Ross: [00:00:00] I would announce that I'm a poly man, and before women would get attached to me, they'd be fine with that. And when they actually saw that this was happening and that they weren't going to get as much of me as they wanted, they got hurt. And so I kind of got in a pattern of even though I was communicating my desires and who I was, that I was still hurting women, through their expectations of me. And, I learned a lot from that experience because people, even though they, they tell you that they may be okay with something, they're often just either hoping you're gonna change, or they are, expecting things to just be different ​

 Hi, everyone. I am Fer, relationship coach and your host. Welcome to Polycurious. [00:01:00] Today, I am talking to Ross and Eden.They are a couple that I haven't known for long, but from what I can tell, they are amazing. They are a power couple. Not only do they have, what seems like a very fulfilling non-monogamous relationship,

But also, they're business partners. they are tantra practitioners, intimacy and relationship coaches, and community builders specializing in conscious relationships and ethical non-monogamy.

Now, what we talk about today is their process moving from both dating other people when they met and being in situations where they weren't sure if they were a match for life partnership and for primary partnership, to realizing that they were,

And today they have built their relationship in a way that works for them, that's not as poly [00:02:00] and as non-hierarchical And as full of different partners as it was when they first met, but instead they are choosing to still be non-monogamous, but limited in a way that feels comfortable to them. So for example, they have what they call hall passes. So three to four times a year, they play separately with other people.

They might spend a weekend or they might go to a party with someone else, or whatever it is. But they're not constantly dating other people and constantly having to go through a nervous system rollercoaster and dealing with jealousy and all of that. They have realized that what they enjoy the most and feel most comfortable with is dating people together.

I think mostly, if not solely women at this point. But they have had, and I believe currently have, partners that they feel very aligned with, or lovers,

So I really appreciated that they were like, "No, no, no. We [00:03:00] actually still want poly, so we're not gonna close the relationship. But we want it in this specific way that allows us not just for our nervous system to be more regulated, but also for us to focus more on each other and devote ourselves to each other in a way that feels much healthier and intentional."

So today we talk about their process building this relationship that works for them. So in Ross' case, he was dating several women,

 that weren't quite what he was looking for for a life partnership, but he was still continuing those relationships because he enjoyed them.

And you might feel identified with this. In non-monogamy, we don't actually need to break up if we realize that this is not the person that you want to marry and have kids with, right? You can still continue seeing them because you can still, in theory, go and find that person to do those things with, or they can go and find that person to do those things with, while maintaining the connection.

 However, eventually [00:04:00] Ross realized that he was pouring too much of his energy on women that weren't the best fit, and he wasn't actually allowing himself to be in a space to focus on someone, which eventually ended up being Eden, who would actually be the best fit for him and for what he wanted.

And not only was he not doing a service to himself he was also not doing a service to the women that he was dating because some of them actually did want life partnership with him or did want a different level of commitment from what he could offer. And while he was always upfront about what he could and could not offer, these women were also having a hard time

On Eden's side, she, when she met Ross, had another partner that, as she said, had [00:05:00] more seniority. So this other partner was requesting things from her that she did not feel the most comfortable with. So because he was feeling activated by Eden finding a new connection with Ross, he requested that she did not have group sex with Ross and other people.

He also requested that Eden didn't squirt with Ross. He was asking Eden to not do things that she wanted to do, but that triggered him. And as we get into the episode, I do think that especially at the beginning, it can be okay to ask your partner not to do certain things or for your partner to ask you that.

But it's a thin line, right? And sometimes it's really hard to know, is this my partner being controlling? Is this too much for me to do? Or is this part of the process, and should I be compassionate and patient and trust that they will get there? [00:06:00] And to me, I think that the answer lies in judgment.

 Is your partner asking you not to do certain things because they are telling you that you shouldn't, that you are not a good partner because you have those desires?

Or are they saying, "There's nothing wrong with you wanting the things that you want. I just can't give them to you right now because I'm struggling, but I'm working to get there"? And I think that it is very important to recognize that difference.

 if you love what you heard and you want more, Check out my bonus content with Eden and Ross, where we talked about their controversial open-phone policy and why it works for them, as well as their process with hierarchy and how they went from perhaps having more of a non-hierarchical mindset to realizing that what they wanted was to prioritize their relationship while still [00:07:00] doing it in a way that's respectful to the other people that they're dating.

Fer: Okay, guys, without further ado, here is my interview with Eden and Ross. Eden and Ross, welcome to Polycurious. I'm so excited to connect. I love when I meet people, like, out in the world, and we have similarities, but we might not live in the same place, right? You guys are in Philly, I'm in Denver. We met at a festival in Maryland that my New York crew, organizes. And then, you know, usually at those festivals you meet people and you're like, "Oh, you're so great.

It'd be great to connect," but then you never see them again, right? But now we have the excuse to have a podcast conversation, so I'm so excited to, to be able to get to know you a little bit better.

Eden: Yeah, just a week later.

Fer: Ja

Eden: it was so nice to meet you. It was such a lovely crossover, of interests and lifestyles, so it's always so delightful to meet people, um, in this [00:08:00] realm. How'd you like that

Fer: And just... Oh, well, I love it. I mean, I've been going since, they started. We were 60 people, and now, as you know, we're, like, 1,000, and the first time I entered the community was the first time they did it. It wasn't called... By the way, we're talking about CAMP, Calling All Magical People.

Shout out if anyone wants to check it out. It's

Eden: It's amazing

Fer: so you were teaching, a Shibari workshop, right?

Eden: meets Shibari. So it's like somatic Shibari. So a lot of people think Shibari is about dominance and submission, and the way that we teach it is it's a very somatic, meditative intimacy practice for two people to cultivate trust, let go of control, create a sense of surrender and connection that, the rope really helps wind and bind and co-create, like co-regulating your nervous systems between two people

Fer: I love that. I would have loved to join, but my workshop happened to be exactly at the same time. We were talking about it. Um, so, you know, mine was [00:09:00] about non-monogamy without the mess, so all the tips for people who are, you know, in this world, like everything I wish I knew. but we got to meet anyways, which is great, and then turns out that we both, know, Vee and Elle from Girls Gone Deep podcast.

Uh, you both were a guest on their podcast. I was also a guest on, their podcast. So a lot of, you know, crossover similarities. so I did listen to, to those episodes of Girls Gone Deep and also a couple others that, that you had been on. and you know, you did talk a little bit about your relationship

But I have so many questions 'cause there are so many gaps in the story. So maybe let's just start from the beginning. So, you two obviously are partners, but you're s- also are business partners, right? And you collaborate, you are creating community and doing, Tantra events, et cetera.

So tell us a little bit about kind of what your relationship is like, not just, in terms of your partnership and [00:10:00] non-monogamy and, and all of that, but also your business relationship.

Yeah, we have been business partners for the last year, and we've been lovers for the last three and a half years. And we took it to the next level about two years ago and decided to really commit to each other, and we had a, a personal growth journey - Which we could get more into, yeah ... yeah, to, to arrive there. so on the business side, I'm a erotic leadership coach for men, a conscious dating coach for men, and I have a group of about 100 men that I meet with twice a month to talk about men's work and men's issues with the context of being in your masculine leadership and, enjoying putting yourself out there in a way that invites choice to the people around you. And, If I could- ... Evita does something, something complementary to that. If I could chime in, basically what Ross does is he coaches men. And what he means by erotic [00:11:00] leadership is, like, how to initiate connection, flirtation, play without being cringey or creepy or weird, um, which we all need more of in the world for sure. but women can also, you know, couples, everybody in the poly realm, um, could u- use a little, little bit more erotic leadership. and similarly, I identify as an intimacy and relationship coach focusing on ethical non-monogamy, and we teach it through essentially a somatic lens, a somatic and tantra lens. So we teach, nervous system regulation. and how to successfully open your relationship or, open it in a way that feels nourishing and healthy, Mm-hmm

Eden: within that we have workshops, play parties that we call Tantra Temples. So they're vetted tantra-focused play parties as well as retreats, our online community, and, [00:12:00] I also am the co-founder of Temple of Eden, which while it has my name, it's not quite named after me. It's co-created by my collaborators Leora Ward and Aruna Sanopa, and it's an all-women femme recurring, tantra play party. Some consider it an on-ramp for women into sexuality, into ENM, into queerness, and a place where they could feel safe and embodied and held in sisterhood. So that's what I do, and it overlaps with Ross' men's work as well as our overall ecosystem of teaching tantra and ENM.

Fer: I love it. I think that you both are creating things that are very needed. Um, you know, spaces where women can explore their sexuality with other women. I think that we need more of those, as well as spaces that guide men in this complicated time that we're in, right? Like, I have had [00:13:00] so many conversations with men where they don't wanna be creeps, right?

 And it sometimes feels like they are, are either creeps or they're, like, too shy to approach you because they're afraid of making the wrong move, right? And, and I think that we really need more men who are respectful but also open and honest and vulnerable about their desires and forward about their desires.

 but before we get into your tips for men and women and all the things, I wanna hear about your love story basically. So how did you guys meet?

 where were you at in terms of your non-monogamous journey? Was it something that you had been exploring or is it something that you've been exploring together mostly?

Eden: Yeah. We met at a ecstatic dance festival. We were both teaching at this festival, and I was teaching a sensual bachata partner dance class, and you were teaching a somatic- Nervous system regulation, [00:14:00] polyvagal theory class. So she was... She came to my class, and, we definitely noticed each other, though she was in a partnership at the time. Um- Which was non-monogamous. Which was non-monogamous. And, her partner noticed our, our chemistry right away, and he subtly and not so subtly, protected her from me in ways. Well, we'll not say protected. He got a little alpha. I mean, for context, he said to me, "What's up with you and Ross?" And I said, "What are you talking about? I just met this man." And he's like, "There's something between you." And I was like, "I don't s- I just met

Fer: Sparks right

Eden: Yeah. I didn't even notice it myself, but my partner at the time did. And then from there, Ross and I, you know, had a few conversations. We met again at another festival later in the summer. Yeah, we were just, we were just friends. Crossing paths, yeah

Fer: And was this in Philly or in DC [00:15:00] or

Eden: It was in Pennsylvania. It was an ecstatic dance festival at, like a Boy Scout camp. There was a couple hundred people in our Philly ecstatic dance community, which that's where we met, was through our ecstatic dance friends, which is a sober, conscious dance community. For anyone who doesn't know, there's no shoes, no talking, no alcohol. The idea is, like, dance is your medicine, so very movement-based, somatic community. and then Ross had a birthday party. He messaged me and was like, "Do you wanna come?" And then, for lack of a better term, we basically hooked up for two days straight at his birthday party.

Fer: With the consent of your partner at the

Eden: Yeah. Yeah, of course. So he and I weren't like, um, primaries at that time. We had just been seeing each other, and we had an agreement that we could, you know, play or see other people. but after my experience with Ross, then suddenly he wanted to escalate with me when he hadn't wanted to before. He had started

Fer: That happens sometimes

Eden: Yeah, where I was-- [00:16:00] He was like, "I don't wanna be with you." And I was like, "All right, well, I'm gonna go see this Ross guy again." And then suddenly he was like, "Oh, well, I don't want you to, play with Ross with other people." You know? He's like, "You can hook up with other people. You can have threesomes, foursomes, moresomes, play parties, but please don't do that with Ross." and that was challenging for me because- That sucked. That was the first year of our relationship. My partner at the time had put a lot of, agreements on me to limit, the escalation of our connection as far as how often we could see each other, for how long. And in hindsight, you know, if there's anything I learned from that, it's, it's not really an agreement if you're being strong-armed into doing it.

Fer: Riah

Eden: and so, yeah, I was with that partner for about a year. we were reflecting yesterday actually on some s- some agreements such as like you can't squirt with Ross.

Fer: [00:17:00] Oh.

' Cause he found out that I could learn how to squirt, and he's like, "How'd you do that?" I was like, "With Ross." And he was like, "You can't do that. You haven't done that with me." did you agree to that? Let's, let's maybe stay here for a little bit, because I think this topic is actually really fascinating. Because I think there's a lot of people that, especially nowadays, that are like, "My body is my body, and, you know, no one can tell me what to do with it." And you know, and I agree with,

Eden: Mm.

Fer: I mean, part of that.

But I also do understand that sometimes your partner might need you to go slower or might have a particular trig- trigger with a specific person. So the way that I view it is those sort of restrictions are sometimes okay, as long as they are temporary and the partner that's setting them is aware that they're not in the right,

 that they eventually do want to give you that freedom. That's how I see it. But it also depends, right? Because one thing is to [00:18:00] say, " I don't want you to play with Ross and other people." Maybe, like, he had a particular trigger because... I know this wasn't the case, but I can imagine some people, like maybe, I- I've heard this before, they haven't had playgroup experiences with their partner, and they, they kind of wanna be the first or something, right?

So I can kind of, understand that. But, but when you get to the nitty-gritty of, like, you can't squirt, I feel like that's a little bit, like,

Eden: Totally

Fer: crossing. Because it's like, whether I squirt or not, you don't need to know. You know what I mean? Like it's, that's just what happens in a room between the two of us as long as, like, we're safe and we're not, you know, putting you at risk.

Then why, why do you have to kind of control to that degree? You know what I

Yeah. So at the time when he said, "I don't want you to play with Ross with other people," his reason was because I want something special between you and I, 'cause he and I went to play parties together. He and I played in [00:19:00] threesomes and foursomes, together. That was something that we did together, and he wanted something just for him and I to make him feel special. And so he said make him feel safer. And at the time I said, "Okay, I validate your feelings. I'm willing to do this, but I don't wanna do this forever. Like, I want us to get to a point where you can feel safe enough and secure enough that you're not, Ultimately, I don't want this long term, but I will agree to it for now." what, how did he respond? W- was he like,

Eden: From what

Fer: " Yeah, totally,"

Eden: like, "Okay, great. Thank you. I feel safer now. I feel special now." And then I dug a little bit deeper and asked, "What other ways can I make you feel safe and special?" As a, you know, as a partner who practices agreements and non-monogamy, I was like, "If you don't feel safe, what else can I do to meet that need for you?" and then those were other conversations that we, that we had that are not so relevant, but, And then fast-forward to a few [00:20:00] months later when he said, "I don't want you to squirt with Ross," I said, "I'm not agreeing to that. Absolutely not. it's my body and my pleasure, and if you love me, I don't really understand why you would limit the capacity of my body's ability to experience pleasure, and that's where I draw the line. I'm not gonna agree to that." And, unfortunately, that turned into, very dysregulating conversations, and ultimately, we didn't work out in the long term for various reasons. and one of them being just it seemed that his need for restrictions and security just continued to happen over time, like get stronger over time. And, you know, you can only make somebody feel so safe. There's only so much that I can do that doesn't limit or in-inhibit my... or dim my light, is what I told him essentially

Fer: Right.

wanna add, Ross? [00:21:00] I mean, yeah, that put a lot of strain on me as well. On our relationship, for sure. Because I was feeling deprioritized and unchosen from that dynamic. And it also just happened that having threesomes and having, like, co-relationships with other women with my partner was part of my dream relationship, so what I wanted to build in my non-monogamous future. So, it made me feel like I needed to continue looking for other partnership, and that this one wasn't in alignment, even though so many of the things were perfect at the time. But this other partner had seniority, dare I say, who I felt committed to, and had already, you know, been building with, and felt, in a way, obligated to appease that partner, not realizing till later down the line that that wasn't in alignment either. Ja

Eden: was a challenging period because we were [00:22:00] so close. Our chemistry was so strong. We were so in love. Everything was... felt so good. and then ultimately, I actually sold everything that I owned and went backpacking in Greece to go be with that partner. And a few months before that, he had been... He was, like, very controlling and a little mean, and I said to him, "I need you to be nicer to me or this isn't gonna work out." and so I... A few months later, I went to Greece with him, and I got to Greece, and basically he dropped the ball really hard and was very mean, domineering. And, and so I actually, even though I'd sold everything and planned to go travel with him indefinitely, I broke up with him in Greece and said goodbye to him in a train station and flew to Italy by myself to go on, like, a soul healing journey to be like, "What do I want? What do I really want? what do I need?" I called Ross. We were still partners at the time, and I said, "Hey, I don't know what this means for our [00:23:00] relationship, but I want you to know that I'm coming home for Christmas." I was anyway. "I'm gonna stay home." And I don't know where our relationship's gonna go. all I can say is that our love and our easefulness, our level of communication, was an anchor for me to transition out of a relationship that wasn't in alignment. 'Cause meanwhile, the other partner was like, "You'll never, you know, be with anybody better. It's gonna be so hard to find non-monogamous men." And then I would just think of Ross and say like, "I don't know if I'm gonna be with Ross, but it, it's reassuring to know that there's other things out there that will feel good." And so a big lesson for me was not just what does the relationship look like on the outside, but how does it feel in your body? Does it feel good? Does it feel nourishing? Is it like brightening your light or is it dimming your light? And, even if somebody is [00:24:00] poly or non-monogamous, for example, that past partner, it doesn't mean that their style of attachment, their style of communication, or their agreements or sense of safety is gonna be in alignment with your highest good, if that makes sense.

And I do wanna just say, too, that me and this partner recently, had a conversation, and I think he's a lot better now. So shout out to him. He's a good person, for sure. He's not a bad person. He was just not the right person for me. Does that make sense?

Fer: Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. It, it reminds me a little bit of my relationship with my ex, whom I act- actually, reconnected at camp, and it was, I mean, in, as friends, and it was, like, really beautiful. but I, I feel like when we were together and, one of the reasons why we broke up, I felt like he needed certain things to feel secure in our relationship that often included limiting me a little bit.

And it wasn't even that I cared too much about doing the things that he didn't want me to do, so I was like, [00:25:00] "Okay, it's fine." Like, just like you were like, "Okay, I, I can not have group sex with Ross. Like, I can do that for you if that makes you feel better." but then at some point it just felt like

And he has since taken more responsibility, but I felt like he wasn't taking responsibility for his feelings, right? So he, instead of saying "Hey, for now, can you please, not do this? But I know that this is coming from my insecurities that, you know, I'm working towards letting you do all those things that you wanna do," it was more of, um, "Well, I'm not okay with this because you or because the other person or because..."

Right? Like, kind of deflecting responsibility a little bit. so I'm curious, I mean, from that experience that you had, Eden, Because again, I do think that it's okay, and, and we'll get to talk about this, but if I understand correctly, you also have a relationship where you make concessions for the other person, right?

Like, I do think that it's okay to do that. But to what point does it [00:26:00] become control?

 when is it just, accommodating your partner a little bit, which can be okay in some situations,

 and when does it become your partner controlling you and not letting you be who you are, right? Because I also have the example of my, primary partner who did restrict me at first, but always taking responsibility for his feelings, always working with his jealousy, always making steps to give me more and more freedom.

And now I have all the freedom, right? So, so I think it's more like when is it okay to be restricted by your partner? When does it become control? How do you know that and identify that?

Eden: I think you said it perfectly when you said, um, um, something along the lines of, Did he take responsibility for his own reasonings? You know, if the reason is just because I don't want that, well, let's dig a little bit deeper. What is this need that is missing? Or what is the need that you need to feel? Is it safe? Is it secure? Is [00:27:00] it special? And how else can we meet those needs? And I think, too, it starts to become restrictive or controlling in a way if, if you don't actually wanna do it. Like, if you're sort of noticing that you're people pleasing or, you're not living in your authenticity You know, he and I were long distance, that partner, so we didn't spend actually a lot of time together. So 60% of the time we were apart, and that meant that 60% of the time I was-- felt restricted to, certain sexual experiences I wanted to have or certain, dates or play parties I wanted to go to. And I don't wanna assume that everyone who's ENM is long distance, but I think that a way that you could figure out if it's restrictive or not is to maybe put some sort of timestamp on it, like saying, "I'm willing to agree to this for a season or for a certain amount of [00:28:00] time, and in the interim, we will work on helping you feel more secure, more this, more that. But ultimately, this is what I want. This is what, as I say, is my highest good, and let's work towards it." And if they're not willing to work towards it or take accountability for their feelings or why they're, why they're doing it, then it's really just, I don't know, a cop-out, I guess, or their lack of responsibility or lack of wanting to do the work to, be better. Do you have any thoughts, Ross?

Yeah, I think that a lot of these insecurities come from the fear of being abandoned and the fear of not being chosen. And I think it's, it is valid to prioritize your partner's comfort for a time, a season, and, but like you said, like, they should know that where they wanna land with their comfort level, where they want to land with their ideal dream [00:29:00] relationship, and that should involve some self-improvement. That should involve them elevating themselves to a level where now they can have that compersion, or they can have that, give that freedom to your partner. and, you know, after a certain time of the goalpost continuously being moved, you notice that it's, it's more of a delay tactic or an excuse to push it further down the line rather than them actually doing the work to work on themselves. So I think it is appropriate sometimes to give your partner some concessions about what they're needing to create that safe container to really solidify the bond so that they know you're not gonna go anywhere, you're not gonna lose my love because I'm willing to sacrifice for a while to, to maintain this. and then it just, after a certain point, you know, you are people-pleasing and giving up what you actually want in order to stay there. So you don't wanna [00:30:00] enable him or her to, to stay in that place of limiting you. Mm. But you also wanna give them some leeway to grow.

 there is a balance. Yeah. You know, there is a balance because if you're so rigid that you won't give up anything about what you're wanting in this very moment, then you're gonna lose out on people who have a lot of potential

to grow- Mm ... into the person that they wanna be. And it's important that they want to be it. It's not just you wanting them to change. So with your partner who was well aware of, his limitations and was able to speak to them, that can be very, you know, comforting for someone who is starting to do some of the sacrificing to notice that they're, they're aware of it. And, and he was, your ex was aware of it. Mm. And that was what made me feel like we could do this for a little while, 'cause I could see that he wanted to be better at it, [00:31:00] and he could see the, hypocrisy in what he was asking for because he wasn't quite living, you know, a parallel lifestyle of sacrificing- Mm ... for her.

Fer: Which is ano- another story, but Yeah, so their actions matching their words. Yeah. Yeah, just to wrap up the topic of control and restrictions and all of that, one thing that I'm also reflecting on, something that told me that I was, dimming my light is the, the judgment that I felt like I received sometime as opposed to, with my primary partner where he had his feelings, he did restrict me, but he never criticized what I was doing.

You know what I mean? Like, I think that when it gets to, you know, in your case, like, how could you, for example, how could you want to have group sex with... I'm not saying that your partner said that, but, like, how could you want to have group sex with, with Ross when this [00:32:00] is our, our special thing? You should be

Eden: Pretty sure he said that verbatim. That's

Fer: Okay, there we go. There's judgment, right? There's judgment there. Like, you are not a good partner because you want this with someone else, right? As opposed to being like, "Listen, it's really difficult for me to think about you having group sex with Ross 'cause this is a special thing for us.

Could you, for now, not do that while we build more of a foundation?"

So Rose, you were saying that before you met Eden, or maybe even while you were dating her, because I'm, I'm curious.

 you also had other relationships, right, while you met. Sounds like you realized that you didn't have the bandwidth for that. Tell us a little bit more about that experience and how you realized of that, 'cause I find that a lot of people think that they can, and then when you have to answer four different texts from four different women every day, it becomes maybe a little bit overwhelming, you [00:33:00] know?

Ross: Yeah. It was, you know, it was a combination of a lot of things. On one hand, you know, I would announce that I'm a poly man, and before women would get attached to me, they'd be fine with that. And when they actually saw that this was happening and that they weren't going to get as much of me as they wanted, they got hurt. And so I kind of got in a pattern of even though I was communicating my desires and who I was, that I was still hurting women, through their expectations of me. And, I learned a lot from that experience because people, even though they, they tell you that they may be okay with something, they're often just either hoping you're gonna change, or they are, expecting things to just be different than-

Eden: Or maybe they think they are okay with it. Yeah. And then when it happens- Yeah ... they realize in their nervous system, oh, actually, [00:34:00] like this isn't ... I- in theory it sounds okay, but then when you feel it in your body you're like, "Whoa, this is not as easy or as, fun as I thought it would be."

it took me a while to figure that out about myself too in before, like really choosing and settling down with Eden. It was that I wasn't honoring the connections that I was making with the amount of time and energy, the good morning texts, like the emotional bandwidth that it really takes to invest in a new relationship. And so even though I wanted this, you know, multiple partners and I wanted to create that possibility, when it actually got down to people that I loved and cared about, I couldn't give them what they were wanting and needing. And it was actually diluting the energy and love that I had [00:35:00] for Eden or for whoever would be in her place. I just didn't have the bandwidth to, to hold those multiple women in relationship that would lead to where I want it to go. And you know, I was looking to start a family and, so were a lot of the women I was talking to. And in order to cultivate that, you really needed to go all in with them. I can't offer that to more than one person. Though I can love the shit out of someone without that level of commitment. And our relationship's awesome because we've together have the bandwidth to love multiple people together. Mm-hmm. And that was part of our ideal relationship style was to date people together and- And sometimes separate. Yeah. That is- ... that is a fun part of our relationship dynamic. We have, Two or three times a year we have hall [00:36:00] pass weekends where we go and we date separately and we have our own experiences what I call our lover friends, friends that are also lovers. And they, you know, they're poly too. They have other partners, they have a primary partner, they have a wife, whatever it is. And so we all have this understanding. And that's why I think it's really important to cultivate like community of ENM people and poly people because then you're sort of speaking the same language and you all have an understanding of capacity and attachment and you're able to clearly communicate this is what I'm available for and this is what I'm not available for. And they can say yes or no to that. And you can either stay friends, you can stay lovers, so there's a full spectrum of from friendship to lovers to partners that people just have to find what works for them. And yeah

Ross: Yeah. So it was a interesting dynamic to be in, like being in my, my mid-30s and wanting a family, [00:37:00] and then also wanting this lifestyle. And, I ... Yeah, I had a, a, a solidly slutty couple of seasons. I was waiting for you to, to ... Or if you weren't gonna say it, I

Fer: To come it. Ross, Ross was a slut. Um- For a long time. For a long time. But- But an ethical slut, right? We've all read the book. That's step one

Yeah.

Eden: being non-monogamous.

Fer: wanna, I do wanna get into that 'cause, I mean, you were ethical in the sense that you were upfront with the women that you were dating, but you also hinted at you maybe not, like, being the best at, communicating constantly or, like, kind of upholding, maintaining those relationships.

So I'm curious because I totally get where you're coming from, and it's interesting because I've actually dated a lot of men who, really like me because I have a primary partner, and who are, like, in a similar situation where they have all these women that wanna be with them.

Eden: right?

Fer: And I'm like, "No, I just wanna, I just wanna have sex and have fun," you [00:38:00] know?

And they're like, "You're great." And then

they, and then they love that, and

Eden: Women, not so much. Exactly.

Fer: Because women, they, they get attached, but I mean, men also get attached, but I think that women, a- as you said, like, you were in your mid-30s, I assume you were dating women in their mid-30s. They have a biological clock ticking as well if they want to have babies, right?

So I think that that really complicates, complicates things when mer- men are just like, "I'm having fun. Yes, I want a family eventually, but I got another 10 years if I want to wait that long." Whereas women are like, "I got two, and I'm really into you, and I know you're poly, but you are really, you're really into me, too," you know?

So, you know, I, I get where you were coming from, and again, I've dated a lot of men who are in kind of that category. And at the same time, I've also been and heard from a lot of women who are dating men who are poly, who then, you know, they, they're not the best at communicating or, uh, you know, [00:39:00] giving the attention and care to the relationship that it deserves, even if you don't want them to become your husband and, and have babies with them.

But I've, I've dated men that, you know, when they start dating someone else or whatever, they just stop answering my texts and I feel like we need, and I think that's part of the work that you do, but I think that we need to teach, I mean, both men and women, how to better communicate even when you don't want a serious, committed relationship, and how can you maintain even a friendship and communicate expectations well.

Like, put the care in that relationship in whatever shape or form it is,

a lot of people are missing that intentionality in the way that they relate. so anyhow, what was your journey with that, Ross, and, how did you learn to, manage those relationships or ultimately decided to end them and, and, and become more m- more monogamish, let's say, with Eden?

Eden: Can I chime in? Go ahead, babe. So at the [00:40:00] time when I, got back from Greece and we were exploring our relationship again, I would say that his sluttiness was a little dysregulating for me, and I think that Vee had mentioned this in a, in a podcast interview with you or another one that she did with Girls Gone Deep saying, people playing or having experiences outside of the relationship are okay if that's what you agree with, but maybe it's... it, it was the frequency of it and the amount of times that my nervous system didn't really have the capacity to hold it or, or to process it in between the frequency of those dates or those, sexual experiences. You know, that's why we teach a lot of this ENM through a nervous system lens, like somatic healing. Where is your body at? What is it telling you? How does it feel? How can you minimize triggers or... without making them go away, but how can we sort of rewire, reprogram our nervous system into a sense of safety? And while I teach [00:41:00] this stuff, even within that season of his life, I still felt pretty dysregulated by, how much was happening outside of our dynamic that I basically had to say, like, "Hey, listen, I love you. I want you to feel authentic. I want you to be yourself, but how can we do it in a way that, doesn't... I, I don't, I don't have the capacity for this amount of,

Fer: Yeah, that gives me more of a break in between so that I can do my nervous system regulation, I can reconnect with you, kind of recover myself from it, and then we can, you can do it again, right? Which goes back to our earlier conversation of like when is it control and when is it, like, truly coming from a place of like, "Hey, I'm doing the work.

I'm regulating my s- my nervous system, and I want you to eventually maybe have the freedom to, you know, fuck as much as you want. But right now, it's a little difficult for me. Like, can you slow down? Can you give

my window of tolerance is what we would call it. Your window of tolerance in the nervous system is like how much you can take. Like, we teach in the temple that your comfort zone expansion happens [00:42:00] outside of your comfort zone, but not when you're pushed or, it's multiple times, like outside of it again and again and again. It's a slow, gradual outside of your comfort zone that happens with growth. and so just adjusting that window of tolerance without forcing it, as you were saying. Did you wanna add anything? Yeah. Let me share about my experience. Sure. Moving on to the next quest- I'm just kidding.

Ross: Uh, yeah. Eden was very, um... She celebrated my connections with other people, I would say, until our level of connection rose to a certain level and commitment. yeah, the thing that I was encountering was that I, you know, like I said, I was looking for a life partner. and in my earlier experiences with poly, I would e-encounter a woman who was, like, almost that person. Almost. Like, lovely, amazing [00:43:00] experience with this person, but something was off and it wasn't gonna be, you know, the mother of my children. So, in the beginning of my poly journey, it was like I would still accept that woman, and we would still have amazing experiences together, and I wasn't so sure that she wasn't the person for me, and I was trying to see if it would grow into something and expand into that, and it just never did. And, you know, in a monogamous container, you're kinda need to be very upfront with that and, and shut it down, and it's time to move on and find someone else. But in a poly container, you know, you have the potential to enjoy that almost experience of a almost, your almost forever person, and 'cause they're still fucking lovely, amazing people. And I was, you know, staying in that,  my, in my growth period of poly, I was staying in that a little too long, and that was hurtful to the women that I was, [00:44:00] that I was dealing with. And it wasn't level of a fuckboy, and I was being very upfront about what I was available for. and they would say that they're also available for that. But I had to develop this other sense of starting to make decisions that are in both of our self-interests, including, shutting things down when they were just not enough, but still amazing. And so that was something that I had to learn how to, to cultivate. And, and for me, what, was very challenging for women was I have such a powerful capacity for loving, especially when I'm f- face to face with someone and it is very authentic and real, and then they feel the opposite of that or they feel, you know, the, the bottom drop out when I'm no longer face to face with them. So, um, you know, it was, it was a lot of not doing the good [00:45:00] morning texts and, and, spending, you know, multiple days without checking in with them that these, these women wanted. And, it was challenging because they wouldn't-- they didn't know exactly what they wanted, and it was kind of up to both of us to figure that out. And, They, they could just feel the drop-off from me when, uh, we were no longer, you know- Although it wasn't intentional. No. It's kinda like a Shabari scene when you get a drop after ... When you've had a deeply intimate experience with somebody, if you don't feel like they're checking in on you or you're getting the aftercare, then you feel, like Ross said, dropped. Although everything was communicated upfront, and everybody's intentions and integrity is clear, one of the things Ross teaches is, like, attunement is what we call it. Are you feeling attuned to this person's energy, to their needs? And at times, there's even been times where Ross has been seeing someone or dating them, and he'll even say no for them because he can just sense that [00:46:00] maybe It might hurt them in the long term. Or they say, something to indicate what their real needs are. And You have to be very observant to, to hear that sometimes when they tell you, "Oh, I'm looking, you know, I'm looking for a husband. I'm looking to have a family. But I'm en- you know, I'm enjoying this." And, you know, at a certain point of enjoying this, and it goes on long enough, you realize the dissonance of it's not what you're wanting and needing. It was fun, but now it's tugging at your heartstrings in a way that's not comfortable. And I, I started to recognize that I needed to arrive there earlier with people and give them what they're needing instead of what they're just wanting. And I think this applies to all poly dynamics, not just people looking for families. But maybe there's something that you want or need in your relationship, and being upfront about that in a way that, you guys, these two people are connecting and they're not, you know, wasting each other's times. If you're both clear and upfront about what [00:47:00] you're needing or desiring, then it's a lot easier to not get hurt, no matter if that's wanting start a family or whatever it might be.

Fer: Yeah, I think, Ross, you were hinting at something that I also learned at some point, which is that sometimes you kind of have to sense what they actually want and need from how they are acting and not so much from what they're telling you, right? And I've also been in a situation where I was dating someone who said, "Yeah, I'm totally okay with you having a boyfriend.

 you know, I'm available for this," but I could tell that he was craving, you know, a different type of relationship with me or that he was, even getting a little bit jealous of my primary partner so I had to break the relationship and be like, I could go on. We could be friends with benefits forever, but I'm sensing you want more of a romantic connection," and that made me feel uncomfortable 'cause I felt like we weren't aligned anymore.

So I broke [00:48:00] up with that person. But it's kind of a weird thing to do because on paper, everyone's cool with everything. But what I've also heard from a lot of women is, you know, they say something but act a different way, right? So I, I know that you were saying, "I'm not available for, you know, marriage and kids with you," but you were still trying to send the morning texts and the goodnight texts.

You know what I mean? And, and some people read that as, we're together, he's acting like he does want this, but he says he doesn't want it. Or the other way around,you know?

Ross: Yeah, yeah. I had to certainly grow through, a desire to be, to people please and, and to tell people what they wanted to hear. and you know, that was indicative of my, like, early adulthood and, slight being out of integrity in that way is, like, showing people the affection that is very natural and authentic for me. But, something that, one of our mentors, his name's Reid Mihalko, I don't know if [00:49:00] you, if you know him. But he calls it being a, a sea lion, and a sea lion is people like us who can dive really deep down with someone and go into the depths with them. Of intimacy, of connection, of heart opening, feeling. That's our tantra practices that come into play, is deeply, you know, energetic and loving and- Like, we can go so deep. I can go so deep with someone, very authentically enjoying the moment and, and loving them in that moment, and then when the experience is over, you come up- The sea lion comes off and swims away ... you come up and swim away, and you have another, experience, or you're, you're off to something else. And that can be very harmful for people who aren't a- Sea lions ... a sea lion. You know, they're going to get the bends from doing that and going down to the depths with you and then going back up, and that's something for them. They're confused, they're [00:50:00] said this, but I felt this," or, told me you didn't want this, then why did you make love to me like that?" You know?

Fer: Yeah, and I think that, you know, I touched on, sometimes you kind of have to sense what the other person wants, and if it's different, you have to break up a little bit, like, for them.

 but there's also the other person of, you know,maybe I'm getting a little bit attached, and maybe I want more, and I know this person is poly or not available for a primary relationship with me. And I think that it's also very difficult for, like, someone in that position to say, "Listen, we don't want the same things.

Let's break up." But I think it's important to do that for yourself. Because otherwise, you might think that you are available for a primary relationship with someone else, that you might even be dating, but energetically, if your heart is with someone whom you wish was your primary, I think that that makes it really hard for you to actually find that person.

And sometimes you have to make that really difficult decision of, like, "This person [00:51:00] is perfect except for the fact that they don't want this with me, and me staying in this relationship is preventing me from finding someone that does want it with me because I keep wishing that it was him or her," you

Ross: Yeah. That's exactly what happened with us. Yeah. And as I progressed in my spiritual journey, I started to feel those energetic hooks in, in me and my energy more and more. So it was the, the feeling of someone wanting more from me than I was available for, even though I was in integrity in sharing what I'm available for, t- to have them and their hooks into my energy, I started to notice it more and more, and it was sapping my energy in ways. So- Or distracting you from your goals. Yeah, I did have to

Fer: Yeah, and distracting you from me.

Eden: And I- Well, in the first year I didn't want kids, and that was the big thing that I was out of alignment with us. So Ross was like, "All right. Mm-hmm. I'm gonna go sw- I'm gonna dive really deep with you, and we're together and I'm gonna swim off and do my own [00:52:00] thing." And I was like, "Cool, I'm swimming off and doing my own thing too," and I didn't want children. And then something shifted in me, and then we realized we wanted the same things and had the same goals and backgrounds and teachings, and we were like, "Wow, this is perfect."

Fer: so maybe let's go back to that. So okay, so Eden, you were with this partner, you ended up

breaking

Eden: I was traveling the world too. I

Fer: you were traveling the world. you came back, and Ross was there, and he was, sounds like dating someone, being a slut, dating a bunch of other people. You were like, "Actually, this is, like, too much for my nervous system.

Can you slow down?" And what happened from there? When did you realize you wanted kids? When did you decide to, I mean, quote unquote, "close" the relationship in the sense that, you know, you only played together except for your hall passes, right? Which is very different from Ross being a poly man with a bunch of different connections, right?

So how, how did that happen?

Eden: I got back, we went to a tantra festival in Tulum. Again, tons of [00:53:00] messages about us being together, and then we got back, and he was there on dates with other people. And then, then I said, "Actually, I think we should take six weeks to not see each other and be celibate because I want you to live your best life and continue doing what you're doing. It's too much for me right now, so I'm actually gonna take a step back from this relationship and regulate myself after that breakup,

Fer: I came back from Europe, I was like, "I think I'm, I'm starting to think I want kids." And we both agreed actually to take six weeks to be celibate and take time apart. And in that time apart, I got really clear on what I wanted, and I, you know, did some healing from the last breakup. I wrote down in my journal verbatim like, "This is what I want. This is what I need. This is how I wanna feel." Almost like manifesting it, dare I say. and then Ross was also like, I'm gonna be celibate. I'm gonna, you know, work on my, my work and my program that he built," his men's program he built during our [00:54:00] what we called creation hibernation.

Eden: Yeah. It was,

Also, it came to a peak of, things being out of alignment for me in, in my lifestyle, so I needed to slow down and, and focus on my work, and, I needed to deescalate with all of my connections at the time. And, I-- they all appreciated it so much actually. I think, We're still friends with- Yeah, we're all still friends. Yeah. They all appreciated the honesty and that, they could all tell they weren't being fully chosen, finally from me saying, "Yeah, I'm gonna take a break from dating for a while." It was the perfect time for both of us to, to take a break from that. And, one of the things that we did during that time, we weren't, like, planning to get back together, you know, explicitly, but we both decided to take the month to write down our ideal relationship agreements and what it would look like, [00:55:00] and without talking to each other about that. And so we both spent quite a bit of time thinking about that, journaling and writing about what the ideal person was, and I still thought that she wasn't really gonna be, you know, a mother. I, I thought that she might've been confused about it, and so I wanted to, you know... It was really just creating the ideal relationship for me. And then when we came back together and we shared our lists with each other, they were identical. They were identical lists. And, things that, you know, we haven't been finding elsewhere for our whole life. And so we

Fer: Gi- give us like one or two points on the list real quick

Eden: Sure. Well, at that point, I had been asking the universe for a partner that I could have a child with, that we could also have lots of lovers together and threesomes together and play together, and that was something [00:56:00] that my previous partners had said yes to and then just never actually followed

Fer: And by that, this point had you guys played together finally or not

because of the Yeah, we did ... Yeah, yeah, we had, we had just started to because, um, her partner w- I broke a- Dropped the ball so- So hard ... so bad that we were able to do that. I got home and I was like, "Let's fucking go."

Wait, 'cause your partner dropped off the... Like, when you... Oh, when you broke up.

Eden: Yeah, I broke up with him in October in Greece, and then I flew back in December, And then in January, we met a woman on New Year's Eve who we're still partners with to this day. That was a year and a half ago now. She's still one of our lovers and our partners. And then we played with our mutual friend who is also now our long-term partner and lover of a year and a half. as well as we have another lover in Austin. so we have, like, three partners right now outside of our relationship who we love very dearly [00:57:00] and share dearly, Yeah. And we wanted, we both wanted this Hall Pass weekend thing as well. Yeah, we wrote in there, we wanna play with other people, we wanna have outside connections, but it's not all of the time that my nervous system doesn't have time to recover or- Same ... yeah. So it's, like, every so often, few times a year, For example, last one I went to a play party without Ross, 'cause he had a, a work obligation, a client obligation. And so I was there in New York and had various experiences that Ross- Yeah ... was like, "Okay." And he had experiences too while we were apart, and we're both just like, you know, we know... That's one of our agreements, is that we sign off on and a- and approve of the person that we play with. Or that they, we know that they have an understanding, or we're all friends. And that makes it feel really good in the agreements, is if, you know, there's some communication or connection between the metamours, [00:58:00] where they're on a friendly terms. You feel a lot safer when, if the person is anonymous or you've not, you don't know anything about them. I think for me personally, it feels a lot sweeter and safer when there's some sort of rapport or sense of safety and respect between everybody involved. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And we don't do anonymous. In fact, we, we like to have everything out on the table. one of the most stressful things for me in life, really, is to be unsure of what's going on. To, like, have to guess. And let the theater of your mind's imagination run wild when it's really not actually what's happening.

Fer: So the reason why, just kind of going back to, okay, you were both poly, and then you got together, you had disagreements, and it turns out that you both wanted to have experiences together but also have some level of separateness, but not too much because of the nervous system,

Eden: capacity

Fer: capacity. Which again, I [00:59:00] really appreciate that because it's becoming really honest, right?

Instead of being like, "Oh, we are, you know, the tantra, community leaders. Like, we should be okay with being poly and..." Right? You're like, "No, no, no, it's difficult for us when our partner, you

Eden: It's not easy

Fer: on a trip with someone else. So we're only gonna do it two or three times a year because that's as much as our nervous system can handle."

I really appreciate that honesty, and I encourage listeners to also, again, play a little bit more in that in-between space as opposed to, like, it's either you can do everything or you can do nothing, right?

Eden: the story sounds a little bit like, okay, it was a little rocky at first, then we got together and everything has been, you know, rainbows and flowers and beautiful threesomes. So is there, is there anything that you have, struggled with, since you became primaries and decided on this dynamic?

Fer: Yeah, we certainly had our, our struggles. I, I think that I [01:00:00] held a irrational fear that, the moment that Eden had sex with a man and I knew about it, I was gonna lose my attraction to her. And I feared that. That's a controversial statement. Yeah. But go ahead, say it. I guess it is. But that was the fear that I was experiencing about

You were gonna, you were gonna lose your attraction to her because you were gonna see her as a dirty slut

Ross:  yeah, this is like where it comes- The programming or something ... this is where the programming comes in, where I know that logically that's not true. I know logically, but from having the unknown of not having experienced that with her, these were the things running through my head. And

Fer: thank you so much for speaking up about that, because I feel like a lot of men feel that way, again, because of our social programming. And instead of being truthful about that, they might [01:01:00] actually slut-shame their partner, you know?

Eden: Mm. Yeah Which he didn't do, let's make that clear. No, like- He was very supportive. There's, there's no universe where I could slut-shame her and that, and be in integrity Without being a hypocrite. Yeah, so that was, that was a challenge for me, but I did notice it got easier and easier. The more processing time that I gave myself to work through things in my head and still ... And, and her keep coming back to me and, and feeling that security coming back over and over again was, was very, was very helpful for me. I think everything happened just the way it was supposed to. What was- Yeah ... challenging for you? What was challenging for me? I think there can be times where you're in a relationship and one person is maybe a little more, I don't wanna say farther along, but more experienced in their compersion or has a little bit [01:02:00] more, ... Yeah, a little more ease or, lack of attachment. And by that I just mean, you know, if Ross went and had sex with somebody else, I was pretty much like, okay, cool." but because he didn't really f- have that experience from me as much, and then it was challenging for him. And then I was like, "What do you mean? It's chill." And then I got a little impatient ... I got a little activated by that, by feeling like we weren't equal in our compersion or, or whatever

Fer: Yeah, by the way, just for people who might not know what compersion is, it's when you experience joy from your partner's joy connecting with someone

Eden: Yeah, it's like the opposite of jealousy where you're like, "Fuck yes, go get fucked." Like, yeah, I mean, maybe not that... Sorry, that was fucked, rad. But

Fer: no, it's okay. You know, it's interesting 'cause people say that, but I've actually heard and I agree with it not really being the opposite of jealousy because you can feel jealous and compersive at the same time. I don't know if you've experienced [01:03:00] that, uh, that you're like, "Oh, I feel a little bit jealous, but I'm also really happy for my partner to go and have a good time with someone else," you know?

Eden: Yeah. and so, yeah, maybe just learning like patience and emotional regulation tools and both, like, if you're not agreeing or you're both feeling activated or jealous to like, pause and practice like remembering that you're on a team together and that you're not enemies. Like it's, it's me and him against the, the problem or the disagreement, not us against each other, and needing to always come back together even if maybe it... You know, like you said, it gets easier every time. Maybe at this point it's easier for me, or it was, and just having patience for your partner if maybe you're not at the exact same level of compersion or emotional regulation in the moment, if that makes sense.

Fer: I like that you brought that up because it's so common, right? And, it sounds to me like what you're saying is because I was [01:04:00] having an easier time and maybe even granting a little bit more freedom or whatever when Roz would be a little grumpy after I came back from an experience

Or, like, if I was talking to someone or whatever, I'd be like, "But, like, why can you not be chill like me?" You

Eden: Yeah, exactly.

Fer: for me?" Right? And, and yeah, so I like that of, like, being a little, having a little bit more patience and realizing that everyone's process is different, you

Eden: Yeah, totally

Fer: Okay, awesome. Well, thank you for sharing that. so we're coming, up on time here, so just one last question before we wrap up. Well, actually, two. First of all, where can people find you and, you know, come to your events and connect with you?

 if people do wanna find out more about tantra, the types of events that you do and, and your community, where can they find you?

Eden: Okay, we have so many. so the, the big project that we... that's kind of the culmination of [01:05:00] all of our work right now is called Sacred Society, which is a ethically non-monogamous sacred sexuality community that combines my men's work and my men's only spaces, which is called Embodimen, and- My Temple of Eden, as well as other practitioners and educators, sex educators around the world. We pretty much have created, like, an ecosystem of people to go learn about, like, jealousy or compersion or sex ed or, or anything, and pretty much have a support system for them to figure out what works for them, figure out, like... go from white belt to blue belt to brown belt in ENM or, or sex or intimacy or Tantra. Everyone is vetted to make sure that they're not takers and that they're giving into the space, into the community, and that's at sacrendsocietyproject.com. Mm-hmm. We also have a retreat in Medellín, Colombia coming up next March, which will [01:06:00] be, exploring that community with sacred sexuality containers and play parties and Tantra and embodiment and dance and- Mm. That's gonna be so fun. And then we also host Tantra temple parties, which are similar to play parties, I think I said earlier. But they start with, like, connection games, nervous system regulation, skill building, and how to initiate and flirt, how to reject and redirect, how to own your yes and your no. And then people can practice those in real times in our play parties. And then we coach couples as well. Yes. So, all of our events are at tantraphilly.com, all over the world. It's called Tantra Philly, but we've expanded all over the world. And then we also have couples coaching for ENM couples, ENM folks at openanddevoted.com.

So that's what we got. yeah, quite a bit. I'll put all of those links in the show notes.

Fer: and if they want support with this, they could DM us on Instagram @embodiedwitheden.

Yes, of [01:07:00] course. Of course.

Eden: Last question,

Fer: what would you tell to a polycurious person? So just, like, final words of wisdom, or what do you wish you knew maybe when you guys met and were in this kind of rollercoaster of relationships and emotions, and what is something that you wish that you knew then?

Eden: It's okay to feel uncomfortable for a little bit. You can allow yourself to have moments of discomfort and moments of questioning yourself, and it's very natural, and it gets easier with each time that you allow yourself to sit in that discomfort for a little bit, you know, without torturing yourself over and over again. Are you noticing that it's getting a little easier each time? And then if the answer is yes, then you're on the right track

Fer: I love that

Eden: And similarly, I agree. There is a, there is a way, like your workshop, Non-Monogamy Without the Mess. It is possible at the beginning when you're new to feel messy, to feel stressful, to feel overwhelming, and that's totally normal. [01:08:00] But with the right tools and practices and support and communities, there's a way to do it that it can be really transformative to be poly and non-monogamous. if you have those skills, for us or for our community, we've noticed that it opens your heart to more love and capacity for more love. It doesn't take away your love for your partner or your partners, but it can actually show you the depths of how deep your love can go- Mm-hmm ... if you do it from a place of integrity, attunement, honesty, communication, regulation, and all the things that can make it really nourishing instead of messy. Sexy. And sexy and playful.

Fer: Yes, amazing. Well, thank you so much for sharing so much wisdom today, and yeah, for sharing this Friday afternoon with me and divulging all of your, intimate details and, and, and, lessons learned along the way. So thank you so much.

Eden: Thank you Thank you, [01:09:00] Fernanda

Speaker 6: If you have found Polycurious helpful in any way, please take a minute to give us a five-star review or just share this episode with someone you think might benefit from it. And if you're hungry for more, you can access bonus content on Spotify or Patreon, including our monthly online conversations, solo episodes, and content from our guests that you won't hear in the regular show.

Here is a snippet of the bonus content from today's episode.

Eden:  we actually have a open phone policy as well. Really controversial. I know some people might not like that, but... But it makes us feel good that there's nothing to hide, And I feel like if you have nothing to hide, then it, there's only to be gained from that experience.

Fer: I understand the feeling of like, okay, there's nothing to hide. That creates, an environment of trust.

But at the same time, there are [01:10:00] also certain conversations that, not because your partner is doing anything wrong, but it might be a little difficult to see.

So, how does that work with you guys?

Speaker 6: If you want to hear the rest, you can access all bonus content on Spotify by clicking the lock symbol next to the extra episodes, or you can head on to Patreon through the link in the episode description. Thank you all so much for listening and your support