Cassie: I had to say, like, if Schuyler tells me that this is okay, if he says that he's on board, then I have to just believe that you. I have to just trust that he is making the best decision for him at that time too. Like, with me in mind, and that he knows what he's doing when he's answering these questions and agreeing to these things. I can't be like, well, he said it was fine, and then like, beat myself up about it, you know, or feel so bad afterwards because then it's not fun anymore. It's not, like, worth it.

Fernanda: Hi, everyone. Welcome to the second episode of the mono open minise series where I interview couples where one person is non monogamous and the other person is monogamous. And today we have Cassie and Schuyler. They have been together for a very long time. They're married. and similarly to Seth and eye. In this case, she is the one. Who's open while he has so far remained monogamous. And it's been interesting because in most of the mono open couples that I have found, the woman is usually the one that is open, which kind of goes against the stereotype. And I brought this up in a WhatsApp group for people in mono, open relationships or people who are just curious about that. If you want to join, you can find the link in the show notes. And someone said that it probably is because it's a lot easier to date.

For women and also because men tend to be a little bit more introverted. And it sounds like that's a little bit the case with Cassie and Schuyler You can see that they have very different personalities. You'll notice it by the fact that for the first 10 minutes or so, it's mostly Cassie and I talking. And then at some point, Schuyler eventually came around. But even then he was a lot quieter than Cassie, which makes sense given their dynamic. But something I really love about Schuyler is that he recognized that even though he hasn't so far been non monogamous with anyone, he would like to have the option. And also he understands that they got together at such a, young age that he doesn't want to restrict Cassie in what she does. Cassie, she's felt a lot of appreciation for Schuyler being okay with her having these experiences, even though she's felt a little bit guilty at times. And that's something that can happen right when you have a partner that doesn't feel the need to date other people. You might be like, why do I need so much? What's wrong with Me. So we would get to talk about that guilt, about that appreciation for Schuyler and about their process going from Cassie having more casual relationships to having relationships that are a little bit more significant and how that was hard on Schuyler and how they dealt with that. If you love this conversation and want a little bit more from their interview on my Patreon, you'll also find a little clip about the one time that Schuyler agreed to Cassie going out with someone that he didn't have a good feeling about and what happened after that. So if you're interested in checking out the Patreon where you can find that and a bunch of other extra content and also where you can join our monthly support group if you want, you can find the link in the show notes. Lastly, remember that if you're struggling with non monogamy and you feel like you might want some support, I'm here to help. And you'll find the link to book a free exploratory call in the show notes as well. Okay, guys, we have a lot to cover, so let's get to it. Here's my interview with Cassie and Schuyler.

Welcome, Cassie and Schuyler. I'm so excited to have you. I love that you are open to sharing your story as, mono poly or mono open couple. You'll tell us more about that. because there's not that many of us and we need to help those out there who want to try out this type of relationship dynamic. So, yeah, just welcome. I'm really happy to have you here.

C: Thank you. For me, Polycurious Curious definitely helped me through a lot. And, like I told you before, like, Dr. Zhana´s episode changed a lot for me. And then hearing your in Seth's episode was like, oh, my gosh, that's like us. Like, there's a lot of differences, but a lot of similarities too. So I struggle with my relationship with technology and social media, but then when things like this happen, I'm like, okay, maybe it's. Maybe it's kind of cool sometimes.

F: Yeah, I feel you. Because I also try to not be too much on my phone, but then I'm like, oh, wow, I connected with someone from a completely different world. Mean, I know it's in the US but in terms of the community that you're in.

C: Yeah, for sure. And yeah, just like where we are in the country, we're in Florida, so we're so far apart, but it's so cool that we can talk and help each other and connect because of this platform that we have.

F: Yeah. So maybe we can start there learning a little bit more about your community. When we talked over the phone and you shared how polycureses had been helpful to you, you did mention that where you are there's not that much acceptance of this type of relationship structure. And that had been a little bit, difficult. So tell us a little bit more about where you come from and how that journey of becoming a little bit more accepting of yourselves started.

C: Yeah, I mean we do live in a somewhat small town. I mean, it's growing rapidly it seems, but it is southern and we live in a military town. Like we've got, it's just a huge military base here. It seems very like, you know, conservative, like religious part of the country, which doesn't seem to like align with a lot of like what we believe. we both were raised in like Christian households, which obviously has a lot to do with like how you view like relationships and sex I think like from a young age. So, yeah, at that time I just really didn't have. I didn't really know how I felt, first of all, because it was just something that I had never really been exposed to. I didn't know anybody who had been like in an open relationship. Like, I just knew that there were like, relationships and then there was like people who cheated on their partners. And I think in a lot of ways I don't think that I ever would have understood it if it didn't happen to me. It's really hard for people to understand how it could be possible if you don't. If it doesn't happen to you or if you're not in a situation. So I guess I found myself in a situation where first of all, Schuyler and I have known each other since I was 15.

F: and how old are you, if you don't mind me asking?

C: I'm 30 now and 31. So yeah, we met in high school and math class and very sexy. Ye, I think he asked me to be his girlfriend in BTH class. So we were not focused on math. but I just knew Schuyler was like special. You know, like something about him like made it feel like he was more than just like some boy that I had a crush on. You know, I told my whole family, I was like, oh, he's my soul mate. Like I'm gonnary him, like I love him. And then, you know, we were a little like, we were like smoking weed and thinking about having sex. And like, I had told that to my sisters and they basically told my parents, you know, and they were like, no, more like, you guys have to break up. You know, you can't see this boy. And I was like, you're ruining my life. Like, this is the worst. They really didn't care. And so, you know, life went on. And I dated other people through high school.

F: So you did break up with him because your parents told you, too?

C: Yeah, and I was 15, so I was like, kind of can't, you know? But anyway, I, you know, had some other boyfriends, like, Schuyler, had other girlfriends and relationships and, you know, sex with other people. And I think I remember, like, telling my family, like, I'm just gonna be with him again one day. I just know it, you know? Like, I never had a boyfriend that lasted more than, like, two monthsuse I what I found out. I like a little bit of a novelty seeker, you know, I, like, get really excited about something, and it's, like, infatuating. And then, like, time goes on, and I just kind of get a little bored or I'm like, I don't really know if this is what I want. I just kind of want to keep having fun. You. But then Schuyler and I ended up connecting after high school, and I was like, well, I'm an adult now. Like, I don't have to listen to my parents. And my mom was like, oh, my God, this guy again. But now she loves him. Like, she loves him so much. My parents were really stripped. Like, my dad is a captain in the military. You know, my family is religious. Like, they were wanting to know where I was and what I was doing at all times. You know, like, anytime I was up to something, I was, like, sneaking, you know, like, doing sneaky teenage stuff. But, yeah, we just ran into each other. And then, I was like, this is it. You know, I was 17 then, so it really was only, like, a couple years later. But that feels like I graduated high school when I was 17, and I basically moved out and moved in with Schuyler. And that's crazy to think about that. Like, from the very beginning, we were so young, and we were just. We've been living together for 13 years now. From a young age. It's a lot.

F: Yeah, it is. What a story. And, Schuyler tell us a little bit about your, upbringing and why you think that you were open to this type of relationship.

Schuyler: Yeah, my upbring wasn't as far as religious beliefs wasn't that much different than Cassie's. my dad is really religious. My mom also, as a Christian, but Just not as hardcore. my parents got divorced at a young age. So on one side at my dad's house, I was pretty locked down and it was a pretty rural area, so we didn't really, couldn't really get off, get out of the house much. But at my mom's in town, she worked two jobs and I was pretty much on my skateboard, you know, just going around town, hanging out with friends all the time, you know, until the sun went down. And then I also had an older brother who was about 10 years older than me. So was. He was kind of the more rebellious type. And just seeing him, M. I know I looked up to him and he was kind of getting into trouble, I guess. So that's kind of what I gravitated to. But I guess as far as like the decision to let Cassie see other people, it happened after we had already been pretty secure in our relationship. And I guess I just felt both of us had been together from such a young age. You know, we kind of maybe had lacked some of those life experiences that for just for being in a relationship from such a young age. So maybe deep down I kind of wanted some of those life experiences for myself and maybe thought that that would open the door, I guess. And also just out of the love for Cassie, I don't want to, you know, rob her of any life experiences that she could have. But really it's just, you know, Cassie's always made me feel very secure and how much she loves me, like it's always been very clear. So I guess that just gives me a lot of confidence in that area.

C: Yeah. He said something earlier that I just thought was really cool because, you know, we've been talking about you, talking with you and stuff. And he was like, I just thought if you were asking me for it, like. And it was also something that I had thought about, like, of course I would like let you do it. And I just thought it was kind of crazy like how easy he could like come to that conclusion, you know, because like when I think about it, like of course I want him to have those experiences too, but it is difficult to think about. For me, it's difficult. It seems like it's so obvious for him, like, oh, I would want that. Then of course I would give that to you. Which for me, I know that that's the obvious right way to look at it, but it just doesn't always seem that simple.

F: Yeah, for sure. I know that, at the time, Schuyler, you were like, oh, I might want this for myself. But even, even now that, as far as I understand you haven't explored non monogamy, you are still able to put yourself in Cassie's shoes and be like, oh, I understand why she would want it. Which is something that people can't really do even though they want it sometimes. Yeah. So mean. How long were you guys together before this came up? And also sounds like Cassie, you were the one that brought it up. How was the process for you to be like, okay, I'm going to open up and tell him.

C: I think that I didn't, know anything about non monogamy. I mean, I didn't even know what that word was really. The first time practicing that was really difficult for me and I made mistakes because the first time was with a woman. And I always thought that I was straight. Like, I always thought that I was a straight woman. And I'd been in a heterosexual relationship for like almost four years at this point. it was like four years into our relationship and, I just was working with this girl and she was clearly a lesbian, like a beautiful lesbian. She just gave off this masculine energy and I just, it just was obvious. And she liked me and I liked the attention that she gave me and it felt good to flirt with her and get to know her in that way. And, we ended up making out one time. And technically I didn't tell Schuyler about it like beforehand. I just kind of thought I had gotten drunk at parties and made out with my girlfriends before. Or I just feel like in the culture that I grew up in too, like, women are so overse sexualized, so it's easier to think about two women, like kissing or something. It's fun to think about. To some people. It's just didn't seem like as much of a threat at that time because it was what it was. Which now I totally see that differently. But, yeah, I ended up making out with her and then telling Schuyler about it after the fact and just being like, I want to hang out with her more. But I remember him being kind of like, not really thrilled about it, but just kind of like, whatever. Like just, I don't really care that much. And I was like, okay. And we all hung out together a couple times too. Like he would hang out with us, like out in public and stuff, and they met each other. Like she knew I had a boyfriend. It was just a really foreign situation for all of us, I think, because I was like, first of all, what does this mean for me? Sexually, what is my sexualityus? I've never even felt this way about another woman before. So that was a lot to deal with. Like, unlearning, like, my Christian upbringing and being like, is this wrong? Is this just like a phase I'm going through or something like that. and then also, like, trying to find the courage to, like, explain that to someone that I love. Also, like, with the possibility of him being pissed, know, like, and being like, no, what the hell are you thinking? Like, I don't think that he felt threatened by it. Like, I think he just kind of thought, like, maybe she's just figuring some shit out or, like, having fun or something. I don't know. You can say if you felt differently.

S: Yeah, I don't remember feeling super threatened or anything. just kind of goes back to, like, we were just both young and trying to figure out ourselves a lot, and we both like to have a good time and, you know, have fun. So I definitely didn't want to tell her that she couldn't do anything. And then the fact that she came to me, you know, and this was honest about it, you know, I would have never known about it if she didn't come to me. So just coming with that honesty, first off, I mean, I guess kind of didn't give me any reason to be that upset or, feel that threatened.

F: About it, you know, I understand that there's a part that's like, okay, well, she's a woman, I'm a man. I can't give her what she's getting from this other woman. But wasn't a part of you that was a little bit, like, oh, but what if this means that she's gay and, that she's going to break up with me or something or. Even if you didn't experience that, how did you have the openness to be like, oh, sure, continue. And then I can meet her too, without feeling any s. Sort of. Okay, this is weird. This person kissed my girlfriend. And, we're all hanging out. Why do you think that you didn't experience that?

S: I mean, there were weird vibes, I would say. Like, I mean, I didn't feel 100% comfortable hanging out with her. I mean, I don't think. I mean, the first one, like, there was maybe a feeling that the girl was trying to steal my girlfriend, you know, so maybe there was a little bit of defensive feelings on my part, but I just didn't, you know, think that. That Cassie would really leave me, I guess. So I wasn't like super threatened by.

C: It, but he never was like, these feelings are strong enough that like, I'm not going to like allow you to do this. I think it was like, these are natural feelings that are to be expected and you know, how am I go going to proceed, you know?

F: Yeah. And I think that's a really important point for listeners out there who might want to try this out. Is okay to have those feelings, but I think that what's important is that you don't put them on your partner. So it's not like if you're going to do, a mono poly relationship or mono open relationship, that means that you're not jealous and you're totally okay with your partner doing whatever they want and it's all good. It's like, okay, you'll be jealous and that's okay. And your partner can even make space for those feelings. But don't complain to your partner about being jealous. If you agreed to your partner going on a date or whatever it is, know that those feelings can be brought up if you want. And I'm not sure, Schuyler, if you brought up those feelings with Cassie, but one thing is to bring them up and talk about them. Another thing is not, being mindful also of the other person. Because if you bring them up in a way that is showing that you are not happy with it or really struggling or that you are not actually okay with it, then the other person is going to feel like they're doing something wrong. When everything was agreed upon.

C: Yeah. And that's definitely been like a challenge for me already. Like just feeling like first of all feeling like selfish that I have this amazing relationship that when I look around, other people's relationships, I just feel so lucky to have what I have. I feel like it's very rare and feeling like I still wanted to get to know other people or have the ability to get to know other people. Like when I already had something so amazing was a hard feeling to get over. And also like the challenge of sometimes I can be a little bit of like a self sabotager, you know, and get in my own way. Like if I had to say, like, if Schuyler tells me that this is okay, like if he says that he's on board, then I have to just believe that. I have to just trust that he is making the best decision, like for him at that time too, like with me in mind and that he knows what he's doing when he's answering these questions and agreeing to these things. I can't be like, welly said it was fine and then beat myself up about it or feel so bad afterwards because then it's not fun anymore. It's not worth it. So just really taking him at his word and being like, okay, he said it was like this and I'm just going to take that for what it is and move on. Instead of, basically, I can have a bad habit of just beating a dead horse going on and on and on and being like, but are you sure? Tell me how you feel. And he's like, I don't feel that much about it. It's fine. I'm like, that's crazy to me.

But okay, yeah, yeah. And I think that's also very important. There needs to be trust and transparency. There's, some self awareness that's necessary of, okay, these are my boundaries. This is what I'm okay with. And it's okay to say, I'm not sure if I'm okay with this. And something that'said a lot is that whenever I ask him something, he's like, okay, I need time to think about it and then he'll come back to it. Right? And, what that tells me is that, okay, he didn't just say yes, yes, right. He thought about it. He came back with, that response. And earlier on, whenever, he'd be like, okay, you can only date one time per month. And I wanted to be this and that whenever he had requirements like that. Even though I was a little bit frustrated because I wanted to just do it my way and do whatever I wanted dating, I was also like, okay, this is showing me that he's actually serious about it and that, he's not just saying it to say it. He's been intentional about it. But even then, I also experienced the feeling like I was doing something wrong. Like, oh, am I being too greedy? Especially because in our case the other partner doesn't want the same thing. So then you feel like, why, if the other person doesn't want the same thing I wanted, what does that say about myself? Does it say that I'm greedy? Does it say that nothing is s enough for me? Do I not care about my partner and they care more about me? All those doubts can come up. And I think that, that's why Dr. Zhana´s conversation was powerful to you as well. And that's episode, two for listeners out there. I will put the link in the show notes, but she talks about how it really depends on our personality. It's not about how much you Love your partner or how good or a bad person you are. It's literally biological traits, biological and environmentalput for whatever reason, Cassie, you and I are more inclined to want novelty, right? We're novelty seekers, and that's just a trait. Just like some people like blue and some people like yellow. Some people are noblety seekers, and some people don't care as much for that novelty. And actually, on that note, is that the case for you, Schuyler, that you don't care that much for that novelty? Or why do you think that you haven't decided to explore other relationships?

S: I think it's just the amount of work that it really takes. And I guess just being in a relationship from such a young age, maybe I kind of forgot how to go and make that connection with other women in that kind of way, you know, more than just like a friend kind of way. And then maybe the stipulation of it just kind of makes me feel awkward now that, you know, I'm married, I guess. And, I mean, I definitely do have desires and stuff. And, we've talked about, you know, opening our relationship up together and, you know, possibly bringing partners into our own relationship and stuff like that, to maybe facilitate something together.

C: Yeah. One thing I realized when I was listening to your and Seth's podcast two was the similarities, but also the differences. I would say that while I am a novelty seeker, I don't need it all the time. I'm not going on dates once a week. I'm not going on dates once a month. I don't know if I've ever really been on an actual date, actually. I don't really want to do that kind of work either. I don't want to do the work of texting with people and going meeting new people all the time. I really found that what I want is just that if I happen to meet somebody in a situation and it's very organic and I'm like, oh, I want to get to know this person more in a different way. I just want to know that I have the ability to do that. Every situation that I've had come up. I've never used an app or really tried to be dating people. It was always just kind of like happened to be in the same space as this other person and we connected. And then I didn't want to feel like I was in a cage because of my relationship. so I guess what I was realizing, reflecting you, getting ready to talk to you, was that it seems like I have one of these situations happen about, like, every Two years. You, like, every two years, I'll, like, end up meeting somebody and be like, I like them. I want to get to know them, like, in a different kind of way. And then I'll have to, like, figure out, like, when is a good time to bring it up to Schuyler because that's another challenge, too, like, trying to find the most optimal time, like, when we're both in a good headspace, or, like, trying to deliver it in a really gentle way. because I haven't always been the best at that.

F: Yeahah. That's interesting. And I do want to kind of go back. We jumped a few steps. So what happened with that relationship, that first relationship? m. That many years ago, Honestly.

C: It just kind of fizzled out. I think she ended up moving, to another state shortly after that, too. And then we were like, well, that was just kind of something crazy that happened, and it was cool that we could talk about it in a way. And now we just, like, resume our normal life, you know, and that's what we did until the next time it happened, you know, which was pretty different, from the first time, for sure. I think for me and Schuyler like, it felt a lot different the second time, which was also with another girl, and we were at a music festival, and she just approached me. Like, I was just dancing with my friends, having a good time, and she just approached me and was like, you're so beautiful. Like, here's my number. I'd love to get to know you. And of course, I was flattered because it was so unexpected. And I was like, day three of a festival. I, like, look crazy, you know, I'm like, wow, Pretty. That's so awesome. Yeah. she didn't live in the same. You know, we both live in Florida, but she lived in St. Pete, which is, like, six and a half hours away from me. And we met on the last day. So I ended up going back to her campsite with her, and it was just amazing. Like, I could tell off the bat that she was, like, some kind of pillar in this community of, like, creatives. You know, she's a tattoo artist, she's a musician. She just seemed like she had a lot of connections, and every time we'd turn a corner, someone'd be like, oh, hey, what's up? And they knew her. It was just good energy. So I felt very infatuated after meeting her, and I was like, oh, my gosh, this is so crazy. Like, tomorrow we're going to go back to our homes, and, like, when Am I going to see her again? You know, and there was, like, a sexual tension off the bat because same thing. Like, you could obviously tell that she was a lesbian. She was beautiful. She had a masculine energy about her, and I loved it. I was like, this is so just a really cool connection. So some months went by and we just texted and sexted and chatted and stuff, and that was just fun. We really didn't have any expectations.

F: and at that point, was Schuyler at the festival as well?

C: Yeah, he actually did meet her at the festival. He came back to her campsite with me for a little while, too.

S: Yeah, we had a good night that first night.

C: Yeah.

S: The last night, I don't think.

C: Did you, like, know that she was, like, hitting on me?

S: Yeah, I think there was obvious.

C: Okay. I wasn't sure. yeah, but he didn't really seem bothered by it, to be honest. Like, at one point he was like, I'm going to go back to our campsite. And I was like, okay, I'm going to stay. And we just. I think, like, the vibes were there. We all kind of knew what they were, but we didn't really talk about it too much.

F: Why was this relationship very different? Was it more challenging? Was it easier? In what ways was it different?

C: I think it was just different because we jumped to, like, a big visit. My friend was a wine rep, and so she had, a business meeting basically in St. Pete. And she knew about this girl because we were at the festival together, and she was s. Like, I have to go down to St. Pete for the weekend. Like, would you want to come with me and visit your friend and we can just have, like, a girls s trip? And I was like, yes, this will be amazing. So I was like, oh, my gosh. How am inna like, ask Schuyler if I can, like, go hang out with this girl for the whole weekend, though, you know, it just felt a lot more intense. you know, then I was like, I have to ask, you know.

F: Yeah, for sure. What a good opportunity. And you said at that point you had already sexd with her. Is that something that you discussed with Schuyler?

C: I mean, Schuyler knew that we had been, like, communicating, like, really a lot since we'd met at the festival. But I don't know. I mean, did you. What did you,

S: I mean, she had definly. Cassie had definitely expressed interest in the girl and knowing her history in the past, like, the tendency to maybe explore that side of herself or wanting to, You know, I didn't have a Problem with her talking maybe. And I wasn't really asking that many questions probably. but then when the time came that she actually asked me, I didn't really think too much of it either. you were apprehensive maybe. Yeah, maybe. it wasn't really t until after the fact that I think I really started having the more doubts, that just really seeing how much Cassie really, liked the girl and just how much interest she showed. And I think at that point afterwards I maybe had kind of looked through some text messages and seeing just how emotional or you, how words were being used like love and stuff. And maybe that made me have some doubts in our own relationship and gave me that first scare that like, what if someone takes her away from me or something like that.

F: Yeah. So the first time around it was like, oh, she's just exploring. We got together so young. She's probably just horny and having fun and whatever. And the second time around is like, okay, they're saying to each other that they love each other. Like, this is not just a sexual thing, this is a, ah, romantic thing. Do you think that that was the distinction?

S: Yeah, definitely. And just like maybe doubts in my own head, like, is she maybe, is she really a lesbian? Like, is, is shen say come to me? Cause that has happened with people that we know, you know?

C: Yeah.

S: People break up and they realize, know as they're older that their sexual preference changes or whatever. And so maybe that was a fear that that could happen.

C: But also I want to reiterate that like I, you know, am'm just a lover. Like I say I love you to people like after the weekend if I know if I love them, you know, it doesn't mean I was like in love with her. I know I was infatuated with her, but I was like just knowing what I already know about you. I love you as a human being as much as I love people on this earth. And I think after he found that out and we kind of talked about it and I kind of explained that, I was like, babe, it's not like when I tell you I love you, like I'm in love with you, you know, like, it's more of just like, like when I tell her I love her, I'm just like, I fucking love you. You know, like, you're so cool. Like not the same kind of way, which some people think that throwing around the L word is like a really serious thing. I think it's really serious too, but just in the way that I seriously want people to know that I love them.

F: Right. Yeah, I think there's a difference, in tone there. Right? Like, love you or love your energy or, opposed to a text that only says I love you. Righteah. That can be very different. But, Schuyler how did you come across this text? Did you sneak into Cassie's phone or did she show you, or how did that happen?

S: I think there was some, maybe sneaking involved, and there was just a random scrap of paper that had like, a little almost like a love poem on it. And it just. I don't know, it just reading that was just kind of hard, I guess. I was like, man, she's really in love with someone else. You know, it just. I guess just started asking the hard questions of, like, you know, how serious is this? And you, what's the end game? I guess, or, you know, you're not going to move away or anything. Are.

C: I think it was hard too, because when I came back from that weekend, I was really sad. I don't know. I think I just, like, I did kind of fall in love, like, really quickly. And this, like, way I was like, this girl is amazing. Like, I met all of her friends, I went to her job, I let her give me a tattoo. You. I was just like, she's so cool.

F: And you got a tattoo that weekend that she tattooed on you? What's a tattoo?

C: at the festival, she, you know, on our last day there, and we were like, in to part ways, but it was s. Just so wild. It sounds silly to think about because we had known each other for, like, six hours, but we were just like, oh, I don't want to, like, leave. I just want to keep hanging out with you. So we gave. She gave me a piece of jewelry that she had made, which was like a little mushroom pendant. And so I sent her a piece of jewelry that I made, like, a couple months later, like, from my house to her house. And it was a butterfly. So I let her give me a little mushroom tattoo with a butterfly sitting on itus. It was like, right?

F: So it wasn't just like, oh, she tattooed something. I like a design. I like it'like. She tattooed something that represents our connection. Yeah.

C: Yeah. And, you know, I think I just realized, like, on the last day when I was saying goodbye to her in her hometown, you know, we were hugging each other, and we both kind of cried a little bit because I think it just felt like it was this amazing weekend, and we both had, like, found this person that we really connected With. But just, like, that was it, you know, like, we just kind of knew that, like, after this weekend, like, it probably wasn't really goingn to continue to go anywhere because I have to go back to my life, you know, and, like, she's gonna go back to her life. And I knew that she was too good to, like, be single, you know, for much longer. I was just like, I just know that, like, you're going to get a girlfriend. Like, you know, and she did. And we ended up running into them and meeting them, and it. I feel, like, cool. I feel like anyime you were around her, it was pretty. Like, there's always going to be some hints of awkwardness at certain times, but for the most part, it was, like, you know, pretty easy to be around each other. But, yeah, it was just. I think that scared him, too. Like, just seeing how I came back from the weekend and being kind of like I was crying, like, I was just a little sad, and I just felt, like, confused about, like, why do I feel this way? And, like, what does that mean for, like, my relationship with Schuyler? And, like, am I, like, in love with somebody else? Or, like, is this just, like, you know, it just felt more intense, you know?

F: Yeah. Yeah. I'm glad you're bringing this up, because I went through a similar thing probably more than once. Like, I had a connection at a festival. It felt so magical. And then I would get worried because I was infatuated with that new connection, and because we grew up thinking that you can't have that feeling for two people at the same time. And it is actually true that you can't have the feeling of infatuation for two people at the same time, but you can definitely love two people at the same time. And at that point, you had already been together seven years. It's not like your feeling of infatuation for this woman was going to take away from your feeling of infatuation with Schuyler because you weren't infatuated with him anymore because it had been seven years. Like, infatuation. It's like a beginning state. And I think that's helpful to remember for both sides. Like, if you are the person who feels infatuated with someone else, don't freak out. Don't think that, it means that there's something wrong with your relationship or that you are going to. I don't know. In my head, I would think, like, oh, does this mean that I'm going to run away with this other person, even though I still very much love said everything was Fine with him. But those insecurities that can come up, I would say don't listen to them as much. Or at least that's what I learned. That whenever I have those feelings now, I don T. I don't take them too seriously, or I don't think that they need to affect my relationship with ZH and then on the other side, same thing. Like, if your partner is experiencing new relationship energy, know that it doesn't have to do with you, that their new relationship energy is because it's a new relationship. You are an old relationship. There's no way that you could fulfill that need for newness and adventure and infatuation. You did at some point, but now it's just impossible. but, yeah, in the moment, if you are both confused, if you are both like, oh, I don't know what's going on, I feel like I am developing really strong feelings for this other person. I'm really sad I'm not with them. And then also, Schuyler is noticing that energy. It can be very difficult. So how did you guys come out from that?

C: for me, to be honest, the infatuation thing is really interesting in, like, the old, new relationship kind of talk, because I remember afterwards, I was, like, re. Infatuated with Schuyler because I was like, I can't believe that he let me do that. I can't believe that I have such a selfless partner. I walked away from that ext. Experience feeling like I loved Schuyler more. You know, like, some people are like, oh, they're going to go have this experience, and what if they fall in love with that person and then they don't love me? Which was, like, the complete opposite feeling I had. Like, I had, like, a feeling like, I love Schuyler so dang much, like, for giving me this opportunity. And it just validates how special, like, I already knew that he was. And after I gave myself a day or two to kind of get through those uncomfortable feelings of almost like a breakup in a way, or grieving this connection that I just kind of knew wasn't going to flourish after that weekend, I took that time. I was like, I'm sad right now. That's just how it is. And then a couple of days later, I remember feeling that same feeling and just being like, yeah, I just love him so much. Like, I just feel so lucky. And it's almost like any time, like, I have had an experience like this, it makes me love him more. It makes me m. Like, become, like, infatuated with him again. And just being like, wow, you're so perfect.

And it also kind of like sexually ignites me more like, you know, like love and love makes more love. Like having sex here makes me want to have sex over here too. It like fuels me. Like I feel like in our relationship as well, like even just like thinking about those things and talking about our fantasies and stuff, it's like sexy, you know. And then I'm like, okay, now I want to have like more sex with you. Which like, you know, is I think good, but also can be, you know, maybe weird too. Like that like having sex with someone else, like makes you want to have sex with your partner more or like how to. How does Schuyler feel about the fact that like me having sex with another person like makes me want to have sex with him more? Like maybe that's weird.

F: Well, how did you feel about it? Because I know that Seth felt weird about it. You guys mentioned that you listened to our episode, and so you probably heard him being like u. I thought it was a little weird that you wanted to have sex with me after a date, but other people can find it really hot. So I don't know. What was your situation, Schuyler?

S: Yeah, I mean we had a few hard talks and a few days but then after she reassured me for, of her love for me and kind of talked me off the ledge, I was okay. And then when the extra attention afterwards, the infatuation with me, it definitely feels good. and I just was open to receiving it, I guess.

F: Right, so you also saw that she wasn't just talking, she was showing you her appreciation for you. And I'm glad that Cassie, you brought up feeling grateful for your partner because obviously that also happens in relationships where both people are non monogamous. But I think there's an added layer of wow, this person is letting me do this even though they are not doing it. And it just feels so good because at least for me, it just feels like, oh, I can be myself. He's not doing it so he can get something in return. He's not doing it so then he can go and do the same. He's doing it truly because he wants me to be happy and to be free. And it's just so beautiful when you feel like you are completely seen by someone in that way.

C: And also like there is a different element too of like actually having intimacy with another person and like not comparing it but like realizing for me that like, okay, like while I like had intimacy with these people and it was really fun and exciting, like it just cannot compare to the intimacy that I have with Schuyler. You know, like, it's fun and everything, but it also makes me really appreciate what we have more. Because when you are intet with someone that you are in love with and that you've built a life with and that you're so comfortable with, when I'm with Schuyler it really feels like it's coming from my heart space. It is so much more vulnerable, and just nothing can compare, which also just makes me really appreciate what we have and being like. I think at the beginning, I was like, I really want to do this, and I didn't know what I would do if Schuyler said no. you know, like, then it's like, okay, now you have to make a choice. Like, is this, more important to you than, like, your relationship? To, like, experience this or to have this, like, you know, experience? Or is Schuyler more important to me? And I feel like in the beginning of our relationship, I wasn't sure. Like, I didn't know how I would react if he had said no. Like, would I be okay with it and then just, like, resent him later? Or, like, would I, I don't know, just, like, cheat or do something, like, bad? But now I feel so much differently about it because I've been able to have those experiences. and maybe that will change over time. But, like, at this time, I feel like. And I always tell this to Schuyler like, anytime now, I'm just like, if you aren't cool with it, just say so. And I literally won't care. I won't pursue it anymore. Like, really bring it up again. Because at this point in my life, like, no experience like, that would really be worth, like, losing what I have with Schuyler. So, like, he lets me do what I want, but, like, he's the driver, like, in a lot of ways. You know, Like, I say, like, just tell me yes or no. Like, do you want to do it or not? Like, are you okay with it or not? Like, and it seems like he just, like, lets me do whatever I want, but, like, really, like, he has a big part in these decisions. And at this point, if he was like, no, I'm not comfortable with it, or I don't want you to do that, I would be like, okay, I respect that. Which I don't know if I always felt that way in the past, but I do think that having the ability to have these experiences has made me realize how much I value my relationship.

F: Yeah. And I love that. And it's interesting because I've been hearing a lot about non hierarch, non monogamy. And I think that there's a lot of criticism out there around the veto power, which is kind of what you're referring to right now. Like, if Schuyler were to say, you meet another person like you did at that festival, and Schuyler were to say, nope, you are not going to have that connection. You're not goingna go visit her and get a tattoo and experience what you experience, then the criticism is what happens to the other person, what happens to the woman that you met at the festival. Right. But I do think that when it's a mono open relationship, it does help a lot that there's hierarchy. But if there's like no hierarchy and you'monopoly, then how can the mono person feel any sort of security? Right. And I think that the video power is not like Schuyler would tell you, no, you can't do this, and you would say, okay, and that's it. Right. The veto power quote, unquote. Maybe it is not veto power. It's more like having a conversation. Right. And I feel like, I don't know, Schuyler you can tell me if that's true. But I feel like what gives Seth the confidence of letting me go and explore, even though that's something that he's not doing, which might in a way put him at risk, is the fact that he knows that he can say no, and he knows that he can do that, but it just feels like it gives that security that makes these relationships possible. I don't know if, like a monopoly relationship where there's no hierarchy would work. I'm not so sure, I guess.

S: I mean, it's really just her, her empathy for my feelings. She's always looking out for me and making sure that I feel okay with everything.

C: And yeah, like, it's not like he has, like this hierarchy. Like, it can seem that way, but like, at the end of the day, even if he told me no, like, I still have a choice to make, you know, am I gonna respect that or am inna, like, do what I want, you know? So, like, I, feel like I give him the option you. Because I genuinely want to know how he feels, like, are you okay with it or not? You know? And then I choose, like, okay, I respect that. I'm gonna, like, take that into account. Or I'm like, no, this is too important to me. I've just never felt like it's been too important to me, you know? Like, I never felt like I was like, submitting or like, giving like you know, but honestly, we've never really had that happen either. Like, you've never really told me. No.

F: Like, to be honest, I was about to ask.

C: I mean, I can't think of a time.

S: Yeah, I don't think I have. there's maybe been at least one time where I kind of felt like I did want to, or I wasn't, you know, super comfortable with what I was saying that I was okay with. You know, maybe I wasn't being completely honest with what I was really okay with or how it made me felt.

F: Hi, guys. I just wanted to quickly interupt the conversation to let you know that if you want to hear about that time that Schuyler is referencing when he said he was okay with Cassie doing something that he actually didn't feel super great about, and what happened when Cassie actually went and did that. You can find that little extra clip from this conversation on my Patreon. The link is in the episode description, if you are interested. Okay, let's get back to it.

F: One thing I do want to know is how was the transition from, from women to men, from Cassie dating women or having flings with women to a man, was that more difficult, for you, Schuyler or was it. You didn't feel it any different?

S: maybe, like, in this particular scenario, like, it was kind of like. Like, I want to feel respected, I guess. You know, like she has a man now that she sees, and we're all friends, and, you know, he's a great guy. And, you know, there are boundaries and, you know, we have a relationship, but I guess I just don't want to feel, like, emasculated in any kind of way, know, by someone.

C: but, like, it's not just about, like, it being a man or woman, like, that doesn't have so much to do with it. It's more just about, like, the level of respect that, like.

S: Yeah, I mean, yeah, I felt similar ways about the first, girl that Cassie was with because there was kind of that energy where, like, if she could, she would probably take Cassie and make her her girlfriend, you know.

F: So you felt emasculated by her, too, In a way, yeah, for sure. I see. So is this relationship, the first relationship that you have with a man, Cassie?

C: Yeah, with this man that I have somewhat of a relationship with now. I've actually known him forever. Like, he's from my town. We've known each other for as long as we've been, like, in high school. and he has been. It'really funny because he's been with his partner for 13 years. They're getting married tomorrow.

S: Really?

C: Cool.

F: Oh, wow.

C: But their relationship is so much like ours. Like, they've explored, like, about, like, six years in, like, they started talking about opening up their relationship. He has, like, been non monogamous, but she has been monogamous to him. So I had no idea either, you know, like, until he started posting stuff online. And he's very open with it. No secrets. And I remember seeing some stuff and just being like, oh, my gosh, is he like. Or him and his partner, like, non monogamous? And I remember DMing him and being like, what's up? Tell me about your story. Like, I don't really have anybody else that I know that's in this kind of situation. And I feel like we can learn a lot from each other. We just started chatting on Instagram and talking about relationships, like, just about our experiences, like, how we view sex and relationships differently than it seems. So many other people, and we really connected. And I think after about, like, two months of just, like, really friendly conversation, we both were like, honestly, like, we're both so attractive, like, and we have, like, the same kind of, like, views on everything. I think he mentioned, like, he was like, how would you feel about us, like, playing together or, like, you know, being intimate together? Because, like, I really love our conversations we've had. And, you know, he comes back here often because his family's here and stuff. He lives in, Washington now. So, yeah, so he was like, I'm coming back down there, you know, in, like, a couple months. Like, how would you feel about us hanging out? And, like, no expectations, but, like, if we did want to play together, like, how would you feel about that? So I asked Schuyler you know, and that has been the most rewarding relationship that I've ever had, like, outside of my relationship, because it just feels so right. Like, I know what he's able to give because I know his partner and I respect her. And I almost was like, I really want to make it a mission to get to know her and be her friend, because I want to pick her brain about how she deals with this, because if I'm ever in the position, it would be so nice to be able to talk to another woman and have another female's perspective on it. So we've talked and chatted, and there's just this really beautiful level of respect on all four of our parts, I think. And, yeah, it's just been really beautiful. Like, we both know what we're able to give. There's no expectations of anything more. It's not like we just hang out to like be sexual with each other. Like we're friends, you know, like, and we could hang out and not have sex and that would be totally fine too, you know, like, and we tell each other we love each other, you know, like, I love him and he loves me, but it feels more leaning towards like something polyamorous, which I've always kind of said that I'm not really interested in. Like, I want to be somewhere in the. I don't want a one night stand, but I don't want a full on relationship. I kind of just want something in the middle of that. but he's somebody that feels more like a poly kind of thing, even though we're not like in a relationship.

F: You know, that's, awesome. And I think it really works when the other person also has a partner. That's something that I've also realized. It just balances things out in a very nice way because there's an understanding of like, oh, no, I can't meet that date because my partner, blah, blah, blah, you get it. Because you also have a partner that also has needs and there's kind of like consideration going in all directions. So that's awesome that you found that relationship. I hope that we can interview them for the podcast. I did want to ask because you said, Schuyler that, you have never really said no, but there were a couple of instances where you should have said no. Do you feel like it would be hard for you to say no if you had to, or Cassie, do you ever worry? I mean, you did mention that you worried at the beginning, but that Schuyler is just going to say yes to everything and then there's going to be something that is going to be an issue.

S: I don't really worry about saying no just because, like, I know that that's what she would want me to do. Like, she, she just wants me to be honest. So, that's really all we have to do, you know, is just try and be honest and dig deep and say what we really mean.

C: Yeah, I think I would be disappointed if you told me no, but if he said he wasn't okay with it, I would d be like, okay, fine, you know, we just will drop it for now and revisit it later if it's something that's really important to me. If not, I'm fine with just being like, hey, at this time I can only have like a platonic relationship with you and hopefully you want to still do that?

F: Yeah, for sure. That makes sense. And I think also for listeners out there, it'important to notice that the reason why Schuyler almost always says yes, and I think in Seth's case, also almost always says yes, is because we come at it thinking of their side. So we're not coming in and asking for things that we suspect that might be hurtful to them or that are kind of a stretch. We come with that awareness. So I think that that also helps. Obviously, you can ask for whatever you want, but when you are making an ask, put yourself in the other person's shoes. And that way it's more likely that they're going to say yes, because they'll notice that you are thinking of them, and they'll be like, okay, sure. And you'll have more freedom that way.

C: Yeah. Also, like, I do think a lot that, like, we're different, you know, so Schuyler's going to be okay with some things that I might not be okay with, but, like, I have to remember that, like, if and when the time comes that he wants to do some of the things that I, you know, I have wanted to do that I have to try to, like, have the same kind of grace that he's had. Like, I have to be confident in the words that he says and, like, trust that, you know, he loves me, he's committed to me, and, like, remembering that, like, all those little crazy feelings and things that your mind tells you are just, like, in the moment and in the grand scheme of things, like, we have 13 years of, like, memories and work that, like, we've put into this. And, like, realistically, I don't think anything is really going to threaten that just by him having a good experience. But it will be difficult to be challenged in the ways that I haven't yet been challenged.

F: Yeah, I feel you. I was telling Seth yesterday, I was saying, as much as I want you to have that experience, if it happens, it's going to be hard for me because I've offered him, like, hey, do you want to have a threesome with me and my friend? And gone through the list of friends of potential people, and he's like, no. But, he told me last night, too, he doesn't want to do it with a friend. I don't know. He just feels like that can make things awkward or whatever. But anyhow, all of these say that, he hasn't done it because he feels like, okay, it's too much effort, and I don't feel like I need it. So the day he does it, I'm going to be like, oh, wow, he found someone that was worth the effort. So that means that this must be a very special person. It's not like me that I can date casually. It's going to be someone that's really worth it for him. Right. And that sounds very intimidating. I don't know if you.

C: Oh, I actually hadn't thought of it that way before. And that is a good point.

F: I'm sorry.

C: It'a little scary. Thank you. But yeah, like, I feel that way too. I don't worry so much about Schuyler like, going and having, like, an experience on his own just because of, like, maybe that's naive of me, but what I know of him, like, he really just isn't that way. Like, he doesn't really have, like, a lot of game, you know, like, he's not like that. but I do fully expect that we will have experiences with other people. Like, and he is interested. Like, I feel like if it fell in his lap or if I was like, hey, do you wa want to have a threesome with me and this person? Like, he would pretty much be like, yeah, for sure. But, you know, and I want to make that happen. But that's kind of how I see it happening. You know, obviously it could be different, but I see, like, me kind of being like, a vehicle for those experiences just because I seem to, like, connect with people a lot easier and tend to be a little more social, which that makes me feel really comfortable, honestly, with. With sharing an experience with Schuyler and other people. That doesn't really seem to, like, bother me at all. Like, I don't feel threatened by that. But, you know, having him go out on his own and having experiences by himself and not knowing, because I like to know the details. I like to know everything. Like, Schuyler doesn't really like to know details. Like, he doesn't ask a lot of questions.

F: yeah, that's a good point. I'm glad you brought it up because same with Seth. And yeah, I wonder if that's also Schuyler your coping mechanism. It'like okay, I want Cassie to be free to have fun, but I don't enjoy hearing about her sexual experiences or how much she's into this person. How have you guys handled that?

C: Oh.

S: I mean, just by nature, I guess. I just don't talk a lot, you know, that's probably why I don't ask a lot of questions or. But, I mean, it doesn't, like, in some ways like, it can't be attractive to me, like, to maybe hear an erotic story or something like that. like I said, I just don't ask the questions or really try.

C: Like, sometimes I want to share. I wa. Want to tell him all the crazy things. The very first experience that I had with that girl. Like, I didn't tell him, like, the details of, like, what that experience was, like, until, like, years later, you know, like, but he didn't ask, you know, So I don't want to tell him things that he doesn't want to know. But if he asks, like, I want to tell him everything, you know, and I will tell him everything, but I just kind of wait for him to ask those questions. And, yeah, that is something that we just kind of fell into a little bit naturally. We didn't really make any rules or boundaries around it. I was just like, if he wants to know, he'll ask. And I hope that if I want to know, he'll tell me everything, because I will want to know.

F: I see. Yeah. Well, that makes sense. And as you said, you might be okay with things that he's not okay with, meaning he might not want to hear everything, and you might want to hear everything, and that's fine. I think that's also something that's important for people to remember. It doesn't have to be all equal. as long as everyone needs are met, those needs are going to be different, and that's fine. Tell me, what haven't we covered? What lessons or messages do you want the listeners to know in terms of, your journey?

C: I would just say, like, no matter how hard or awkward it is, like, if you have somebody who is committed to working on a relationship with you, it is always worth it to just be honest and just say the, like, weird and uncomfortable things, you know, like, if they really love you, like, what's the worst that can happen? You know, like, just being open to compromise, you know? it's not always going to be seamless and perfect. Like, you're going to make mistakes. Like, looking back, you know, I've been like, oh, I was so, like, ignorant at that time, you know? Now I would do it differently.

F: Yeah. Can you give us an example of that?

C: Yeah, just, like, obviously, like, making out with that girl, like, before I talked to Schuyler about it, it, you know.

F: Right.

C: Just, like, giving myself something that I have to apologize for. My fear of coming to him and talking to him still exists, you know? I still get nervous when I have to come to him about something. I'm just like, oh my gosh. I feel like I'm always coming to him with some crazy stuff, you know, even coming to in about the podcast. I'm like, hey, so do you to be on this podcast. And he's like, oh my gosh. What? But like, for me, what I realized is that as hard as it is to say those things, like, it's harder not to say them. Like, because I have this internal like, war within myself of like, what am I going to do? Like, I feel this way, but I can't say it. Like, so am I justnna like, let that eat me up or am I going to do something that I'll regret? You know? So like, yeah, like, as hard as it is to say the things, just it's harder not to so. And then just try to do it in the most gentle and respectful way that you can.

F: Yeah. Schuyler what would be your advice to, a, monogamous person dating, a non monogamous person?

S: I would say just to remember that we're all people. We all have our own wants and desires. And those people's desires, it doesn't necessarily have a direct effect on you or how much they feel about you. So just don't take everything so, so personal and don't latch on to those insecurities that you might have because they might, they might just be in your head. Really just talk about it if you're feel insecure about it, because that's the best thing. You know, just tell them where you feel uncomfortable and just really try and have those talks and be honest, you know? but yees, the best thing for any kind of relationship like this, I guess, is just communication and really saying what you mean, figuring out what it is that you really want.

F: Yeah, yeah. I love that you guys were able to just talk things through and kind of take things as they came and not worry so much about not fitting the box of what a relationship should look like. well, that was amazing. I have a thousand more questions, but we've already been recording for a very long time. So, is there anything else that you guys wanted to add before we wrap up?

C: not really, other than just the fact that I really appreciate everything that you do. And, I'm sure you've heard it a million times. I've already told you like five times. But it really did help me. I found a lot of comfort in listening to other people' stories and kind of realizing that this isn't really as crazy as people think. It is. And'it takes a lot of work, but it's worth it. And I don't know if I would really be in the position that I am in now if I hadn't found this podcast and, like, heard a lot of the things that I heard. I learned a lot of vocabulary I didn't know. I, you know, listend to different people's stories and learned a lot from that. And it was just really helpful to me. So I think when I told Schuyler like, I wanted to be on the podcast, he was like, what are we even doing? Like, what are we? I'm like, talking. Like, I know it seems silly, but, like, it can really be helpful. And I just think you're so awesome and thank you.

F: Oh, thank you. Likewise.

S: To you.