Gabrielle: There was a point where I was like, I don't want to share you. I'm in love with you. And it would break my heart to think of you sharing what you have with me with another person. And then when I had some time away to think about it, I realized what it really was was a fear of abandonment. A fear that if Shy has the freedom to be in these other romantic relationships with another person, that that means that he'll find somebody better than me. He'll abandon me. And what I realized is that love is the most abundant resource in the world. So long as I feel loved, so long as I feel desired, so long as I feel respected, so long as I don't feel neglected in any way, why would it be a problem for him to share more of that extra love that has.

Fernanda: Hi, everyone. Welcome to the third and last episode of the Mono Poly mini series. I'm actually starting Polycurious Season 4 in a couple of weeks. I'm aiming to have Polycurious being more consistent, and in order for me to do that, instead of having weekly episodes, I'll be releasing episodes every couple of weeks. So if you haven't subscribed to the podcast, make sure to do so, so you do get notified when new episodes drop. I'm, super excited. I have already recorded a lot of really, really good interviews for this season, and I cannot wait for you to listen to all of those. And I'm excited about today's episode because it actually challenged a lot of the assumptions that I had around Monopoly relationships.

I actually almost called the series Mono Open instead of Monopoly because I had this idea that if you were in this dynamic, you were likely more open than polyamorous, meaning that your openness was more casual, you had less romantic or attached relationships with other people. and that way the monogamous person in the dynamic felt a little bit more comfortable. I also thought that hierarchy was a requirement in a way for this type of relationship. Just because if the monogamous person is not dating and is not seeing other people, knowing that they are the priority when they, the non monogamous person is going out is probably very important. But all of those assumptions were just based on my personal experience. And if you want to listen to my episode with my partner set, you can go back a couple of episodes. It's episode 48 if you want to learn more about that dynamic. But today's couple is totally different. They are, consider themselves non hierarch. Shy who's the polyamorous person in the dynamic considers himself solo poly, their relationship anarchist. And if you are confused as to what all those terms mean, we actually get into an interesting conversation around that today. But my favorite part about today's episode is actually that Gabrielle being the monogamous person actually has a very non monogamous mindset. And even though she resisted Shy polyamory at first, she has come around to the point that not only does she accept it, but she actually appreciates it. Because by Shy being very straightforward and honest about who he is and what he needs, that gave her the space to also be very open and honest about what her desires and her needs are. Even though she hasn't acted on any interest in other people, as you'll come to learn, she realized that she might be interested in relating with women. And if Shy hadn't introduced this polyamory mindset, she probably would have kept herself, as she says, masked and not being really true to who she is. I love this because it's a beautiful example of how you don't need to be non monogamous to be open minded and to meet people where they ad and to be honest and authentic to what you need and have conversations around creating relationships differently and designing your own relationship as opposed to just following a script, right? This is actually one thing that I tend to focus on a lot with my clients is to let go of the script. Sometimes that script is even the non monogamous script of hey, I need to date as much as my partner is dating, for example, so we throw that out. Obviously it's a process, but there's so much freedom and liberation that comes when you just genuly admit to yourself what, your preference and what your desires are.

And how those conflict with your partner and then get creative. So if you find yourself struggling, feeling like you are not understanding your partner, or even as a solo person finding that you're having issues in figuring out this non monogamy thing. You can book a free explorator call by following the link in the episode description and there you will also find a link to my Patreon. On my Patreon I have extra content from the interviews. I do solo episodes where I go deep in certain topics like how to communicate your sexual desires, your relationship energy, what I just spoke about, like what to do when your partner has different desires than you do, etc. If you join the Patreon, you also get to join our community, our support group, and I'd love for you to be part of it. Also, if you want some Free resources. You should follow me at Polycurious Podcast if you haven't already. I have so many videos and posts about all sorts of topics that I'm sure you'll find interesting. Okay, enough from me. Here is my interview with Gabrielle and Shy

Gabrielle and Shy welcome to Polycurious I'm very excited to hear your perspective as a mono poly couple that sounds like has been together on and off for a while now. I think you guys were saying like nine years or so and Shy You are in an interesting dynamic too because not only you are polyamorous, but also you were saying you are solo poly. You'non hierarch. And there's a lot of confusion online about these terms. And I can imagine having a monogamous partner while being solo poly and non herarchical can be a little bit challenging. But, you might be an inspiration. You both might be an inspiration to other couples who have this dynamic. So I would love to start since I don't know you personally. We connected through the mono open WhatsApp group which everyone should join. I will add a link in the show notes for people who want to be part of the group. But since I don't know much of you at all, why don't you tell me a little bit about your background? Like how did you end up where you are today in New York? in a monopoly relationship.

Shy: So I found myself becoming poly solo but shey, and stumbling into the concept of solo poly. and solo poly for me is that you take the relationship with yourself as one of your top priorities and that each other partnership you have is its own entity and can operate by itself and is not on a hierarchical or stepladder, towards some sort of hey, marriage or anything like that. So I will be the first one to be very transparent. I went from monogamous to a cheater to try to figure out being, oh, there is something known as poly And then just going into and going, wait, hold on. this is about relationship building and making this more not just accessible, but a benefit for everyone who's a part of it. so therefore that kind of changed my idea of Polly and how I go about my relationships.

F: Did you have any particular experience that changed that for you?

S: Yeah, therapy.

G: That'll do.

S: Therapy, I'll be honest, is, you know, really reflecting on why do you make relationship decisions? What got you into the relationship? Why did you stay in the relationship? know, and I think before most people go into Poly, they should really, really know themselves. because there's some things I will happily say. I'm going to be like a little kid sometimes. Like, okay, hold on. I'm going to take myself and put myself in the corner and think about this and see why this is making me feel a certain way. And so I can better talk to one of my partners about it. you know, be like, okay, I was feeling ABC at the time. This is my reaction. This is why, you know what, I can try to make it better, you know, and then we can come to that, we can come to that discussion. The relationships stay and can grow as they need within themselves. They can either, you know, prosper or go back and forth. I describe myself as a comment because I do come in, I do have a lot of partners who come in and out of my life. We have a great time, on a topic such as whether it's physical fitness, whether it is, political ideas or education or a variety of different topics in which I find interesting. And then as life is, we tend to fade out into other things. And my partner Gabrielle over here, we share a lot of some of those same interests, you know, but as the years have gone, we go back and forth.

F: Yeah. It sounds like you came to know yourself better and to analyze, okay, why is it that I'm cheating? What is it that I actually need and how can I go from doing. It in an unethical way to do it ethically? So I think that it's great that you were conscious of yourself and of your partners in that process. And thank you for those definitions and for people who might not know, comments are partners that kind of come in and out of your life. I feel like I have a couple of comments. Maybe someone that I met while they were traveling and they don't live here, but maybe I might see them again like two years later because they're visiting or that sort of thing. and I think you describe solo poly wonderfully, so I'm not gonna touch that definition. but yeah. How about you Gabrielle? I know that at this point you are monogamous and sounds like you have been for the duration of your relationship. I'd be curious to hear what your background is like and how you think that that might contribute to your desire to be monogamous with Shy at this moment.

G: I mean, I grew up in a very religious family. I grew up in a rel very similar to Judaism. And there was a lot of emphasis on you know, monogamous partnerships, like help meets, but also a lot of, like, woman being like, subservient to her male partner. And which I've always bucked at. And you know, even. Even in the, the terms of our current relationship, like, I'm monogamous with Shy right now because I have kind of too much stuff going on personally to even pursue other relationships. But what I realized, was that for me, it's more my choice to be u monogamous, at this point is more about what my emotional capacity is, knowing that there is still freedom for me to explore if I want to, which I really enjoy that, I have that option, but also like, knowing because it means I can get my needs meet. Met, however I need to get them met. but it's also nice to have a partner that's consistent in your life. And in this case, for me, it's more about building a strong foundational relationship, before venturing out and, exploring relationships with other people. So as I've gone through my own personal healing journey, my perspective on relationships has also evolved. And I'm also pretty open, like, open to trying and thinking about new things. Like, if you bring me a new concept at first, even if I'm against it, like, I'm always willing to think about it, and I can always change my mind. And. And I'm. I do that quite frequently now, especially as I get older. and so that's how I ended up in this circumstance.

F: Yeah, that makes sense. And it echoes a lot of what the monogamous people that I've interviewed so far say, which is actually many of them do have a, religious upbringing, which there's nothing wrong with acknowledging that that plays apart. That doesn't mean that you have any judgment. As you were saying, like, you're very open to the idea, but you also need to honor, how you feel. And sometimes you feel a certain way because of what you've been taught, and that's fine. You can try to change that, but you can also be okay with the way things are. And that's the case with my partner. His dad is a pastor. He was homeschooled. Right. So for him, opening up would mean a much more drastic change than for me that I grew up talking about sex with my mom and just in a very liberal, liberal family. And the other thing that echoes as well is the, you know, it's not like I'm close to it. Right. Like, most people who are monogamous are open to it. But I just don't feel like I have the bandwidth right now or I want to put my energy there. And it's totally okay for one person to feel that way and for the other person to feel like they do want to use and their energy in that way. I'm curious about another thing you said, which is that you were working on laying the foundation before potentially opening up. Do you both feel like you are still working on that foundation or where are you at in that journey?

G: For me personally, I think that there's. You're like, you're always working on the foundation. I feel like in any like, stable partnership and any long term relationship that you're always working on building the foundation. I, think that right now we are, I think we're in a really good place with learning how to better understand one another and communicate with one another, negotiate conflict with one another. And that's something I haven't had in my life previously. So it's been really important for me to build that practice. so I wouldn't say we're like necessarily at the beginning of that, but right now I'm enjoying being in the like in the position of being able to build on the foundation of the relationship and practice what that looks like, you know, so that should I go into another relationship, I have this, you know, experience under my belt that I can then use to as a guide, you know, for any other relationships going forward, if that answers your question.

F: Yeah, no, it does. Shy we heard you know, Gabrielle's reasons to be monogamous. At this point. I would love to hear your reasons to be non monogamous. I hear that it's because you want to be true to yourself. Right? and you realize that there was a way in which it could be an added benefit to everyone involved. But what is it about yourself that you think makes you want to have relationships with more than one person?

S: Okay, so if I'm really going to break it down, it's caus I'm ADHD. No, no,

G: Sorry.

F: I mean there might be, that might be the truth, working for the truth, whatever that is'm sorry, there's a.

S: There's a, there's an element of truth, but that shouldn't be, you know, the only thing I joke about it very much so. But, well, when it comes down to it, the idea that one partner is to fit everything never sat right with me. I can't be everything for everybody. And every time I've tried, it's failed. It's failed me. and every time I've tried to put something or everything onto one partner, they failed. So growing up with that mentality and then seeing that reality, that's not how it works for me personally. I can find love and affection in different partners. Not all of it has to be sexual, but it is an expression of emotion and love to each other that isn't taking away from whatever other relationships you have. And what I found being monogamous or in monogamous circles that that wasn't quite allowed or there was a certain stigma or moral value placed on to finding comfort in other people that weren't your partner.

F: Yeah, yeah. And that's so toxic because no matter if you're monogamous, I think it's really important for you to be able to connect with other people. And what tends to happen in monogamous culture is that ah, men and women can't be friends. Right. So what I like about being non monogamous is that having that door open to potentially be intimate doesn't mean that we're actually going to be intimate. It just means that we can be very friendly intimately, without having sex in a way that if that option wasn't around it wouldn't be possible. So even if you're monogamous, I think that if you are in a culture like Gabrielle was saying, like she's very open minded. So I'm assuming Gabrielle you're probably aware that it's okay for you to go and hang out with your friends, ah, get your needs met that way as well.

G: That's what I was actually going to say is that the way I practice monogamy is that like I build very close relationships with other people. I don't expect Shy to meet all of my needs. I don't think any one person can. so like I have friends and you know, I'm not romantic with any of them. But again, the thing I really enjoyed the kind of the place I came to with regards to polyamory and my own understanding of it and why I'm more open to it is because I realize that it's about freedom and it's about having the opportunity to get your needs met without putting all of that pressure on one person. You know, it allows for these more unconventional relationships where you don't have to leave a partner because they're not fulfilling a specific need. You can continue to be with that partner because you can still find value in that relationship. There can still be a lot of love and affection and Intimacy in that relationship without it necessarily being like, has to be the end of it. Because maybe, you know, maybe somebody is asexual or, you know, maybe somebody has decided that, you know, anything. You know what I mean? I really love that kind of, that kind of freedom. And when I think about the way that I practice my own monogamy, that's what basically think like, am I really monogamous?

F: Yeah, that's right. Because like, it sounds to me like you are monogamous, but you have a non monogamous mindset. Right. And I feel like you no poly relationships, you kind of have to be like that.

G: Yeah, I mean I. The thing that I really enjoy about our relationship and I mean, this is also part of that personal journey I was talking about was that even before Shy and I reconnected, I was already in the position of building like emotionally intimate relationships with the people in my life, you know, with my friends. People, well, I mean, I guess they would all be friends, you know, because I wasn't engaging with them intimately, like physically intimately, like, like, you know, sexually. So when, when Shy and I first met, we were in a monogamous relationship. And we were in that for like a year and a half.

S: Yeah. Yeah.

G: And then I broke up with him. M and then, we were in like a situationship, a back and forth thing. And around that. That's in the time that Shy started experimenting with polyamory. And again at that time I was a much. Right. And I was a much less open minded person. I was not open minded person back then. And therapy helps.

S: Therapy helps sor those you out in podcast therapy.

G: Therapy.

F: I'm just waiting for better help to come ask me to put ads on the podcast.

S: So better let's get you some sponsorship.

G: Yeah exactly ca because therapy definitely makes a huge, difference. There was a lot of healing I had to do. And even not, you know, he and I had a discussion where, you know, at first I wasn't sure, like there was a point where I was like, I don't want to share you. I'm in love with you. And it would break my heart to think of you sharing what you have with me with another person. And then when I had some time away to think about it, I realized what it really was was a fear of abandonment, of fe fear that like, if Shy has the freedom to be in these other, romantic relationships with another person, that that means that he'll find somebody better than me. He'abandon me, you know, or that I'll be neglected. I experienced a lot of neglect in my childhood and early adulthood years. And there's a fear of being neglected. And what I realized is that him being polyamorous or being. Or rather the kind of the big thing that I realized is that love is the most abundant resource in the world. Like you can give as much love as whatever you have available. Like there's no such thing as like a person that can only give a certain amount of love in a certain way with a certain person. And what I realized is that, you know, for me, so long as I feel loved, so long as I feel desired, so long as I feel respected, so long as I don't feel neglected in any way, why would it be a problem from him to share more of that extra love that has, you know, or pursue a relationship that fits needs that maybe I can't, you know what I'm saying? And also takes pressure off of me to not be everything. Because again, I realize that it's really not healthy to expect your partner, your spouse, whatever, your romantic relationship to be the end all, be all relationship. We need a community. Every human needs community, A supportive network of people so as to not wear one person out and to not like build up resentment when they can't be everything for you. So you know, I see polyamory as an extension of that. And like, again, that's how I practice monogamy. And it's also why I feel like when my capacity opens back up, knowing that I have the freedom to explore those relationships, you know, really gave me a kind of freedom that I never thought that I could explore. You know what I mean? And I feel like it's strengthened by relationship in a lot of ways too.

F: Right. Because even if you don't act on, on being non monogamous, just having that freedom exact feels really good to you because you know that you can be your own person just like you're allowing him to be his own person.NI love that your story is one in which you had some resistance at first and then you eventually understood that your resistance came from fear of abandonment and that love is infinite. I love what you just shared. I'd be curious to hear if you had any particular experiences or how that shift came about. How did you go from that resistance to understanding it for monogamous people out there who might be with someone who wants to be non monogamous. And maybe they don't get it.

G: So what actually happened was Shy had been open to with me about having companionships when we first started dating, he said, you know, I won't be dating you exclusively. And I was okay with that. and I think there was, like, kind of some confusion for me. I'm autistic and also have adhd, so there was. There was a misunderstanding for me when he said companionship. And one of the partnerships he had, they were romantic, you know, and even though they weren't sexual, they were still. There was some physical intimacy. And, like, I didn't know that. So it kind of took me by surprise and was very disregulating for me because, again, it brought up all those triggers. And the. What. What came to me, the reason I had the change of heart, is because I stopped and thought, okay, what's changed from you knowing that he has this other companion that he's romantic with? What changed in your relationship? How has that impacted your relationship before you knowing and after? And the answer was, nothing. Nothing changed. I fel. I felt, you know, loved and cherished. I didn't feel neglect. You know, I felt cared for. Like, I felt like my needs were met. I felt like, you know, this was a really beautiful relationship. And it seemed like if I realized that what the issue really was was those fears and addressing them and making sure that, like, we had an understanding and like, a kind of a contract between one another, that. And this goes both ways, that there's always transparency, there's space for us to process when another partner comes into this picture. But more than anything, neither of us can feel neglected. Neither of us should feel abandoned. And so long as that remained the same, I realized, like, that solves the issue for me. You know what I mean? Like, and. And again, like, the big thing for me was realizing, well, if I'm afraid he's going to leave me for somebody better, you know, then really the issue is with me. Why do I think that that's what'snna happen? Why do I think that? You know, because the whole part of polyamory is that you can be able to keep people in your life and don't have to abandon them in order to bring new people your life. And that's when I was like, wait, hold on.

F: If anything, it's the opposite, right? If anything, like, it's more likely that he could, quote, unquote, abandon you, right? If he didn't have an outland to explore with other people, because he would want. He would feel like he has to break up with you to get that.

G: Exactly. And then that's when I realized the freedom of it. It's when I realized the beauty of it. And that's when I realized, like. And it's also like at that time I started having like, these, insights into my own self of parts of myself that I hadn't explored because of the. The way that I had decided that I was monogamous. M the way that I had like, identified as monogamous for so long that like, I had kind of put aside and compartmentalized parts of myself and allowing in allowing and understanding and being open to Shy being polyamorous and our relationship being more polyamorous. Then I realized it also opened me up, to learning more about myself and things that I might want to explore. And knowing that Shy would be supportive and open, you know, about it, really, really gave me a freedom and a safety that I have never had before. And again, it's why I really feel like it actually, strengthened our relationship.

F: Love M to hear that.

F: In terms of like, the things that you wanted to explore and do, what are some things, how did that actually change in your life?

G: I realized that I've had some same sex of attraction that I never really explored. And so because of that, I realized that, like, there's been times I've been attracted to other women, but because it doesn't happen often, I just thought like, oh, well, because I also find the human form to be very aesthetically beautiful, right? So I find men and women, all people beautiful, you know, and, but like, I realized, like, there's been times, but it's been more than that, you know, And I just kind of like brushed aside and I've literally had, you know, queer friends be like, get real, you gay? Like, no, because I, you know, I believed that I wasn't because again, I didn't really experience attraction to women all that often. but I don't experience attraction to men all that often either. Like, it takes a lot for me to find somebody attractive. Like, I can find you physically attractive and not be attracted to you, you know, and that's more often my experience than the other way. And so, like, when I started thinking about it, I was like, I've never explored that part of myself because, you know, also, like I said, I'm autistic and adhd. And I was just diagnosed, this past fall. So there was a whole lot of masking going on. And so this relationship and these discussions we having also made me realize that I've been masking that part of myself too. And so there's like, been this greater unmasking that's been happening in my life. And polyamory. Exploring polyamory with Shy has definitely allowed that greater part of the unmasking process to begin.

S: I will also add on this is that part of being, at least for me, my poly practice is trying to be as transparent as possible and taking a little bit of the shame away from feelings or ideas or. Because that's what I found. And I experienced a monogamous relationships. Like if I had an attraction or I thought someone was intelligent or something, or I had some sort of interest, there was a shaming of that or how could you. I find it poly. And especially as I try to explore and when I explore partnerships or eventual partners is being as forthright with how you're feeling. and also understanding your own fear. Like as long as you're walking through your world as genuine as possible, you will attract good people to you. And part of poly for me is exploring these partnerships, romantic partnerships, intimate partnerships. And intimate partnerships for me can be very intimately emotional, very intimately physically. And for me it's a learning journey. So my partners always teach me something new about myself, about the world and hopefully I try to do the same for them. And not only that, but there are times where partnerships, you know what, we've reached an impasse. Where it's like, this is where we have to, this is where we're separating because of one or two things. Whether it is our goals are now, now aligned or you know, another partner became more present. You know, it is understanding those fears like was this something that was meant to be longer? What did I enjoy from it? It's understanding that transition. Is this something that we can maintain? And having those check ins.

F: Yeah. Which are even more necessary if you're non hierarch. Right. Because if you're hierarch there's not m that much to discuss because there's no like oh, who are you going? I mean it's a typical example but whose s family are you going for Christmas or whatever. It'you know you're gonna go to your primaryes. It like there's less to discuss there. And I do want to talk about why you chose non hierarchy, what that means for you. I have a lot of conflicting opinions about that in my head. But before that, Gabrielle I'd love to hear, Cause you were talking about realizing that you might have a queer side or a bisexual side. and seeing Shy being open about who he is made you feel more open towards that side. Have you Explored that side yet or is just the openness of and the acceptance that has come into your life?

G: Well, I haven't dated anybody. The way that I've kind of come to it right now is I could totally see myself in a romantic relationship with a woman. and like, I could see that being something that I would want to enjoy, sexually. I don't know so much. I feel like that's. I'm not really there yet. But definitely, like, could be in an emotionally intimate, you know, possibly physically intimate. it's not like, oh, I kiss a woman. Like, no, I would, I would enjoy, like, exploring a romantic dynamic with a woman.

F: And so it's even more about the romantic than it is the physical. O. That's so interesting. Okay.

G: M. I'm not really interested in dating other men. Like, Shy fulfills all the needs I would need from an opposite sex partner. So I don't. I'm not really interested in other men. Not to say that I wouldn't, but I'm just not really interested in that. But definitely, like, you know, with a woman. What's actually been really awesome about our relationship now is that like, I remember, like, the first time I noticed I had a little crush on somebody. Like, calling Shy and telling him about it was actually like, really fun.

F: Yeah.

G: Especially because, like, I realized we have similar taste, we have similar physical tastes. And so like, like something about, like being able to talk to him about it was actually really like, not just freeing, but it was funny. It created a, like an even stronger bond, a different kind of bond between us. Like, it was more of a friendship, you know, and there'an understanding. And so, like, you know, and I mean, even when we were monogamous, like, that was something that we were talking about. Like, you know, if we saw a person like a woman, like, and this is before I even acknowledge, like, any kind of queerness. Like, when we would see a girl that was cute, we would be like, you see her over there? Like, because for me, I'm just very confident in my sexuality. Like, I can see another woman think she's pretty, you know, or love her outfit or think she has a really nice shape or admire her, you know, because both of us are into fitness or admire her physique or whatever. And so we could have conversations like that. We've always been like that. But like now it's like, it's basically like just become even more so. And again, like, that freedom has. Has also, like, it's brought us closer because now we have this Other thing can talk about. You know, just the other day, Shy was like, oh, you know, because he had told me he had been on the apps and he was like, oh, maybe I can show you the people that like, I've been. You talking to her, I think are interesting that I think are cute. And I was like, yeah, sure. And at first he was s. Like, oh, maybe you don't want to like, know that. And I was like, no, actually, like, I do. I really do value the transparency because that actually makes me feel more comfortable that I know kind of what's going on. It's like, you know what I mean? Like, because it's like I'm sharing this with you. I want you to know what's going into my life I'm not hiding it from. From you.

F: Yeah. So even though you're monogamous, you are re. Part of his non monogamous experience.

G: Exactly.

F: And have you guys. I mean, it would sound to me obvious that you want to explore together. have you talked about that?

S: So for me, I like aspects of kitchen, table poly. And for those who don't know what the term means, it means that everybody actually has like, you know, cross board conversations. People know each other's first names and it's kind of like having a big round table of people knowing each other. Gabrielle being monogamous partner, I see how comfortable she is with the capacity she has at the time. I have other poly partners who. Oh, I just tell them and we have conversations about, oh, such and such says hi. Oh, Gabrielle says hi. Or oh, yeah, yeah.

G: Or I'll encourage him to see people. Like if he's in their area and he's like. And he has free time. I'm like, go see her. You know, go hang out. I know you care about this person and, and you've.

F: You've met some of those people.

G: Sounds I haven't met.

S: Not physically. Not physically, but via phone, phone conversations. I'll have fun conversations. While I do enjoy that I'm. I understand my levels of. Well, is there, sexual intim. And when it comes down to it, I like to be focused on one partner at a time. So I don't do the exploration with two partners or three partners. I do like the intimacy of one on one. Not saying that it's an exclusion, but at this time in my life, that's not something. And it took me a little while to look at and m. Be like this. Is that something that brings me joy? Is it something that, you know, what I can try it with a partner, but if it's something that doesn't refill m my cup and provides me a little bit more anxiety, then I got to look at it. And just because I don't like it doesn't mean it's bad. It just means for me, it's just not my flavor.

F: Yeah, no, I love that you know yourself. You know, just like Gabrielle knows herself. I think there's something to be said about that, because people assume that if you're non monogamous, then you probably want to have experiences with more than one person. But there's also something very special about the 101 connection. And it's true that when you add a third or fourth into the dynamic, then it just becomes a little more complicated. And, like, you might not want to be bothered by that, and that's fine. Yeah, you just want to enjoy the 101 connection. So that's good to hear. Okay, let's talk about the non hierarchy.

G: Let's get to it.

F: This hierarchy subject. so, Shy I'd be curious to hear, first of all, what that means to you. We've described solo poly kitchen table, polyamory it. Come, let's go non hierarchy.

S: So for me, not hierarch is that each one of my partnerships or relationships, there isn't one that's placed above the other, like in aspects of importance. I will be honest. It depends on my capacity, where I'm at, on who I can help or who I can be there for at the time, depending on what I'm doing in my life. part of the reason why I go through my world say non hierarch because I have two daughters, I have two kids, I have a career. I love. I love my job, and I love what it does. And off the bat, those are two things right there that take up a lot of my time, then time for myself. And then once all those three things are there, then it's like, okay, who else can really fit into that? And when it comes down to partnerships, it's okay. People like to know where they stand. So as I'm dating and seeing partners, it is, hey, every partner I treat with as much honesty and respect as I can, I give as much time as I can. And part of the reason why I keep it in hier article is because I'm not aiming to. Hey, big picket, white fence, dog to kids. Ah, I know. How can we help each other progress to where we want to be the best person we want to be. And for me that puts a little less, pressure on people.

F: Yeah, that's so interesting. So it's almost like you do have a hierarchy, but not in terms of partners, but your daughters, your work, yourself comes before any partner. So by not telling a partner, hey, you're my primary, basically you are setting expectations of, hey, I'm not going to treat you necessarily like, like a wife or like someone that I'm going to put above all the other things that I have. So it's almost like that sounds, to me a little bit more like relationship anarchy. The sense that you don't adhere to exly practices. Yeah, yeah. You don't adhere to those standards, you know, like, okay, we're getting married and now I have to prioritize. It's more like, okay, let's just have it be a conversation. I'd be curious though, when it comes to your dynamic with Gabrielle, because obviously you've been with her on and off nine years and sounds like the other partners are not as, stable. Wouldn't you say that there's like an inherent hierarchy there? Like, sure, your daughters, your work, yourself come first, but then after sounds to me like Gabrielle comes next.

S: So you would not be completely wrong on that. and that time tends to build an aspect of hierarchy. but that's happened for me several times where you. I might have a stable partner for like two years and because of that time, other partners are coming in. We have already an establishment of, hey, every second Saturday of the month we're going to such and suchual a movie. So therefore, if I get another partner, it's like, okay, hey, you know what? Now, it becomes a negotiation. Hey, I know we have every second Saturday, but this Saturday, such and such, you know, is having an event or wants to go somewhere. do you mind if we move it or is, you know, and is that negotiation? And the reason why is I'm trying to respect the time. The time me and that previous partner or that partner talked through that and scheduled that time. But now I'm having a different conversation because guess what? Dynamics have now changed. And being open and fluidt and understanding how things like that happen. Now, yes, I will say this one, over for me, someone who's there a little bit more time builds a little bit more stability.

F: But it's interesting because it sounds to me like you're saying like o. I say I'm not hierarchical caus I don't wanna disappoint them when I have another partner and Then I have to move plans or whatever it is. But also the other way around happens where they feel like, okay, if you're non hierarical, that means that you are not going to prioritize anyone above me. So if you come to them and you are like, hey, I actually need to change our date because Gabrielle this or that, they might be like, hey, I thought you were non hierarch. Now you seem like you're prioritizing Gabrielle So I'm not sure if you've had any issues with partners that feel deep prioritized or Gabrielle, if you've ever fet de prioritized in that way. Because the reason why I like hierarchy in my personal relationship is because if I had a partner and I said like, hey, I'm non hierarch and then I went and did prioritize someone else, then the other person is like, I thought you were non hierarchical. Anyhow, I'll let you respond because I put a lot of thoughts in there.

S: But so I have had to have some of those conversations about, you know, who's hierarch or not because of shifting plans. And if someone's need comes up, like if someone's upset or I am going to try to make a judgment call on which one am I going for. I try to also do the aftercare of whatever partner was, for lack of better term, neglected to come back and be like, hey, blah, blah, blah, you know, And I personally try to let my partners know that, hey, they're all people too. So therefore there's a genuine concern about the other partners. Because what I like to say is, hey, my other partners teach me about me and how to be better partners to my partner. So if one of my partners is going through something and I have to go, hey, I'm going to help her with this, this and this. My partner, who I have the plans with, hopefully, I'm hoping this is ideal, can understand it and be like, okay, well know what? Come to me afterwards and we can talk about it. Doesn't always happen. it is dicey sometimes. But I will say talking and having those conversations, red flag conversations beforehand helps alleviate some of those problems going down the line, like hey, is this a red flag for you? If that's a red flag, at the end of the day, we all have to help each other through this life. And sometimes you just need someone and if that person is with somebody at the time, it's like, hey, someone has a need and I'm going to go help. And it's important for my partners to understand that.

F: You know, it's so interesting because again, I think it comes down to definition. If I said I'm non hierarchical, to me that actually communicates that I'm going to be more available. But I think for you saying I'm not hierarch communicates, hey, I might not be available sometimes. So, you know, it's just. That's why I wanted to talk about this because it's all everyone'different Everyone has different definitions of what it actually means. but I think we're in agreement that what's important is that there are conversations about everyone needs. Whether you consider yourself harch car or not. How about you, Gabrielle?

G: So when Shy and I first started dating again, he was very open with me about like his wanting to practice relationship anarchy. And I already knew about his children and everything like that. And I always expected those to his two children to be his top priority. And I know and he's just been very transparent about his priorities in life. And I think the, like, it's all about communication, right? Like it's always about having conversations, to manage expectations. I'm all about tell me what you want so that we can make sure that we're in alignment so I can manage my expectations. And I think that, you know, we have just been really continue to solidify that in our relationship. Like, for example, like if, say there's a friend who needs Shy's attention because they're going through something. But Shy and I have plans, like existing plans. Like, he knows that he can tell me like, hey, such and such is going through something or hey, this is the thing that I want to do and I'm going to do. But I'm going to tell you in advance because especially again, part of understanding that we're both neurodivergent, there's a particular, like, for me being autistic, like I really need predictability to feel safe and m so and that also means that like I have a hard time with like, plans that I have like set in my brain are going to happen, being changed at the last minute. And so we have an understanding that like, if something comes out you really want to do, I'm not going to say like, you can't do it. You know what I mean? And it's more or like, if somebody's really in need, I'm going to say like, no, we have standing plans. Like, it's all about understanding like the needs of the people in his life. And also like, I don't mind plans changing, so long as it'like. I know that you're considering how it impacts me. And I think that that allows for me to be comfortable with him needing to shift things for other people in his life or for plans that are important to him that may clash with something we're doing. Because there's an understanding that, like, I respect you, like you said, and I respect your time, so. And I respect our relationship. So I'm gonna always communicate with you what's going on when I know. The understanding for me is that, yeah, there'renna be partners in his life that maybe he needs to do something for. Like, he's had partners. He's helping with, cleaning or moving, you know, or, like, transporting cards and stuff. Yeah. You know, and I'm okay with that because I came into. He came in. When I came back in his life, he was very open and transparent about what his life looked like, you know, and where his priorities were. And so then it was up to me to decide if that align with what I got going on in my life, if that was acceptable for me. And because of that openness and that transparency, it allows me to decide, okay, this is something I want to get into. And then also that there's space for that to evolve and change. Like, everything can always be modtified with the conversation. And because that's, like, where the foundation of our relationship is, in communication and talking to one another. And that transparency and that safety, we build a lot of safety with one another. There's always space to renegotiate. There's always space to talk about if I'm feeling like my needs aren't being met, that it's always about us trying to find common ground. Where can we make the compromises that work best for our relationship?

F: Yeah. So you. You don't necessarily feel the prioritized it.

G: Sounds, because, you know, he was very transparent in the beginning. And also, I think if you're a parent, your children should come first. So, like, for sure, that already aligns with my personal beliefs. So.

F: Yeah. And how about, you, Gabrielle do you want to have kids? Do you see yourself getting married or. I know that the concept of relationship anarchy is not to follow. And also solo poly, it's not to follow their relationship escalator. So you've made that clear. But I'm still curious, like, after being two together for nine years, and you, Gabrielle being monogamous, where do you stand when it comes to marriage and children and all of those things?

G: I told Shy And I'm still about, like, I'm very ambivalent about having kids. Like, if, like, Shy says he doesn't want any more kids, and I respect that. And I had already told him, like, it already in my mind was a thing that if I was going to have children, it wasnna be Shy So if he's not gonna have kids, then I'm not gonna have kids. And I'm. I'm, like, fine with that. It's not a huge deal to me one way or the other. And then with regards to marriage, I don't know. There was a time where I used to feel like it was really important just because I feel like that's what society told us. And again, that was my mas, you know, self. Like, oh, yeah, I need, like, to get married, because that means I'm worthy and I'm gonna have somebody in my life who's not going to leave me. And recognizing that, that was the kind of motivation makes me feel like, yeah, I don't. I don't necessarily need that to feel like I will be, with somebody who's not gonna abandon me.

F: Yeah. Do you guys live together?

G: No.

F: Okay, how about that? Do you want to live together, or are you also okay being in your separate spaces?

S: Okay, so for my pov, we've, spoken about cohabitation. I've cohabitated and nesting partners. I'm opposed because I just like having my own space to be able to go to. To decompress. and that I can control. I also.

F: Do you live with your kids?

S: No, no, I live by myself. So therefore, I have my kids coming in whenever. And kids are messy. Kids are messy. And if my kid decides to take a marker to a wall, she's three and a half. I. For my own mentality and my own sanctity of mine, I don'want. To have to come in and answer to somebody, oh, why did you leave? No, no, I come in. My kid marked up my wall. I look at my wall, I take a photo, I say, it's art. And I painted again.

G: Yes.

F: Okay, hold on, because I do have to ask about this. So, your kid is three and a half. So you had your kid. You have two kids? Three and a half on the other one.

S: The other one is 12.

F: 12, right. So you had one before meeting Gabrielle and one after. Tell me about that. How was the process of you having a kid with someone else while you were dating Gabrielle?

S: So that was during the time in which me and Gabrielle were not talking. We were both doing, a little bit more exploration of self.

F: so you broke up for how long?

G: Four years.

S: Four years, so.

F: Oh, I see. So you broke up for four years and that time you met someone, had a kid, and then broke up with the person that you had a kid.

G: With, they were already like in a relationship, so.

F: Oh yeah. Wow. We need another podcast.

S: See, when I said that growing paint therapy.

G: Lots of therapy.

S: Therapy and growing painses gets you to messing up, fixing it, figuring it out, messing upah going to therapy, seeing why you messed it up, coming back, apologizing for your f*** ups, trying to do better.

G: Yes.

S: So yes, it was complicated. and that's why I've kind of landed on the. I like having my own space now.

G: Because of that I'd be open to cohabitation and but I feel like definitely before that would happen, there'd be a lot of conversations about, you know, what Shy needs, what I need and how we could both make sure those needs are met, where we can compromise, where, you know, where it needs to be set in stone, where those boundaries are. and that's just kind of how our relationship has been this time around anyway. It's been a lot about where do we align and how does it fit into our lifestyle. Because just like Shy like I have to put my own needs first, I don't put his needs before mine, you know, and. I feel like that allows me to be a better partner because I'm, you know, when my own needs are taken care of, that means that my cup is full and I'm able to share the overflow with him.

F: So as we start to wrap up. So Gabrielle already shared a little bit kind of of her process in accepting being polyamorous and now even sounds like liking that and cheriaging that and encouraging that. I'd be curious Shy as the poly person in the polymonodynamic, what advice do you have for people who might want to be sensitive towards their monogamous partner but also honor their true self?

S: I would say as a poly person who is dating someone who is. Is primarily monogamous. Those are hard and difficult waters. They are. Being transparent is helpful. Also being secure with yourself and that being poly, for me aligns you to be able to go, okay, I see that that's how you feel. but sometimes I feel, and people might call me wrong, that sometimes people who are poly sometimes feel like, oh well, I talk through all this or therefore I'm A little higher. And no, we're all scared. We all need to talk. We all need to grapple with old demons. And just because you might be a little further on your journey because your poly, doesn't mean the monogamous person isn't. And it's finding people who might be monogamous who are at least open to accepting. And if they're open to accepting and their fears being addressed, it's easier. And it's really, truly addressing those fears. Because a lot of monogamy is a fear, a fear of whether abandonment, a fear of leaving, a fear of financial. And once you can address some of those fears, I think it becomes a lot easier.

F: Right. Because it's not like you have fears, you have insecurities. Well, too bad. I'm evolved. And poly And by right, like, it's like, okay, I'm poly. This is an important part of my identity. But hey, I totally understand why this would be difficult for you. Let me sit with you, work through those feelings together. Let me stand by you. Let me make you feel validated and understood and seen and held when you go through those feelings. So then the monogamous person can hopefully come to the other side like Gabrielle did. But I think it's also important to know that not everyone will come to the other side. And that also doesn't make them less evolved either. Like, if that person realizes, hey, I'm not only monogamous, but I can't be with someone who isn't monogamous with me, that's also okay. And if that means that, then you have to make the hard choice of deciding whether to be poly or not. Either choice is valid. Deciding to be monogamous because your partner can't handle you being poly, it's an okay choice. Also, deciding to break up with your partner is an okay choice.

S: This is something else I would add. I identify myself as poly even if I'm just dating or have one partner, I am poly Just because, you know, if I'm dating someone who's monogamous and through life, hey, you're my only partner right now. Doesn't mean I'm no longer poly. I am polyamorous.

F: Yeah, for you it's an identity, but for some other people it's a preference.

S: Exactly. So. And making those distinctions helps your partner understand where you are. Because for me, it's about the love part about, it's not just necessarily about the sexual, the sexual intimacy, but it's about the intimate connections. and you know, as someone who's poly. I would say, hey, if you can give that to them, your monogamous, partner, hopefully they can align to it and see the joy in it. And also if not, hey, you can have those conversations and go your separate ways.

F: Thank you for sharing that. How about you, Gabrielle? Any parting words of wisdom for monogamous people in a monopoly relationship?

G: I, would say, just like Shy said, it's important to know who you are. And sometimes you may not know that when you first get into the relationship, whether or not you're a monogamous person that is comfortable being with a polyamorous person or you're a monogamous person that needs to be with another monogamous person. I mean, because before this I probably would I said I was a monogamous person that wants to be and needs to be with another monogamous postone m. But, I think that there'needs to be just a lot of openness and transparency. The thing that made it possible for me to come to the understanding that I did was one own my own openness, but also Shy's transparency. He's been very clear about who he is, and what his you, what his goals are, what his priorities are from the beginning. And so then it gives me, and especially as an autistic person that needs things to be very like, literal and clear. That was very helpful for me. Knowing where I stood lets me know where he stands, lets me know, what reasonable, expectations would look like in the relationship. And also, like, allows me to think for myself because he already had that figured out. I was like, okay, well what about me? You know? And I think just like, the constant willingness to self reflect is very important. I think again, open dialogue, open communication, transparency on both sides and also having a really good awareness of your own, like, hang ups and fears and you know, like Shy said, you know, being willing to give, like aftercare, being willing to, you know, reassure and validate people's feelings and also having an understanding of what is worth it. Like, for me, the reason that Shy's been in the mil of m my life for so long is because Shy has always expanded my world. I always, he's always been a catalyst of growth with me for some way, in some way. And so even approaching this, like, you know, when he first told me about polyamory years ago, I was kind of like, no, you just want to cheat. Like, like you, I didn't understand. But this time around, you know, he made it very clear he was polyamorous and by that point I had done my own work. And so I had a lot more openness and understanding. Also because of me being an artist and identifying as an artist, even if I'm not always pursuing art, really helped me better understand and have a lot more compassion and empathy for his position that like, regardless of whether or not I am practicing it, I am this, this is who I am, you know. And so I think that more than anything, knowing the value of his, like, what he's been in my life, because I know that he's always been, you know, a catalyst for growth for me. That's always going to be front of mind when I'm thinking about, okay, what, like, what do I need in this relationship? Is this something I can do? And I think always being open to, like, there being changes, you know, is going to be absolutely necessary because obviously, like, if you've never been in, a poly mono relationship before, you don't know how it goes. You don't know what you're going to be comfortable with. So always being open to conversation, always being open to change, always being open to accepting that maybe things aren't going to work or figuring out what the compromises that best fit in, align with your life is. so at the end of the day, it's all about communication, it's all about transparency, it's all about knowing yourself, and it's all about being open to change.

F: Yeah, I think that that's a great way to end the conversation. I really appreciate you both for sharing. I think that, as you said, it's a lot of work, but it's worth it because sounds like you both feel very fulfilled where you're at and very true to who you are. So thank you for sharing all that.

S: Well, thank you very much, for this time.

G: Thank you for having us.