you know, I hadn't really healed that wound. So when Kata and I sort of kept doing that escalator, I felt like, "Okay, yeah, maybe this isn't..."

You know, it still felt like, yeah, I don't know if I'm, I'm really up for this, you know? But then, you know, by the by, [00:36:00] when she... It wasn't even... She didn't even say, "Baby daddy." She talked about a conversation with her friends where they were, like, talking about baby daddy. And I was like, "Wait, what?" And it's interesting when I hear her retell this because when we did the non-escalator relationship, like, she didn't say, "Oh, by the way, this is what I..."

Like, I guess you intimated it, but you didn't say it super clearly, so I was not sure, like, that was what was happening.

Fer: She didn't say super clearly what?

JJ: That- Mm ... that she really needs this, and if, if I don't provide this, then this will... I will look awful. I mean, you did, but, uh, maybe I just didn't grok it completely.

Kata: I remember saying that this is important to me and- I don't wanna rush him, but I'm also not gonna be in the waiting room.

Fer: Mm. Mm-hmm.

JJ: Yeah. So I didn't feel like it was an ultimatum at all. I felt like it was like we just had that conversation, and it felt good. But then, yeah, it was a few months later when we were apart, and I think I was in, you know, I think I was in South America, and I was on the phone, and I really felt like, okay, I wanna be anchor partners.

And, you know, I'd heard that, you know, I think I- probably a little before I'd heard the baby daddy, it just... and I checked in with her, and she's like, "Yeah, I need to look for this. This is important." Like, I'm, I'm ready [00:37:00] to start focusing on this. It just... Like, I definitely did a bit of soul-searching, and it felt like internally I was like it would just feel so wrong to n- like, or at least just like I want to be that person is what I just felt inside.

Like, I want to be the person raising children with you. And I, like, had to reckon with that a little bit. And then, you know, after a bit of time, I said to her, like, "I really wanna be anchor partners. Like, I wanna do this." It wasn't something we could do overnight 'cause that was in... that's like March of 2024, like when- Mm

when we said that, and still it's taken us a few years to even get to where we are here, to getting to the point of ready to like, okay, can we start a family? But, you know, it's happening. You know, we've put the work in, and we're continuing to.

Fer: Yeah. So yeah, so you felt, you f- you know, your body's telling you like, "Oh, wait, do you do want- Yeah

you maybe do want these things." So, so yeah, how did you move from there? How did you have that conversation, if you did, that you were maybe more open to kids if Especially if that meant the, you know, primary partnership with her

JJ: She'd actually been dating somebody that I had ended up meeting [00:38:00] 'cause we happened to be in the same city, and, and she'd left, and I, and I saw him on the street.

Fer: Not, not the baby daddy, a different-

JJ: No. Well, no, but someone she was dating on that time when she was looking for baby daddy.

Fer: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

JJ: And so, and that was where the whole kinda context came up of, you know, and, and he'd visited her in, in Europe, and then, you know... A- anyway, it didn't work out between them, but it was that, that experience really got me of like, oh, like somebody else coming in and, like, being a potential match and her being excited, and I was like, "Oh, really?

Well, this just doesn't feel..." I was like, "I don't... Why, why am I doing this?" You know? And so I think it was a pretty big, intense moment for me, and then when I came to visit her in Spain, 'cause she decided to live in Spain, lived in Barcelona with one of her best friends. And I came and saw her, and then we talked about it, and I said like, "Hey, I really wanna...

I'm actually really interested in this." And we sat down and we really talked about it, and we decided we wanted to do it. But she decided, and I very much agreed, that she wanted to just continue to live alone for, or live apart for the year.

Fer: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, yeah, I [00:39:00] think that just a quick comment on how you meeting this potential person, like, made you be like, "Oh, wait, I wanna be that person," right?

Like, I think that sometimes your partners, other relationships give you a little kick in the butt to realize what you want, right? Call it jealousy or however you wanna call it, I think sometimes it's useful in showing you what you truly want and pushing you to- Yeah ... to go and get it, you know? So, so that's interesting.

JJ: So, so throughout 2024, she lived in, in Barcelona, and that was when I started trialing out Lisbon on my own.

Fer: Mm-hmm.

JJ: Nice, so- 'Cause as you can imagine, it's like there was a fear of, like, for both of us of being rebounding. Even though we already were together, there was still a fear of like, well, what if she doesn't really have that healing, you know, time?

Kata: Yeah. I wanted to know that I can stand on my own feet instead of just moving in with another, another man straight away. And- Yeah, had a really fun year living with my, with my best friend.

Fer: How did you then end up together Lisbon, and also what were the agreements at that point? Because, I mean, we've been talking [00:40:00] about what was going on on your side, Cata, but, like, during the time you were dating before you had that conversation in Barcelona, JJ was also dating other people, right?

So how did you navigate your openness and ultimately your decision to become anchor partners?

JJ: Well, from my end, I, I was definitely a lot more active than Kata was, like, around that time, as I sort of told in my story. But for me, in that time of 2024 was basically when I was really committed to moving to Europe.

I'm, I'm Australian, but I'm also Hungarian, and I have a passport from my Hungarian side, and so I felt like I was really feeling a call to live in Europe. And so a lot of my lovers and connections were actually based in the US, based on where I used to live. And so it started to get to a point, like, in 2024 when I felt very c- confident that I was moving to Europe, but I felt like I had to-- I just couldn't really keep up a deep partnership with anyone.

So there was a particular partner I had that we, we decided to move back at the friendship because I [00:41:00] just d- couldn't commit to coming back to the US regularly. So from that perspective, I already felt like, okay, this is, you know, I, you know, I felt committed to my relationship with Kata, and I explained it to other lovers, but also made it clear that I don't-- I didn't have the desire to just to keep flying back across the continent, you know, four or five times a year, which is what you really need to be doing, I think, with a partnership.

And so from that perspective, it felt, it felt pretty clear to me. And, and I basically trialed Lisbon out properly in, in the summer of 2024 and spent a lot of time there on my own and actually really decided that, that this is where I wanna be. And slowly had to try to see if Kata would be convinced-

Fer: Hmm

JJ: you know, to, to potentially move over there. I was doing a, an effort to try to actually work on seeing if I could pitch it to her.

Fer: Mm-hmm.

JJ: So you

Fer: pitched. Yeah, evidently- Was it? ... he did. So, so Kata, 'cause you mentioned with your ex, the f- the first time that he went on a date, you had [00:42:00] a lot of compersion, but is that kind of how you've always been?

How was your experience of JJ having other partners while you were non-anchor partners and then as you were anchor partners?

Kata: Yeah, I feel like compersion has somehow been, like, my default or just how I am. And I remember when I was younger, like, not understanding jealousy, but then with my ex learned that, oh, I can get envious when our relationship isn't cared for or our quality time isn't prioritized.

So then it was more like, oh, as long as home base is safe and loving, I really just felt compersion for whatever else was happening. And yeah, when I was with JJ during that time, I just felt, I don't know, like, curious about your lovers. I, I met a bunch of them. Didn't really- I know, I guess cele- celebratory.

I don't know. It felt very natural.

Fer: Hmm.

Kata: Then after the, the breakup with the betrayal, and then after moving in together, I sensed a shift in myself where I [00:43:00] started feeling extremely anxious when JJ would go with someone else. And we d- we do preemptive couples therapy together, and had done for a year before we moved in together.

So then I already had a therapist who knew my mind and our patterns really well. So when my anxiety started getting really bad, I went and had sessions with her again, and kind of found out that I had gotten, like, some sort of PTSD symptoms from, from, like, okay, my, my partner going with someone else now triggers I might lose my home or my attachments- Hmm

and my ultimate safety. So it became very- Hmm ... visceral. Like my, rationally, I still felt very, this is, like, aligns with my values, like, aligns with who I am, but my body was just, like, saying, "No, no, no, no, no." So that was a very challenging experience to go through and, and I used a lot of, like, IFS therapy or, like, internal family systems therapy on myself, like talking to my inner parts, talking to my triggered parts, and kind of like re-parenting myself and using some [00:44:00] somatic exercises that then helped me in, in situations when, like, JJ would go on a date and, and I started feeling very panicky, but there was no reason to be panicky.

Like, this was also, like, a reality check. Like, JJ had given me no reason to be panicky. But so that's something that we started dealing with after we moved in together. And I think also Yeah, just the weight of living with someone and now you're like primary or anchor partners again just created this, this reaction.

And, and also, yeah, I also remember it being like JJ was much more active in Lisbon, was going on dates and connecting with people, being open to connections in general, and I felt much more closed. And I feel like that also created an imbalance in all my capacity goes to JJ, and JJ has like, "Yes, I have a lot of capacity for you, but also like for other lovers or like even to friends," right?

And I felt that I've [00:45:00] just moved to a new country, so I hadn't yet built a strong friend base. All I had was JJ. So it felt like on all openness aside, just like very, like a very vulnerable time.

JJ: Mm.

Kata: Yeah.

JJ: So we had a period there where actually Karta asked me to slow down. She asked me to not, said, "Can you..."

We had an agreement for me not to see anyone new for a few months, and we never had anything like that before. She told me some of this context, but I wasn't completely aware of, of the, the full extent of the PTSD, but it makes a lot of sense. But yeah, we ended up having an agreement that I wouldn't see anyone new for a few months and-- But what really helped is that she gave me a, a sense that this will be somewhere between one to two months, and indeed within that timeframe where she came back and said, "Hey, I'm feeling better now.

Like, please, please go ahead, and, you know, you can continue dating." Yeah. That also created a lot of trust in me. Like yes, it was a bit surprising to like, "Hey, have this shift," but the trust was rest- like there when we-- she did indeed within that timeframe without me having to like nag or anything, said [00:46:00] like, "Hey, I'm actually really reflected on this, and I feel better now.

Thank you."

Kata: Yeah. I think we did like a three-month period of being closed except for remaining partners that none of them lived in Europe anyway. So technically closed. Um-

Fer: Mm-hmm

Kata: And in that time, I had time to just land in a new country. I think that's what I ultimately needed. And then when we reopened, it also wasn't like balls to the walls, but like you know, JJ did it very intentionally.

We did a lot of check-ins and things like that, just, like, more than we had before, which felt also, like, added to the sense of safety.

Fer: Yeah. Yeah, and I think it's so important to be able to ask your partner to slow down sometimes. I understand if your partner has another significant partner, that you should also take into consideration the other partner, right?

And their desire to slow down and all of that. But, like, I do think that that creates a sense of safety of, you know, I know that at any point, if it's feeling too much for me, this [00:47:00] will be something that will be taken into consideration. It's not like my partner is gonna go ahead without me, right? Because I feel like that's what I see a lot that makes non-monogamy very difficult for people, the uncertainty, right?

Like, there's already a lot of uncertainty. Like, if your partner goes on a date, are they gonna like each other? This and that, da, da, da. But then if on top of that you have the uncertainty of like, "If I don't like it, could I then slow down?" Like- Mm-hmm ... and, and having that I think is really important. But I also think it's sometimes it's hard for people to even ask for that, you know?

Yeah. I think a lot of people feel, and I don't know if it was hard for you, Cata, but a lot of people feel like, "Oh, I should be able to deal with my insecurities," or, "We've been open for so long. I'm not a good poly person if, if I don't let my partner do what they want." So I don't know if you experienced any of that.

Kata: Yeah, no, I definitely had a lot of fears of being, like, I didn't wanna be seen as, like, needy or possessive or... Like, I wanted to be, like, this cool girl who can be open and super chill [00:48:00] about it. And I remember our therapist saying, like, "But Kata, the fact that you feel needy, maybe you just have needs that need to be met."

Fer: Yeah.

Kata: And I'm

JJ: like, "

Kata: Yeah, probably right." And-

JJ: Yeah ...

Kata: reckoning with, yeah, with the parts of me that felt like this is not, this doesn't match my self-image. And but this is, like, a reality of a part of me that feels really unsafe right now. And because it was a relational wound, yes, I can do it, and I did, like, a lot of work on myself, but ultimately it is something that's gonna be mirrored in, in JJ because we are in a partnership, so he was also really good at guiding me.

And we had this, like, thing what we, that we did before dates and after the dates, and if it was abroad, he would call me before and after, where he would just tell me, "How do you feel? You are safe." And it's so funny 'cause, like, I had initiated this exercise, and every time when he called me or he would be like, [00:49:00] "Kata, I'm just checking in with you.

How do you feel?" And I'd be like, "I feel good." And then he's like, "You're safe," and I'd just start crying. Mm. So it became this, like, somatic, like, holding, saying, "You're safe. I love you. I'm here for you." And then he would go on the date and then come back and do the same thing. And that ultimately I think imprinted in my body that, like, like, I don't have to be cool with it and that I am safe, you know?

Mm. And that he's there to hold that. I... That, that was a really, really powerful practice that we did for, like, a few months.

Fer: I love that. Yeah. And you mentioned somatic exercises a couple of times and, you know, that's also what I teach my clients and what I do when I feel activated, right? But I'm curious to hear also from you as a therapist as well, any other tips for people who might be, you know, freaking out when their partner is on a date or anything like that that helped you in that process?

Kata: If one has the resources and the financial means, I would 100% recommend having a coach or a therapist [00:50:00] or somebody else to kind of help navigate the expectations, the communication, and the, the kind of desires and fears around opening up. And you're kind of like putting your attachment wounds on steroids, right?

And I know there are a lot of resources also out there that are free. But a somatic practice that I did when I would feel like there was like anxiety coming up and I would like, yeah, I'm like an anxiety attack, like feel numb in my palms. I would feel like maybe like, yeah, just go fully in my head and like out of body when I would know JJ's on a date and it's like reaching like 8:00 PM, like when potentially they would be like out of a restaurant and potentially going home to sleep together.

I would just lay down on the bed and I would like tap, tap myself on the chest. I'm

JJ: doing it now because of the mic.

Kata: Tap myself on the chest and take deep breaths, have a deeper, like a longer out breath. I would hug myself and kind of imagine or visualize that [00:51:00] Me, Kata today, I'm here with the Kata who went through the breakup and now feels really scared.

Mm-hmm. And it's almost like you would be sitting with your younger sister or, like, your younger self and, like, talk to them in the way that they would've needed, in, in a way that they would need to hear. And I think that was a really powerful way to process. And things that I would say would be, "Kata, you are safe.

I understand it's very scary because of what you went through, but this is JJ, he's very safe. Look how he's showing up." And, like, kind of bring myself back to reality.

Fer: Mm-hmm.

Kata: And also allowing, allowing my younger part to, like, feel the fear and sadness, you know? Mm-hmm. Like, yes, it was really scary, and yes, it is sad, and yes, we're going through grief.

And, and, like, holding her at the same time. Yeah.

Fer: Hmm. I love that. I love that. You know, you touched on some parts of the method that I use from a meditation teacher. It's called RAIN. I talk about it all the time, but I have an episode where I go through it, so I [00:52:00] can link that in the show notes. And also if people, as you said, if people want and have the resources for, for therapy or coaching, you know, I'd be happy to also direct them to you.

I mean, I'm sure that you'd be a great resource. I don't know if you have a website or whatever, but I can add the info there in the show notes. You know, I'm also a coach, so a- again, as you mentioned, there's things that require a financial investment or, or financial resources that people might not have, but there's also things that are free, right?

The- Yeah ... the episode I just mentioned is free. I have a jealousy survival guide that is free. I'll also add it to the, to the show notes. Yeah. But I think even this conversation, right, this conversation- Yeah ... is free. And what you just mentioned, I hope that people can take that with them and be like, "Okay, I'm gonna tap myself on the chest, exhale for longer than I'm inhaling, and then just talk to myself and think of myself as, as the younger self that's scared" you know?

Yeah. And in your case was your breakup and betrayal and all of that, but for some other [00:53:00] people it might be their parents leaving them or, you know- Yeah ... like, it can be anything, right? But we all have our traumas, and we all have our reasons- Yeah ... why we might feel insecure, and it's okay to give space to that inner child or- Yeah

younger version of ourselves.

Kata: Yeah. And I think maybe something else that also important to mention, 'cause we often, or at least I often talk about, like, doing the work and, like, we have to, like, inquire and, like, find out. Like, I could do this work because I knew which part of me was hurt, so, like, getting to know the inner, inner child or the inner parts.

But then I think it's also important to mention that- It's also okay not to do the work all the time, 'cause in open relationships you can have so many trigger situations, and it, you can kind of get stuck into this like, "What does this mean?" And, "Uh, what can I find out?" And I just want people to know that they have permission also to just, like, you can veg out and watch Netflix and give your system a break from, like, doing the work.

Fer: Yeah.

Kata: And therefore have more capacity to also do the work at another time.

Fer: Yeah, for sure. Which is also [00:54:00] why, you know, you asked for that break, right? Of like, yes, I can do this work when you're on a date, but when it becomes every week, it's just hard- Yeah ... for me to, you know, have moments when I'm not doing the work, and those are important, too, you know?

Kata: Yeah. Yeah. Very good example.

JJ: Mm.

Fer: Yeah. Awesome. Okay, so tell me, you know, where you are today. I mean, you've kind of mentioned that JJ was dating more than you were, but what does it look like? You've settled more in Lisbon now. Are you both dating independently? I, I also know that you mentioned before we started recording that, you know, for JJ, group play is important, and playing with you is something that he enjoys or he would like, and for you, you prefer the separate dates and such.

Kata: I think we're both laughing because it's such a big topic and- ... I mean, my dating capacity has been, like, zero. I've been on, like, two dates since I've moved to Portugal, and none of them continued to become any- anything more. And some people joke like, oh, I'm almost acting monogamous, [00:55:00] which I don't relate to, because I still feel open.

Like, I still feel like I'm a person in an open relationship. My intention was never to just- actively date all the time, right? It's more just to have the permission to do that when it feels right. And my attention has been more on building community, friendships, and a home. So I think that's been definitely taking away from my, my, like, dating outside of the relationship, right?

But then what we have been focusing more on, and also with the guidance of our therapist, like, how to find safety into exploring together. Like, we've been going to temples together, and we've been, yeah, finding really cute and, and beautiful, like, sensual spaces with friends as well. We have a really beautiful group of friends in Lisbon who are very open-minded and also, like, curious to explore different ways of relating.

So we've been very softly, [00:56:00] gently started to explore mostly sensual, a little bit erotic spaces together, which for me has felt very nurturing.

Fer: Can you just quickly describe for people who might not know what temples are?

Kata: Oh, yeah. Good point.

JJ: The way that I see neo-tantric temples, 'cause that's what they really are, as spaces of, of, of eros.

Like, like, hopefully very full consent, a lot of conversation-based spaces where sensuality and eros is welcome by any number of people, but these are always sober spaces. So usually just people spend hours doing workshops around consent and communication, and then they'll have temple spaces in the evening where you might dress up.

Sometimes it's like there's a lot of u- usually BDSM, so usually there'll be people in a corner who have ropes who might tie people, and other people might wanna be spanked, or maybe some people wanna just wrestle and have fun. Maybe some people wanna cuddle. Maybe someone wants to go in a corner and actually have a grief process.

That's also welcome. So maybe people wanna dance in the middle. Like, a space where the idea is that all of [00:57:00] the emotions are really welcome, and eros is allowed, too.

Fer: Yeah, and there's, you know, play allowed, but no penetration, right? So they're-

JJ: Depends on the temple. Depends on the temple. There's actually- Mm

I've been to some that are full anything is allowed agreements, and other ones where it's like you keep your underwear on. And I've personally found so much creative flair in having restrictions like that because there's so much you can do, actually. Mm. Even without touching someone, there's actually so much.

Fer: Cool. Well, that's great that you guys are exploring that space. So sounds like, JJ, you're still dating other people, and Kata, is it feeling... You know, after doing that somatic work and all of that, is it feeling a little bit better? Still it's, it's a little triggering for you, or where are you at in that process?

Kata: I feel really good with JJ going on individual dates. Like, that trigger has been healed, so to say. I guess I just haven't been prioritizing making erotic, erotic connections, but more friend-based connections. [00:58:00] Doesn't mean I'm not open to it, it's just I'm, I'm not actively making effort to, to find those connections.

Fer: Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. Okay, so last question: given, you know, everything that you've gone through and that you've shared with us today, what would you tell to a poly-curious person, someone who's new in this journey and that needs some wisdom to maybe make a few less mistakes than you guys did?

Kata: I think from, from my end, definitely, like, don't rush.

Go as slow as you need. There's no cool factor in being able to do, like, the most open thing as fast as possible. Listen to your body. If it, something feels too much, it probably is. And you have your whole lifetime to explore. You'll get to a point that feels good and juicy, but take your time. And yeah, go as slow [00:59:00] as your slowest parts and your, your insecure and unsafe parts need to.

Yeah. 'Cause then that, again, allows you to experience more positive interactions rather than going full on and then becoming extremely constricted and maybe traumatized, and now you're dealing with that on top of it. So baby steps.

Fer: I love it. Very much how I approach as well open relating. JJ, I, I think I probably asked you this question You did.

No, I've been thinking about it ... in your previous episode. And so if you wanna skip, that's, that's

JJ: okay. No, I'm trying to think about it, like, what would've worked on me, you know? I feel like retreats, if you find the right ones through word of mouth, could really be a nice way to, just to explore a different world.

'Cause I definitely thought of this world and kink and all those things as being really, like, devious and dark and drug-fueled and stuff. And then when I started doing, you know, neo-tantric retreats, I was like, "Oh, wow, there's a whole nother world out here." And it, and it's not just about the eros, it's also about, uh, s- the, the [01:00:00] trauma and, and witnessing people work through their trauma.

It just feels, for me, I started really connecting to other humans and other humans' experiences and really feeling how we're all the, the oneness even though we're all so different. So I guess that would be my advice if you're a curious-minded, explorative person. Look into some, into some retreats to have a different portal into a different world.

Fer: Mm. Sounds good. And I'll ask you for links to, to retreats and such so people can, you know, look for them in the show notes. I mean, obviously there's Ista, which I know that you've been to, but- Yeah ... I'm sure that you know of some others as well. Wonderful. Well, thank you guys so much for being on the podcast.

And yeah, love to hear that. Sounds like you're thriving.

Kata: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for providing a platform for people- Mm ... to learn and to hear these conversations that so often are held within private doors.

JJ: Yeah.

Fer: Yeah. Well, couldn't have done it without you, so thank

you. [01:01:00]