Molly: What's shaking people up with, with my book? It's not that non-monogamy is, is new. It's that someone who lives within these constructs of being a wife and a mother is doing something so unconventional and that kind of flies in the face of the stereotypes we have. It's a widening of our understanding of, uh, women need to be their full selves. This doesn't serve anyone if women don't live out loud.

F: Hi everyone. Welcome to Polycurious. This is Fer, and today I bring you the last episode of the Poly Parents miniseries. If you haven't listened to the rest of the episodes and this is a topic that you think you might be interested in, there's four more episodes waiting for you. And today my guest is someone that you might have heard about because of her, um, amazing New York Times bestselling book: "More: A Memoir of Open Marriage." Her name is Molly Roden Winter and she is just incredible. I absolutely love her book. In it, she talks about her experience being a mother, her experience opening up, um, her long term marriage. And even though, as you probably know, I don't have kids yet and my relationship has definitely not lasted as long as hers, I felt so identified with what she shared because she touched on a lot of feelings and experiences that people going through non-monogamy go through, like infatuation, like jealousy, shame. But most importantly, I think her book was really about personal growth. And to me, that's one of the reasons that makes non-monogamy so appealing because you really get to examine yourself, you really get to grow a lot. And the way she described her experience was just so open and so raw and so detailed that you really just felt like you were right there with her. And she made a lot of mistakes along the way, but ultimately she found a type of non-monogamy that works for her. And years later, she's still happily non- monogamous. So today we talk about a lot of the lessons that she's learned throughout the year, especially when it comes to being a mother and what that meant for her and her privacy. And hopefully hearing her experience can make you reflect on yours and what works for you and what doesn't work for you. If you want to check out her book, of course you will find that link in the show notes. Again, highly, highly recommended. So before we go into today's conversation, I just wanted to remind you that if you haven't subscribed to the podcast, this is a great opportunity to do it because as I mentioned, this is the last episode of the Poly Parents miniseries. I'm not sure when the next episode will come out, but it'll probably be a little while. And if you are not subscribed, you won't get notified when that episode drops. And while you're at it, if the podcast has been helpful to you and you want to help other people as well, make sure just to take two seconds to rate the podcast. And if you want to give us a review, even better.

Also, I wanted to ask, are you non-monogamous and your partner monogamous or the other way around? Because if so, I would love to talk to you. I am in one of those such mono-open relationships and I know they're not super common and yet I think there's a lot of people who need the validation and the resources from other people sharing their experiences with this type of relationship structure because it truly can work. So likely my next project will be a, uh, mono-open or Mono-Poly miniseries. So if you are one of them or you know someone who is, please reach out to me and we can have a quick chat. You can either just send me a message on Instagram @PolycuriousPodcast or write me an email polycuriouspodcast@gmail.com

Okay, guys, I cannot wait for you to listen to this conversation. Here is my interview with the amazing Molly Roder Winter.

So Molly, welcome to Polycurious. You have no idea how excited I am because I read your book. I think I finished it in like a week or something like a month ago. And I've just been saving the questions for this moment. So Molly, for those of you who haven't read your book, which should definitely go out and do so, and the link will be in the show notes, uh, can you just tell us a little bit about, uh, what it is about and how you came to write it?

M: Sure. So the book basically tells the story of my first 10 years of opening my marriage. So I was married in 1999 and we had two kids, uh, in the early 2000s. Um, and we opened our marriage in about 2008. So it tells the story from 2008 to 2018. Um, and I wrote the book in part because I was feeling like I wasn't seeing a lot of stories like mine. I wasn't seeing, um, the stories of mothers in particular. And I also knew that my own personal history gave my, gave my story a little more gravitas because my parents also had an open marriage. Um, spoiler alert. But it's, it's, uh, something that I wove into my own telling of open marriage because, um, although my mother never told me that she had an open marriage, when I was 28, my aunt, her older sister, spilled the beans. Um, so as I was opening my marriage, I kind of started asking my mother more questions about her own experience. So her story gets woven into mine as well.

F: Yeah. First of all, I just want to say I'm so happy that someone's speaking up about this. I'm not a mother yet, but it's just something that I feel like a lot of people need to hear. What, uh, being open and, um, being a mother and kind of having an identity as a wife and a mother and also an identity as a woman with a, uh, sexuality and all of that. And, um, it was so great to see that, that the conversation is being opened up, uh, by you. I got a couple of people sending me links. I know that you've been in the New York Times. I, uh, mean, you've made the rounds. So I just want to say thank you for being brave to put your story out there.

M: Well, thank you. I do feel like it's because my children are older also. They're 19 and almost 22 now. Um, for one, I have a perspective that you don't hear a lot of. You know, I know you're going to be interviewing Abbey and Liam, for example, who have, I think a 5 year old or people who are, um, earlier in the parenting journey. So I think on the one hand I was. I felt like it was important for somebody who's kind of on the other side of parenting. Like, my kids are grown now. And also because of that, I don't have the same kind of concerns about how my being out as open might. stigmatize them or affect them, because there is some stigma. Not so much in Brooklyn, where I live. Um, but I know for a lot of people it's a real concern to have to put yourself out there. So I thought, if I can't do it, I don't know who can do it. So I felt like I don't mind being tapped, let's put it that way.

F: That's great. And I, um, was glad to hear that. Sounds like your kids are taking it well. I am curious though. Did they read the book?

M: My older son read the book, the one who's, you know, he read it before it came out, so last, um, summer. Uh, and my younger son does not want to read the book. And I am totally for that. They're just, they're very different people too. Like everybody, you know, and one's a little older, a little more mature, maybe able to handle, um, the concept of having a mother who is a sexual being. But I. He also told me that he skipped over, he called it the nitty gritty parts. He was like, I kind of read through those parts pretty fast. Um, which is just fine. But, uh, yeah, he was. He wanted to read it, so I was like, sure, go for it.

F: Yeah. I do wonder because, for example, my mom knows about the podcast. A lot of people on my mom's side of the family know, but most of them don't speak English. And lately I've been, like, toying with the idea of sharing it with my dad, but I know he does speak English. Yeah. So, like, I'm like, well, maybe I could tell him not to listen to the podcast and just tell him that I have it because it's becoming more of part, ah, of my life, of my career. And I haven't done it because I'm not sure if he's going to listen to it even if I tell him not to or not.

M: Right.

F: Um, so, yeah, it can be a little awkward to have that kind of those conversations about sexuality with your, you know, parents, with your kids.

M: Well, I had to have the same conversation with my parents also, so. But my parents are in the book. And so I didn't really want to have them edit it or censor me in any way, so I also didn't give it to them to read until the galleys were out. And, um, it's funny, my father had a very similar reaction as my son and said he. He called it the steamy part, though. He said he skipped over the steamy parts. Um, so. And meanwhile, my mother is reading it now, I think for the third time, because she's just trying to really, you know, wants to take it in and really understand it, um, from my perspective, which I think is really lovely. But, yeah, I give my dad and my son credit for giving it a whirl. And I kind of appreciate that they skipped, uh, over some of the sexier scenes just because it's not something they want to have in their head.

F: Yeah. And I'm glad there's an openness on your side to be like: "Okay, I'm going to write this. And whether they read it or not, there it is." Because you get very. And, um, that's one of the things that I enjoyed the most about your book, that I could really see myself there, even though I don't. Again, I don't have kids, but you know, on, for example, on those awkward dates that one might have or on, you know, on the dating apps. And how one can start getting a little bit too obsessed with them.

M & F: Right.

F: Just a lot of, like, juicy details. Steamy, uh, details. As they said that, I was like: "Oh, I feel like I've been there. Like, both the sexual, but also kind of their raw feelings."

M: Yeah.

F: And things like that. Um, so, again, I'm so glad that you put it out there, but I'm curious what kind of conversations besides, you know, I skipped the steamy details.

M: Yeah. Yeah.

F: Uh, what kind of conversations have you had with your. With your sons and with your parents since. Since the book came out and after they read it?

M: Yeah. Well, I think, um, they've been so supportive and, um, really cheering me on. I think. I think they both had a fair amount of anxiety before the book came out because it was outing them as well. They had kept this information. They never intended me to find out. It was my aunt who told, um, and they had to, you know, tell my sister, tell my nephews. I wanted them to have those conversations before the book came out. And to their credit, they were really game to do all that.

When I first had the idea to write the book, I sat them down and said, you know, I feel really strongly about using your real names and my name and Stuart's name, because I feel like we have something valuable to share and fictionalizing it or using a pen name isn't the message I want to send. I don't want there to be shame or hiding, uh, here. I want to really own this and represent it as best I can. Um, and again, they were very supportive and also anxious. Um, so I think even though there has been some of that kind of, ah, you know, negative or, um, I think, you know, kind of shoddy portrayals of me or the book, I don't pay much attention to it. And there's been enough positivity around it that I think it's made my parents relax quite a bit. Um, when it comes to my children, I changed my children's names in the book, and, um, I didn't want to write it, um, until they both knew about the open marriage. And so once that conversation happened, then I felt a lot more comfortable with writing my story. And I understand that it's not the most comfortable thing for my kids, but at the same time, they're adults now. The book came out when my youngest was already 19.

And I think at a certain point, as a mother, you have to really reclaim your life for yourself. And you can't. It can't be, um, the expectation that women are going to give themselves up to motherhood forever. There are a few years, yes, when there is a lot of sacrifice, but you don't need to give up your whole self until your child is 18, because if you do that there, there's not going to be much of a self left to come back to. And that's not good for your kids either. Once they're gone, they don't want to be worried about you pining away for them or feeling like you're incomplete because they left home. They're supposed to leave home. They're supposed to do their own thing. And I want to have an authentic relationship with them. And I feel really good about the relationship I have with my kids. We have a great relationship, and they would agree. They tell me that. So hopefully I don't. I don't beat that answer out of them. But I am trying to kind of keep them out of the press and the discussion. And so far, so good, because they're off living their own lives.

F: That's great. I know you just mentioned you want to keep them off the discussion, but, uh, if you don't mind me asking for parents out there who might be like: "Okay, I'm nervous about telling my kids about this." What would you advise them? Because, um, and, I mean, you're welcome to share, if you'd like, the story of how they found out. And, you know, it wasn't because you. You want to tell them.

M: No, I didn't.

F: But if you had looked, looked back, uh, would you have done things differently?

M: Well, I didn't do things very gracefully, but it was also because there weren't a lot of models out there for me, including my own parents. My parents did not talk to me about their marriage or about sex at all. Um, I had to have the conversation with my mother when, uh, and I waited a year until my. After my aunt told me a year later, I brought it up with my mother because I was so nervous about talking to her about it. We didn't have that kind of relationship that we talked about sex. So, um, it was hard for me, and I had to kind of figure out how to do it with my own children, how to have these conversations. When I first got the idea to write the book, it was April 2019, and my youngest still didn't know. Um, and I was still figuring out how to talk about it. Um, they are different kids, and I didn't want to rock the boat with him. Um, but Then he found out in a very similar way to the way my older one found out, which is how the book opens in the prologue. Um, basically again, finding something on my husband's social media. I don't know that I would have done it differently necessarily because in the early years of our opening, our marriage, it was pretty messy. It's not like, you know, I tried to tell the story very truthfully, but the first, you know, six, seven years, I wasn't necessarily proud of how I was behaving. I felt like I was kind of having an adolescence of sorts. I never had the dating or sexual experimentation that a lot of people have when they're, you know, teenagers are in their 20s. I basically had one boyfriend all through college and then met my husband. And so it's part of why I felt like it was important for me to have more experiences, uh, after I got married, um, because I had never done that and I didn't really know my sexual self very well. So I don't think I was really in a place where I could have talked about it the way I can talk about it now. So I don't think it would have, you know, sitting down an eight year old and being like, so mommy has special friend. I mean, I don't think it would have come out very well.

So I think it's okay that it happened the way it happened. Um, but I do think if you, if you can take advantage, if you are opening your relationship now and you can take advantage of the resources that are out there or just the fact that it's part of the conversation, um. If you can do that and you can talk to your kids about, um, having a committed relationship that also includes loving other people, I think it's possible to do that. And I kind of want to pass the baton to the next generation to figure out how to do it better than I did it. I, um, wanted to share my story. Not just as like a cautionary tale because I think it all worked out. Um, but it's not. I very specifically did not write a to do manual or a manifesto or anything like that. I just shared my story as honestly as I could. And part of my story is that yes, my kids found out when they were young teenagers and now it's benefited our relationship. So, um, I'm glad that I can share my full self with them now.

And that I can be the most authentic person I can be. I think that is, makes me a much better mother than to be repressed or in like hiding parts of myself with shame. I don't think that would make me a better mother at all.

F: Yeah, yeah, that's right. I was talking about that with Abbey and Liam. I know their kid is only like six or something.

M: Yeah.

F: But, you know, they haven't had that conversation of like: "Mommy has special friends."

M: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

F: Um, but, you know, they know that eventually their kid will find out also because of their media presence. Right. And I think, uh, that's the case for you too. And I asked them, you know, do you think there's gonna be some backlash, like some comments at school of kids making fun of them or things like that? And they said: "Yeah, there might be some, but that's the price that you have to pay for them doing your life the way you want to do it and being truthful about it and raising your kids," um, with this mindset of, like, love is infinite and, you know, all these things that it's kind of like a trade off in a way. So what you're saying is now, you know, maybe my kids. And I don't know if your kids have had any sort of, um, you know, nasty comments from the Internet or backlash from their friends or whatever, but even if they did, if that's what you. What they have to go through to then have a much closer relationship with their mother.

M: Yeah.

F: And a much more authentic relationship with their mother, maybe it's worth it.

M: Yeah. And I feel like, um, I tried to be discreet for that, for their sake during their teen years. I think that it's fine for me to also have some things that were private. And part of the conversation I had with my oldest son, which I write about in the book, is the idea that, yeah, I do have a right to privacy. And so there were times when he was anxious about what I was doing and was asking me lots of questions. And he actually asked me to lie to him when I had a date. And I don't think that was necessarily bad. Like, even now, like, pot is legal. Right. I smoke pot sometimes, but I don't broadcast it too much to my kids because it's kind of like not only.

F: Only now, only in today's podcast.

M: Right, right, right, right. They I mean, they probably have a sense, but it's like, I don't, um. It's also kind of my business, you know, and so I also, because they're adults, I don't, like, go through their phone or. I don't. I don't snoop around their room. It's like. It's also just kind of like the risk expect you afford an adult. Um, and I felt like I've been able to for better. You know, I don't know if I have anything to do it do with it necessarily. But my kids are both really trustworthy, cool, sweet, interesting people. And, um, I feel like in some ways the best thing I can do as a parent is like, I love them unconditionally. I'm there if they need me for something, but I also let them be free to do their own thing. And, um, I expect the same from them. I've been very clear with them, um, that like, I have a right to a full life. They know that I love them and I'm available and I would, you know, do just about anything for them. I think it works both ways. There's kind of like a mutual respect that I think I've fostered with them their whole lives. Like, I've always tried to respect who they are as people, their feelings. Just because you're 3 or 4 or 6 or 12 doesn't mean that you're not a human being worthy of respect. And I think because of that, they're also. They respect me, you know?

F: Yeah, that makes total sense. And I think a lot of the book, and another thing I really loved about it, it's about that kind of finding your own self outside of your kids, outside of your husband, seeing yourself not just as a mother and a wife, but as a full person. Yeah. And I do recall in the book, one of your kids was kind of after they found out that you were in an open marriage. He was asking you like, where are you going all the time? But he wasn't asking your husband.

F & M: Right.

F: And you write: "Why doesn't anyone seem to care if fathers have sex, but every mother is supposed to be Virgin Mary." And you know, I think that that really, again, resonated with me, even though I don't have kids, is like, sometimes women do things in non- monogamy and it's like: "Oh my God, how are they doing this?" etcetera. For example, my partner is monogamous and I'm non-monogamous, which is like very uncommon. And luckily, just like you, I, you know, I also lived in Brooklyn many years and everyone's very open about it, but I do sense that imbalance of like, okay, if he was open and I was closed, then it wouldn't be kind of like newsworthy, you know, but because it's the other way around, then it's like, yeah, uh, what's going on? There must be something wrong, you know, right?

M: Right, yeah. Or, or it would be seen as like: "Oh, he must be manipulating you" if it were the other way around. And in this situation, it's like, it's like people pathologize it. People find when, when things go against what we, what we assume to be true, especially around gender. And I think that's part of what is so, um, what's shaking people up with my book. It's not that non-monogamy is new. It's that someone who lives within these constructs of being a wife and a mother is doing something so unconventional. And that kind of flies in the face of the stereotypes we have in a way that makes people freak out a little. But it's a widening of our understanding of, uh. Women need to be their full selves. And there have been a lot of different ways that women have tried to be made smaller. And I think we're getting to a point now where it's just like, this doesn't serve anyone if women don't live out loud, kind of. And we don't think men are all supposed to behave one way. It's kind of like: "Oh, if you're a man, you get to be an individual." Uh, this used to happen a lot with writing, and I don't think it happens as much anymore. But when I was like an English major in the 90s, you would take like a women's poetry class, but then other poetry classes would be just, you know, decided based on theme or style or things like that. Like, like men could be any kind of poet, but a woman was just a female poet, as opposed to like. Letting women be the full breadth of who they are.

So thinking that like all men are more sexual or all women are less. sexual or things like that is just, it's just so faulty and limiting.

F: Yeah, definitely. So tell me a little bit about how opening up your marriage help you see yourself as an independent person and find things that you like. Because you talk a lot about people pleasing tendencies.

M: Yeah.

F: And how opening up your marriage help you with that. So tell us a little bit more about that.

M: Yeah, well, I mean, I think it happened in a few different ways. You know, in terms of sex, for example, um, I realized early on and you know, in the book, I'm also in therapy throughout the years of the book, and that was really important because I think I could have just replicated all the same dynamics with each relationship if I didn't have help kind of understanding what I was doing and why. So I think for a while I was really trying I was really getting self esteem externally from men. So, you know, you referred to before, like, what can happen on dating apps when you get kind of like addicted to the attention that you get on dating apps. And like: "Oh, look, 120 guys just liked me." They don't like me. They've never met me. You know, it's, it's all just this facade really. And. But you, I, I was getting kind of high on that. And part of it is because as a mother, you know, some days you don't have time to even take a shower. You're exhausted. Like, you're not necessarily feeling like uh, an attractive, sexy person. So being seen as like a sexy, beautiful woman was enticing.

But I also realized I was still looking at myself as a sexual object, not as a sexual subject. I was still getting value from the value that men gave me. And it took time for me to start to figure out what it is I wanted and what I didn't want. Um, and from there also deciding what is it in sex that I want? What are the different things I might want? I would worry about hurting people's feelings and I would worry about not giving a man what he wanted from me. Even if it wasn't somebody that I was in a long committed relationship with. And it was like I was starting to really see some of the, um, you know the expression, like, like I had drunk the Kool Aid, I had drunk the, like, women are, women are supposed to be pleasers Kool Aid.

And it was spilling out even into these areas where I was supposed to be expressing myself. So that, that was transformative for me to see the way I was bringing these same behaviors into non-monogamy, um, so that I could address them. Um, and then the other thing I started realizing was sometimes in marriage or in any long term relationship in particular, we also outsource happiness. We say: "Oh, I want to my, I want my husband to make me happy." And they can't make you happy. You have to make yourself happy. You really do. And if you can only make yourself happy without your husband, then that's divorce. Right? But I think I had to learn how to make myself happy. And I realized I could do that within my marriage, which I also loved and within my family that I loved. Um, and part of what shone a light on this was when my husband would go out with someone else and I would get so angry and sad that I wasn't out doing something. But I would realize, especially as my kids got older and I couldn't use caring for them as an excuse anymore. It's like I actually can do whatever I want tonight. If as when my kids were, you know, 12 and 15 or something, they don't need me here, um, what do I want to do? And that's when I also like took up boxing and started playing guitar and started like trying to feed other parts of myself that I maybe had ignored prior. So it happened in a few different ways, I think.

F: Yeah. And I like how in the book or maybe in uh, an interview you did, you mentioned that you don't need non-monogamy necessarily to do that. Right. Like you started uh, playing the guitar more, singing more and taking boxing lessons and just, I don't know, spending more time on your own or with friends or you know, doing that sort of thing. And I think that it's important for all women, whether you are monogamous or non-monogamous, to realize that it's okay for you to have a life outside of motherhood. And that can be really difficult. Actually there's this quote here that um, is not from you, but you do cite it in the book. It's from Rachel.

M: Rachel Cusk. Yeah, I love her.

F: Yeah. A "A Life's Work: On Becoming a Mother" which I will definitely read at some point. Uh, but she says, uh, when she is with them, she is not herself. When she is without them, she is not herself. And so it is as difficult to leave your children as it is to stay with them. And then you say, um, this is actually Molly.

M: Okay.

F: I feel this to be profoundly true. It seems impossible that the person who just fucked a stranger is the same person who Daniel a Nate called mom.

M: Yeah. Yeah.

F: So can you tell us a little bit about that? Because again, I'm not a mother, but I think about that a lot because I do enjoy my independence so much, also from my partner. But I also have, you know, even though I'm not a mother yet, I feel like I have that instinct of caring for people. And I can only imagine how hard it would be to, you know, leave your children to go and go and have sex with someone else or if you're monogamous to do something else. But at the same time it's so needed.

M & F: Right.

F: And like we should all be doing that.

M: Yeah. Well, I think, um, yeah, there's like a kind of code switching that happens I think with moms where you're like turning it on the momness and, and then I think it's important though if you never go back to your non mom self just to like Just being Fernanda, being Molly, just like being. You lose that and you start to think that your mom self, this caring self, is the entirety of your being. So even though I did have to switch back and forth, I think it was only hard because I felt shame around it. If I didn't carry that shame, then it wouldn't feel so hard. And I think the way through the shame for me was to see how much better I felt and how much more alive and fulfilled I felt as I got further along in my journey and to see my kids are okay, even if I'm not with them all the time. Um, you know, I. I've had moments where, like, when I would drop my kids off at camp, even though, you know, they would be gone for two weeks, and I would cry and cry on the whole ride back from dropping. them off at camp, even though I wanted this time to myself, um, and. they would still be on my mind. But I didn't feel guilty when they were at camp because they loved camp. And I knew after, you know, when I would pick them up two weeks later, they would just be bursting with stories and they would have grown in these important ways and made new friends. And it's like you have to live through some of those stages with your children to understand they have to be without you. You know, this is good for them. Um, and if I'm just sitting there, pining for them and twiddling my thumbs or like, wishing they were home with me, that's not good either. So there has to be some growing pains on both, in both ways. But, um, I think. I think we send a message to mothers that they're supposed to be completely involved. And this is pretty new. I don't know if in past generations, it's not realistic at all. Um, and I think once you. Once you kind of experience it, like so many things, until you experience it, you might feel anxious. And so my hope is that my experience can make other women feel less anxious. You know, that it's okay. Not only is it okay, it's good for your kids to feed your own self.

F: Hi, everyone. Before we go into the second part of this interview, I want to quickly tell you about two things. If you're listening to this podcast, you've probably realized by now non monogamy can be really challenging. You may need help learning how to communicate, set boundaries, or even just figure out what it is that you want in the first place. That's why I created Polycurious, and that's also why I became a relationship coach. So if you feel like you need a hand walking down the polycurious path. You can schedule a, uh, free exploratory call with me by going to our website, polycurious.com Secondly, I wanted to tell you about STD check if you have more than one or even multiple sexual partners who are also likely to have sex with other people. Getting tested for STDs is so important, especially in today's world where they are becoming increasingly common. This is why we have partnered with STDcheck, a, uh, platform that makes it extremely easy to get tested. You can pay online, schedule an appointment, and, um, visit one of their many facilities in the US on the same day. And unlike other services that take weeks, they actually send you the results in just one to two days. So if you want a $10 discount to get tested, visit the link in the show notes or go to polycurious.com now back to the show.

M: They also have friends who, who did date a lot and had lots of sex in their 20s and 30s and maybe didn't get married until their late 30s. And they're not as interested in opening up their marriage now because they feel like they did all of that. And I think that's also fair to say too. But a lot of the women that I talked to who got married very young or maybe have had very few partners have felt like they want it more. But I, I don't know that it fits so neatly along those lines. But I don't want, um. I think it is true that it can, you can find freedom without it necessarily being sexual freedom. But for me, I know if I hadn't gone through this, I don't think. I think there was, there was something about my sexual self that was, that needed to be released as part of my finding myself.

F: Yeah, I think it might have to do with that. But I also think that in any long relationship. Right. How many years have you been with your husband?

M: I mean, we met when I was 23, so we've been together for 27 years and married for over 24.

F: Right. So 27 years is a very long time. So even if you had had those sexual experiences, it's hard for things not to get stale. Right, right.

M: That's true.

F: Again, I'm not an advocate for non-monogamy, but I do feel like, honestly, it can be the antidote to divorce. Yeah.

M: Yeah.

F: Because if you have that little outlet, I mean, as you write in your book, it's really hard. It can be really hard, but it can also be magical. Like, it can help a lot your relationship. Right. Uh, you write how you know you would go on a date or you knew you were gonna have a date and you were more patient with the kids and you, you were having more sex with your husband because you had a little bit of like a relief, uh, from that life. And that's why I feel like a lot of women who, and I'm sure you've gotten messages, a lot of women who like, might read your book might be like: "Wow, maybe, you know, maybe this is what's going to save my marriage." And I never recommend anyone to open up their relationship if, if you don't already have a strong foundation. But I do think it helps with longevity or it can help with long if you are non-monogamous, like inclined. Not everyone has to open up their relationship.

M: Yeah, I agree with you. I also think, though, um, what's important if you're going to open it up too though, is like, to make sure you're, you're aware how much communication is required. So, so I think there's this. It's not that subtle of a difference really, but to think that it's going to save your marriage just because you're doing it, that will not work. In fact, that will probably drive a wedge if your plan though, if you, if you're understanding that you have some needs that are not being met within the marriage, or even if you don't even know what it is that might, you know, it's not like you're looking for something specific or feeling unfulfilled in your sex life. I mean, I feel like my husband and I have had great sex and I feel like our sex life's even better now, though. Um, in part because I know myself better. But the communication that has to happen in order to stay connected through all. Of it is intense. So it's not like it's, um, it's not, it's not the, it's not the easier route. I think monogamy is challenging and non-monogamy is challenging because marriage is challenging and there's a lot to it. Um, another point that was embedded in what you just said, that 27 years is a long time. It's not even just about staleness, but like, who I am now and even who I was at 38 is different. I'm, I'm 51 now. It's like we, we evolve and we change as we age, and that's exciting. We don't want to have to stay the same. Right. I wouldn't want to still be the same person I was when I was 23 or 38, you know, and I hope that someday I'll look back at 51 and be like: "Ah, I remember when I was like that." You know, I look forward to aging partly because that means there's growth and evolution. I don't. I don't want life to feel stagnant. So I think, but you have to do it in a very mindful way to get. To get the most out of it. I love my life now, and I love the journey that we've. That we've gone on. I'm also super glad we're not back at the beginning of that journey because, like, I would not want to have to relive that journey because it was hard.

F: Yeah.

M: It's like the advice my mother gives me in the book that everything is an opportunity to learn about yourself. And it's not about doing the right thing or the wrong thing. It's about doing things mindfully so that you're learning as you go.

F: Yeah, that's great. And I must say, as you mentioned, having a good partnership and good communication is really, really important, I think, not just in non-monogamy, but especially in non-monogamy. And one of the things that really stood out for me in the book is how great Stuart is. You know, he reminds me, I mean, you are great, too, but I must say, it's harder to find men who are like him, you know, And I feel like Seth is one of those as well. Seth is my partner.

M: Yeah.

F: And, you know, like, for example, I think. I don't know, you were triggered about something. So you called him up and he was on a date, and he steps out of the date and talks to you, uh, and really puts you as his priority. And I think that if you are opening up your marriage and you are hierarchical and you have a primary partnership, I think that's one of the most important things that you feel like, no matter what, your husband or your wife or your partner is going to be there, you know, and you can. They're not forcing you to open up or ignoring you if they're out on a date or anything like that. And I think that that's also what I loved about the book, that you showed an example of how even with a strong partnership and communication, things go wrong. And it's really difficult. But you do come out of it, and you come out of it stronger.

M: Yeah. Yeah. I think as I have developed within myself, too, I haven't needed to ask Stuart to change too much that he's doing. You know, we don't make dates on Saturday nights with anybody else because that's our date night. Unless something comes up and then we can ask the other person, like: "Hey, could we switch their, you know, Thursday with Saturday?" Or something like that. Um, but I think part of, part of what I have learned too though, is, is to have also respect for his other relationships even though I know I am primary I try to. And this has taken a long time for me to get there. But, like, there are times when he, at least for a, uh, uh, period of time, is prioritizing somebody else. But that's because I. It's not. It's because at that moment, I don't need something, but you know what I mean? And I think I used to be tempted kind of to be like, to need more so that I could get him to prove again that I was the priority. But he was also very good at seeing through it when I would do that. So it's like, you know: "I'm sick. I need you to stay home." You know what I mean? Like, uh, I don't know. I just. I feel like, um, I did some things that were kind of more immature, but it came out of a place of insecurity, and it takes time. So I think it is important in the early stages to be gentle with each other, too. I, uh, write about this in the book, too. We had all these rules at the beginning, and the rules were all designed to not have any intimacy develop is really what I was trying to protect against. I wanted it to be just about sex. I didn't want him to actually love anybody else. Um, and I was afraid what would happen if I fell in love with somebody else. But what we ended up with, where we are now is our only rule really, is to take care of each other when feelings come up. So if he, for example, if, uh, something happens where I don't feel prioritized, I talked to him about it, and he is not allowed to say: "That's ridiculous. You shouldn't feel that way. I'm going to, like, let's not even have this conversation. If I feel that way, we need to talk about it." Even if he feels like it's not, um, a fair way for me to feel. And that's something we learned in couples therapy, that, you know, feelings are not facts. Um, I'm going to have insecurity crop up, and the price of admission, like, he gets to do just about anything. He wants to do as long as he helps me deal with the feelings that come up. Um, and that's, and I think sometimes we run the risk. I've heard this from people who have tried non-monogamy, this idea that like: "Well, if you're evolved, you won't get jealous. You'll just be, you know, you'll only have compersion and you won't be jealous. And I don't want to hear about your jealousy." That's, to me, that's not healthy. I think we have to allow people to have the whole range of emotions and not shame someone for their jealousy either. Um, also, people shouldn't try to be manipulative and wield their jealousy like a weapon, you know, and say like, well, I'm jealous. You shouldn't do that. It's, it's somewhere in the middle where if you're going to do this, accept that you're going to have some jealous feelings and one person might get more jealous than the other. I deal with jealousy. I grapple with jealousy a lot more than Stuart does. And so as a result, he has to do more to help me with it. But we've worked on it for this long, so now we're both in a much better place with that. And he doesn't get so defensive if I get jealous. Because it used to be you would say: "Why are you jealous? I didn't do anything that you didn't. tell me I could do." But it's not rational. It's just my feeling. And I need, usually I need some reassurance or I need some time with you, or I need something that's going to appease this. And being told that's ridiculous, you shouldn't. Be jealous is not going to help at all.

F: Yeah, you're right. You're touching on a lot of, of things that I try to get people to understand in my coaching as well. Which, uh, is that. Ah, yeah. As you said, one thing is our feelings and another thing our actions. Right. And we can control our actions, but not our feelings. So you mentioned, for example, the not falling in love rule. Right. And I always tell my clients, like, throw that rule out of the window. If you're going to open up your relationship, you have to know that that's, that that's a risk. And better talk about like what would happen if this happens and are we going to tell each other? Because I mean, there's also the option of not sharing that if you want to ignore it. But if you tell your partner: "Don't fall in love," and then they start catching feelings, they're going to feel guilty, even more guilty than they're already probably feeling. Because as you also mentioned, you were at first feeling guilty when you were going out on dates and things like that. Because we also need to get used to what we believe, right? Like, we believe that it's fine. Your husband told you that it was fine. Everything but our feelings are gonna be there, right? So you have to, like, no matter what you think you. You. No matter if you think you shouldn't be jealous, no matter if you think you shouldn't fall in love or you shouldn't feel guilty, you're gonna feel those things. So as you said, it's just about bringing them up with your partner and. Yeah. Not use them to manipulate them, as you mentioned as well. But just being like: "This is not because you did anything wrong. But I know that I said I was okay with you taking this person out for sushi, but now this feeling came up because you took me to the same place for my birthday." I don't know, whatever it is, but it's just like, how do you respond to that? And yes, sometimes it's just reassurance, and sometimes it's just literally, uh, you know, like a hug and just kind of like reassuring that person that that person is your priority if they're feeling deprioritized.

M: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, it's a fascinating thing. The full range of the human experience can be, you know, even over the course of a few hours sometimes. You know, I, um. I think there's. There's a lot of richness there, though. It's like, you're. My therapist used to say that to me: "Ah. Uh, you're in rich terrain right now, Molly. So, like, when things were particularly hard, that's also this, like, rich terrain of possible growth." And so one of the things people have said to me is like: "Well, if it was so hard, why did you do it? You know?" Or they assume that I was manipulated into doing it because I've written about the hard things or something that, like. But I think it's important to share what's hard about it and not to sugarcoat it and make it sound like it's just love and orgasms all day long. There's some really difficult parts, too. But it's an interesting thing to me that for a lot of other aspects of our lives, we don't say: "Oh, it's so it's hard. Why would you do that?" You know, people don't say to, like, a doctor, medical school is hard. Why did you do that? You know, or having kids is hard. Why didn't you just give your kid up for adoption? Or, like. You know what I mean? We embrace difficult things as challenges that help us to grow or that are worth it in the end in lots of other areas of life, but not always with relationships. And I think part of it is because, you know, sometimes you don't know: "Is this the right thing? Should I be feeling this bad right now?" You know, and so I do think it is really good to get counseling or help or, you know, to really have others you can lean on for an outside perspective, too, so that you can see it with some clarity what's happening, because it can be. It can also feel so disorienting to know, like: "What is going on right now? Am I supposed to be feeling this way right now? Or is this is, does this, is this a sign that I have done something, made a terrible mistake?"

F: Yeah. And I think that's a great point. And I know that therapy is not always accessible for everyone, but, um, you know, I do think, as you mentioned, that you having, by the way, great therapist.

M: Yeah, I know. I love this. I know.

F: I was just like: "Wow, wow, this person is really incredible." But, yeah, just having someone to guide you through it, I think helps a lot. I think, for myself, um, going back to something that we touched on, like the getting validation from men. Right.

M: Yeah.

F: And, um, for me, I think therapy helped me realize where the line is right because how do you know when you are seeing someone? Am, um, I enjoying this because I'm enjoying this, or am I enjoying the attention, enjoying the sex? But it's actually maybe not good for me because it's draining my energy, and I want to put my energy in some other places. Um, and I think it's important to kind of ask yourself those questions. And sometimes it's hard when you don't have, like, a sounding board. And, you know, it can be a therapist, it can be a coach. A lot of my clients also come to me, and I noticed that as much as I'm definitely helping them with the questions I'm asking, etcetera, Sometimes they just kind of need, uh, you know, like, someone to tell them what you're doing. It's okay. Don't you worry.

M: Yeah, yeah.

F: Like, this is. These are certain things that you can change here and there.

M: Right.

F: So I think for people out there, if you have the opportunity, whether it's with a coach like me or a therapist or just someone in your community, I think it's Important to ask yourself those questions because it does get pretty messy.

M: Right.

F: Times.

M: Or kind of like a mentor too. Like, I was also so lucky that I had my mother. I loved having my mother's perspective, which was so much about just living fully and paying attention to learn about yourself. And I think that's just a beautiful philosophy of life too, so thatyou're not, you know, you don't have to chastise yourself for things like: "Oh, uh, I should have known better, I shouldn't have ever dated that guy." Or "I shouldn't have let him do that" you know, but it's this is also how we learn and grow. If you're new and you date people who are a little further down the road, that can be helpful just to have and I found, like, for my husband too, since, you know, as we're heterosexual, but I guess this could work no matter what. I, um, was able to kind of hear, uh, the male experience of being in an open marriage. And my husband was hearing about the female experience of being in an open marriage. And it actually made him a lot more sensitive to what was going on for me because he realized, oh, yeah, because a lot of women he was dating were moms or were having like, issues with other men they were dating. That was problematic. And like, it made him a lot more empathetic to me. And me too. Like, me hearing about from a man's perspective, like: "Oh, okay, I can see." Like, it gave us just new perspectives on each other in a way that was helpful.

F: Yeah. I agree with what you said about dating people who have been doing it or even just because I also had that kind of process of realizing maybe I should not date monogamous men. And you know, from my perspective, it had to do with the communication and all of that.

M: Yeah.

F: I had no issue with them going off with someone else. I was happy for them even. It's just the way that they handled it that left me really turned off. As you said, you learn from the difficult experiences as much as from the good ones. Or more actually than from the good ones. But if you want to save yourself some time, I would say, uh, and you are not monogamous. I would say dating non-monogamous people, uh, or people who have experience or are very good communicators helps. Sometimes it's hard because of the NRE, but yes. And you know, you like who you like and whatever. Yes.

M: And I also think sometimes people put non-monogamous on their dating profile, but what they mean is they want to date lots of people until they find somebody to be monogamous with. Right. So I also have lean more towards, for me specifically, I've leaned more towards men in open relationships where they also already have a primary partner in place. It just, to me it just makes it simpler.

F: Yeah. Because of the time and energy balance.

M: Right.

F: If, if they're only dating you, even if they understand and respect that you have a husband.

M: Yeah.

F: They're going to want to spend more time with you because they have more, because they don't have someone else to date and you're going to have less time. Yeah.

M: Like: "Oh, you want to go out for brunch on Sunday" and you're like: "Oh, I don't really do that" you know.

F: Yeah. So just for that, for the balance of their relationship, I found that it's the best. Funnily enough, I haven't had any serious relationship with anyone with a partner, but I've realized that that's where I should be going, uh, heading towards.

M: The other thing that was kind of surprising to me is at first I was getting very jealous when my husband was dating younger women, but now I'm like: "Oh yes, please date younger women because they will set you straight so fast on" you know what I mean? Some of his antiquated ideas. He's now, I feel like fully rehabilitated by having dated younger women for a while now because you know me as a Gen X, there are certain things that I just got used to in the 90s, right. And somebody who is, you know, a millennial is not going to put up with that bullshit kinds of stuff. And so I've, I've now changed my tune entirely on him dating younger women. I'm like: "Perfect, go learn some things about, about what's wrong with the old guard of men."

F: I love that. See that's another thing that I really like about non-monogamy, that you get to learn a lot from people.

M: Yeah, uh, yeah, I like, you know, I've, I've said I have dated younger men. It's interesting. Mostly I have dated younger men. That also surprised me partly probably just because of like the same stereotypes around Gen X thinking, you know, this idea that women stop being sexy at a certain age or whatever. I, even when I was like 42, which now to me sounds so young, I would be getting like, like 28 year olds asking me out and I'm like, really? I thought I was like over the hill and then I'm like, oh no. Actually 42 is like the most sought after age, in my experience, it's like the 60 year olds want to date you, the 25 year olds want to date you. Everybody wanted to date me when I was 42 and I was like: "Oh." And now at 50, it doesn't seem to be a problem either. So it's fascinating.

F: That's great. That means, uh, that I still have a lot of time.

M: You've got plenty of time, plenty of time.

F: Well, Molly, as we are closing out, are there any other things that you want to bring? Bring up any other advice that you feel like might be helpful? I, um, mean especially for people who, you know, might be parents or people who might be in long term marriages and might want to open their relationship?

M: Yeah. Well, something about the parent issue that has come up. Um, the question about introducing, and this has come up for me personally too. Um, I have had partners in the past who, who wanted to introduce me to their kids and I have, um, resisted that. In part it's because I don't want to be a mom figure to anybody else because that's not what I'm looking for in my relationships. And I have worried that it becomes confusing for kids in both cases that where I was asked to, I wasn't sure that that relationship was going to last as long as the other person thought it was going to last. So I was also like, this feels like too much, you know, um, but I do think, you know, it's also possible. Um, my, my mother had a partner when I was a kid and I never knew it was her like, romantic partner. I just knew him as her best friend and they're still good friends and he's still in her life. I think the most important things to remember are, um, it's, it's kind of like if you're a single mom, you don't necessarily want to introduce a guy to your kids until you're really quite sure this person is going to be in their lives for the long haul. You know, be just because it can be too, too much, you know, it's like introducing someone to your parents, you know, and maybe, maybe that's, maybe that's the, maybe that's the marker. Like if you wouldn't introduce the person to your parents, maybe don't introduce them to your kids. But I don't know if that's like, I'm still open to other people's like, um, take on this because, um, it's new terrain. Um, introducing somebody as in a more friendly capacity is, I think, different. It's a tricky one though. It's kind of similar to my feeling about advice about talking to your kids about it, because I think there are better ways to do it than what I did. But I think part of the way I've done things has been informed by. the fact that nobody else was talking about it at the time. I think it's going to be something that's going to evolve as more people of the next generation are bringing up kids within this kind of maybe an open marriage or polyamorous arrangement. And just thinking about, making sure that everything you do, you know, that you're balancing what you're doing for yourself and what you're doing for your kids. So I think it's perfectly appropriate to do things just for yourself and, you know, trying your best to be authentic and honest and loving in all of your relationships, will you make some mistakes? Probably. But there is a line, um, when I was worried when my oldest found out about our open marriage, and I asked my therapist: "Do you think I'm. screwing up my kids?" and he was like, I think you're screwing them up the exact average amount and I think there's something very, very reassuring in that. It's like, we all just do our best. There's more than one parenting book out there because there's more than one way to parent. And it's not like there is just one way that everybody agrees on. And it's not like you're going to avoid every, you know, problem or difficult conversation if you're in a monogamous relationship either. So you're not. I don't think you're damaging your kids by having this kind of relationship. I don't think there's a strict rule about this is the way you should do it. You should tell them at this age. You should introduce them to your partners. You got to feel it out for yourself. And, um, and turn, you know, hopefully there'll be an increasing number of models to normalize it and to. And to give guidance.

F: Yeah. And I think it's important to note that every kid is different as well. So it depends on, as you mentioned, one of your kids read your book. One doesn't want to. You just have to fill it out. But I'm glad that we have people like you speaking out about their experience so other people can at least compare notes and figure out what might work for them. And I think the experience, the comment that you just made just shows that you are thinking about this. I appreciate you sharing your experience.

M: Thank you so much.

F: Well, thank you Molly for being on the podcast.

M: All right, thank you, Fernanda.