Ellie: I pointedly would say, like, what would you do if, you know, you got a picture and it was of me sucking off your best friend? And he was like, oh, I don't know. And what I'd fear most is that I would lose my best friend. And then I think there was a day where you shared. You saw how much frustration I was having trying to find a friends with benefits. And I said, if only we could find someone like matches who we trust that much already to invite into our dynamic that we both went, okay, yeah, maybe we need. We'll give this a try. Me? Yeah, I'll give it a try. And then he were very turned on in the end.

Cole: Yes, I was. But it was a bit of a blindside. It was a bit of, a Check this out. And, Oh, so we went there, did we?

Fernanda: Hi, everyone. Welcome to the fourth season of Polycurious. I cannot believe it's been four years since I started started the podcast. If you are new, my name is Fernanda, or Fer for short, and I interview people in alternative relationships, basically. And today I'm, super excited because I had never actually covered this topic, which is hotwifing. I'm talking to Ellie and Cole, a couple in their late 40s, early 50s. Ellie has a podcast called Talking Kink with Alex and Ellie. So I will make sure to include that link in the episode description if you want to check it out. I had actually thought I would interview Ellie and Cole for the Mono Poli minise series that I released right before this episode, which you should definitely check out if you haven't. Basically Monopoly, meaning one person in the partnership is monogamous and the other one is polmorous or open. And in their case, they have actually played together in the past. That dynamic wasn't really working for them and they have settled into a dynamic where Ellie is the one that plays with people. She sends pictures and videos to call, obviously with consent of everyone involved. And that's how they allowed that energy to fit into their relationship. And actually, one of the people that Ellie has sex with is Cole's best friend. So today we're going to talk about how that happened, the conversations they had to have around that, the different things they experimented with, and how they see the evolution of their friendship with this person into friends, with benefits that Ellie plays with from time to time. Having sex with your friends or having your friends have sex with your partner is not actually always as messy as it sounds. I know those situations can get messy, but sometimes it's fine. And having sex just takes a relationship to a more intimate level and actually doesn't make things awkward. I was particularly excited about this interview because I feel like a lot of guys have a hard time finding partners. We as women have our own set of issues when it comes to dating, of course, but it's no secret that it's a lot easier to get laid as a, heterosexual woman. So I just thought this couple was a great example of how even if one partner in their relationship is not having sex with other people, you can still bring that energy back in. Right. If you're lucky enough to have that kink of actually getting turned on by thinking about your partner being with other people, imagine how cool to be able to enjoy that through videos, photos, and also enjoy your partner coming back to you. And in this episode, we'll talk about how they're both participating in the dynamic and they're both benefiting from non monogamy. Not everyone has that kink. Unfortunately. A lot of people do get jealous and don't want to see pictures and videos. But there's middle ground, right? Like there's hearing about it without even talking about it, looking at it. You can still intentionally bring that energy back into your relationship.

Okay, guys, let's do this. This is my interview with Ellie and Cole. Well, Ellie and Cole, welcome to Polycurious. Great to have you here. And we actually haven't had that many episodes that touch on king and touch on the things that we're going to talk about today. So I'm very excited to hear your perspective and learn more about your relationship.

E: Thank you for having us.

C: Yes, thank you for having us.

F: Awesome. So why don't we start from the beginning? I know you guys have been together for a long time, right? You are married how many years?

C: 26 years. This year.

F: Wow. 26 years. Awesome. And you're joining us from Canada and we actually connected through Instagram, because I posted something about my mono open relationship and you mentioned that you felt identified. So actually maybe we can start there a little bit. Why don't you tell us how you would describe your relationship dynamic, why you felt like the term mon open applied to you and kind of where you are at today.

E: The, relationship has definitely evolved over those 26 years together. 33 years. And I think as it's evolved, we realized that, you know, we don't really like labels. We like just finding something that fits for us and we've tried on a few different labels. And then when I saw your post and saw Monopoly I thought, you know, we definitely welcome other people into our dynamic, which makes us poly. And the word mono to me had two different meanings. And so I turned to Cole and I said, you know, do you think this applies to us? Because we were monogamous in emotion to each other and we are monogamous usually to only one playmate at a time. So we called ourselves monogamish at that time. But then another layer was that Cole chooses not to play right now. Cole is monogamous to me at this time. And yeah, the term just really jumped out at me and so I thought we could discuss it more with you.

F: Yeah, did you want to add anything?

C: Well, I'm not online looking up too many things with labels, whatnot. So for me it was always just a stag vixen relationship. I have a hot wife and I never really went beyond that in far as labels or anything or examining it further than that. So, for me it was always just, I have a hot wife, I don't play right now. And I like an open, an open mindset to not be, say I'm this, this and this and that's all I am, or she's this, this and this and that's all she is. So that's how I see it personally.

F: Right. Labels don't always get the full picture. Right. They can be helpful as a reference, but don't get all the details. So I'm glad that we have the time to actually explore what that actually means to you. But before we go there, just for listeners, so a, hotwife, and please correct me if my definition is off, but a hotwife dynamic is one in which the wife plays with other people and then the husband is turned on by hearing about those directions or watching or even sometimes being involved. Which I know in the past that has been the case for you, but not so much now. So I'd be curious to hear how you got into that. How did you guys realize that that was something that you like? Did you start off non monogamous or how did you discover this world?

C: My side of it was when we got back together after our separation, we separated to live life away from each other a bit because we had been high school sweethearts and I was very curious about what had gone on during our separation for her in a non negative way. I found it aroused me to hear about what had she had gotten up to. That's how it started for me.

E: Yeah. So I always kind of described it as we started off very kink minded that the More like a hot past fetish some people call it when you talk about past or previous experiences and your spouse or your partner gets really aroused and turned on from it. And I was surprised at his reaction and he turned to me and he said like, would you like to get into the lifestyle? Because this was a, ah, way that we could spice up things as we reent enter our marriage again. And that was, we were barely married like five years I think, when we took a little separation and then reconciled. and so we were just constantly looking for ways to one, grow closer, but two, definitely keep it fresh and spicy. And so from a kink minded perspective, way back then to now, what is to us a polyamorous foundation to our marriage, I guess is something that, you know, we've grappled with. We're not actually sure how to describe it.

F: So why did you decide to separate and then get back together?

E: Well, as Cole said, we were high school sweethearts, so we were very young, very immature, very inexperienced virgins to each other. We had a young child. and we decided that we were just gonna part for little ways and really find ourselves and grow a little. And we gave each other that space with a wonderful friendship as the foundation. So it didn't really surprise us when we reconciled and we reconciled stronger, more mature, you know, more focused on the marriage. Like our reconciliation. We never talked about what happened dating wise, sexual wise in that break. That was each other's business, that was private. And it was about, yeah, nine years that we had been reconciled and back together. All of a sudden it was one of those nighttime conversations where I can't even remember who it was that brought it up and said like, oh, it was me. You remember that part?

C: I didn't even bring it up for a long, long time. It took a long time for me to have the courage to even broach the subject at all.

E: And he just said like, how many people did you date while we were separated? You know, what did you get up to?

F: M. And what was the part that aroused you? What? If you don't mind sharing.

C: No, I don't mind. I would probably say it was a rawk curiosity at first. The arousal came after and I would say it was more of a shock that I was aroused by it and wanted to know more about it after. I've always, I've written short stories for a long time. I've always had a very sexualized mind. So curiosity has always been big part of my life with what goes on around I'm one of those people that looks at someone in the mall and makes up a story about them, what they get up to.

F: Or what you could get up to with them.

E: Yeah. And honestly, I think the shock was he was surprised what I got up to. Well, he didn't think his little wife and mother of one at that time would actually make a bucket fuckt list and seek out fantasies and kinks the way I did and had the encounters I did. I didn't have any real relationships in those two years at all. And that just made him want to know even more and then become involved in something like that.

F: Right. So the bucket fuck it list. I love it.

E: That's what I said.

F: Basically. I, Because say I listened to your podcast and you mentioned this list of people that you wanted to fuck and sounds like also fantasies that you wanted to fulfill. So you break up for two years and then don't talk about what happened in that time. Ten years later the topic comes up and you find yourself feeling aroused and you find yourself surprised about that. Did you feel jealous as well or was it just a arousal? Because I've heard from people that you can feel both. Right. Like you can feel jealous and aroused at the same time. And I think that can be confusing to some. But I don't know if that was your experience with me.

C: there was definitely some jealousy, but it wasn't anger jealousy. It was definitely envy jealousy. None, of that. I didn't hold her anything against her for any of it. It was more of a O. That's hot. Wish I had done that.

F: How did you go from realizing oh'm turned on about Ellie having experiences with others to actually having your first experience together. If I understand correctly, that was your entry, right? Like first you were playing together and eventually now it's just Elie.

C: I think with me it was that age old. You can think about it for so long, but eventually you have to take the next step. And as I asked questions and I got the answers, that was all well and fine. And then my curiosity or my inner desire to no more turned into me wanting her to play and tell me about it.

E: And we did it in many different ways. Right. Like at first we thought, okay, let's do the protective, surround each other type where you do it together. And so we looked for couples to play with and we thought of swinging, swapping, you know, where we were always going to be in the same room or in adjoining suites and we would have these additional partners. But we'd always be around. And that didn't work for us.

C: No, that didn't work for us.

E: One, it was hard to find couples where there was that four way attraction and four way trust. and two, we started realizing that we're actually very both different in our sexual desires and the kinks and the fantasies that we were wanting, they were different. And so then we thought okay, well maybe we should find partners just for each other. And I think what really brought it on was, wasn't it when you were working out of town, wasn't that kind of the very first entry into it? And it kind of was you were gone for 21 7.

C: Yes, yes, no, that is correct. But that was still of just her telling me what happened. it progressed to me seeing a bit later than that. But yes, it was when I was working out of town because it worked out perfectly well. I wasn't there, I was working up north. So it made for a nice perfect storm. She could go off play, tell me about it. And that fed my own kinks.

E: I think that is where I do remember you experiencing jealousy. I had the one hotel encounter. So it was meeting my need of having sex while he was out of town. But it was also meeting a kink that I wanted to have this encounter in a hotel. And I wanted it to feel like a tryst and very, you know, sneaky. And And you called during the one encounter, the one of the very first ones and you were like hey, I can't do this. Like I, I think that was jealousy that kind of rose up or it was that he were too far away. How do you remember that?

C: I think it was. There was probably jealousy there but I think it was that I felt helpless should something happen. I'm a two hour flight away. I'm on 10 hour, 15 hour drive away. There is definitely some, some jealousy but I think the jealousy was fed more from feeling of helplessness and no control. And through it all El has been very good about making sure I don't feel like I have no control in it that I. It's been important to me never to feel like pardon the term but a simp in the corner.

E: Y. He's never identified as a cuck. And that's when I think when you did come home from that work term, you took on a partner. And the partner, the purpose of that one was he wanted someone who would go get into the anal kink. An anal sex, anal play that I was not ready for at that time. At all. And so we found someone that he could trust and that he could explore that with.

F: I'm just curious, going back to the story when he called and he was like, I can't do this in the middle of you having this encounter. First encount or one of the first sounds like, what did you do? Did you stop? Did you Yeah. You stopped it.

E: Oh yeah. Honest communication right from the get go. So I had my phone ready and available. I was always ready to. Or I was prepared to take pictures and be in communication with him kind of before and after. So my phone was there and I could hear it vibrating. And when I read the text and saw I could hear the panic in his voice. I called him immediately. I excused myself, went into the other room, called him and he's like, I can't do this, not right now, not with me out of town. Please stop. And so I just turned to the gentleman, I said, it's been very nice, but I have to go, there's been an emergency, I must leave. And the guy said, okay, thanks. Take care.

F: Okay. So you didn't even get there. You were just starting to getust starting.

E: Yeah.

C: In my defense, that's the only date or evening I've kiboshed.

F: Yeah. No, and I think that it's important that everyone feels good about it. Right. Because if you had gone forward with it, there would have been a breachge of trust and then it would have been harder to ever do it again. Right. So that's why I always tell people better to go slow. You're gonna go faster if you actually stop when you need to stop. Because if you do something that you actually didn't want to, then you're gonna have be a little bit traumatized by it and not want to try it again. So I'm glad that you guys decided not to. so I think it was, it was good overall. And look at you now. Right?

E: Yeah. It's interesting, when we used the word hall pass back then, we gave each other hall passes to find a partner for a specific kink. And I think that was at the point in time. So like maybe would that have been eight or nine years ago then? That we, were trying to find individual partners and it was like a hundred to one ratio. Like for every hundred men I chatted with, Cole chatted with one or two. Like it wasn't like he had variety and options the way I did. And it really started feeling and looking lopsided to us.

C: Yeah, I would agree with that. I Think Ellie's a, description of I'm. Not that she isn't picky, but the fact that I am only chatting or did only chat with one or two people, the numbers game dictated that I wasn't going to find someone that I clicked with. And I need to click with them on a level outside of sexual as well. we've had actually a few debates or chats about it where we've talked about, like I've said, if I'm gonna be with a woman and I find out she has a certain belief system, then I can't do anything with her. I just. That's all I'll think about. So to find someone I was attracted to physically, to find someone that I wanted to be around for even only an hour and have it us work on making that happen was just too difficult. That coupled with the fact that I'm. I have a lot of performance anxiety and that led to a lot of issues. And the truth is I am very aroused and very happy just with her playing. It's not as I'm not a, well, you got to do it, I get to do it mentality.

E: Yeah, I'm definitely more the extrovert and he's the introvert. I'm definitely more social. He is the stay home, homebody type of guy. And I definitely saw him in the process getting very frustrated at what we called at the time the hunt. The hunt for this other playmate, this hunt for another partner. and he just would shut down all his dating profiles. He would just shut down his accounts and say, why bother?

F: Yeah, it can be tough.

C: Yes. And it was, yeah, I only ended up chatting with one person and Ellie chatted with her and her husband as well. And she ended up just being a polar opposite completely of what I was looking for and end up being a headache where I'm explaining myself to her and it's like, yeah, this isn't goingna work out. Oh, so you don't like me anymore? O. Okay. Yeah, we can't go here. I'm. This isn't happening.

E: And the more he told me about it, it revealed to me how much more almost emotionally invested he was and why he was experiencing that frustration. Where for me, I was looking at it more from almost like, ah, a kinky, recreational side of things. I don't get emotionally invested. I want trust, I want respect, but there isn't deeper emotions at all for me. And I was seeing that he was getting really hurt beyond the frustration and that he wasn't wanting any of that.

F: M. That's so interesting because the stereotype is that, women care about the romantic connection and men just want to fuck. Right. And I've seen that, but I've also seen the opposite. Right. I feel like there are women like you, Ann Iie, that are just like, we can have sex and we can like not feel attachment. And I don't know how your experience was, but at least for me, I feel like at first I felt more of that. I felt more of the attachment, and the infatuation and the feelings and then they would fade away. And then after a few times, it took me a few times, like a handful of times to really realize, okay, I don't need to take this too seriously. Like, it'll go away. It's just normal to kind of have those associations. But what was your experience, El? Did you never feel that or was it different?

E: No. And a lot of people don't believe me when I say that, but I think when I go into something with my intention is sex. My intention is to explore a kink or fetish with someone. I put up a boundary and I, I respect that boundary. And for me it's that all my emotions of love and caring and attachment, I am monogamous, that is to my husband, to my spouse.

F: For you, it's not about the romantic aspect at all. It really is about the sex.

E: Yeah. Until just before the pandemic. Just before the pandemic, we decided to, stop being frustrated with the hunt for partners. They ended up all being like one night stands and booty calls. And it was evolving for us. And so all of a sudden we were using the words friends with benefits, where we wanted someone that we could hang out with, we could go anywhere, do anything with, and that the sex would be the benefit of it. But we wanted that deep friendship. So some people were like, oh, so you love the person? And we're like, no, we're just friends. There was more of just a care. And so we took on our best friend of 32 years, a friends with benefits, all through the pandemic, like almost what, four years, where our friendship is at the base of it. But there is second sex and kink in there as well. There's been some threesomems and But I will say very confidently that no, I do not love. I do not feel attached to that person at all, other than like a good friend. I don't want to see them leave our life either.

F: That's very much my approach as well. I'M not as interested in a one night stand or to have sex with someone who's incredibly hot. But I have no common ground with besides sex. I like to like the people I have sex with and to feel like, okay, these are people that I would want to hang out even if we didn't have sex and then have sex. But again, I think a lot of people have a hard time with that. It's like, if I like this person and I like the sex we're having, why are we not in a romantic relationship? Like, where is that line drawn? Right, and I'm curious if you've ever had people that maybe wanted that with you and you didn't. I guess the boundary is clear also because you are married, right? And that makes it a little bit easier. But in my experience, I've also had some people that maybe wanted more a romantic aspect to our relationship. And I was very like, noe just friends with benefits, you know?

E: Well, I. We talk about it a lot, and I wondered if it's just I haven't met that right person yet, you know, I haven't in the last five to eight years that we've been really open and polyamorous. Everybody that I've ever crossed paths with, has been the total opposite. They've been in it for the sex. They wanted to get their dick wet, and then they left. It was actually hard for me to progress into a friends with benefits because they weren't interested in going to a kink event with me. They weren't interested in, you know, taking me to an erotic art show. Things that Cole doesn't really want to do. He's the introvert who wants to stay home. And he's not into burlesque and drag and everything that I am. So he's like, please find someone else that you can go to these events with. And that's when I turn to him just within the last two years, and I said, are we polyamorous? Like, does this definition fit us? And he's like, well, it sure feels like it. Because it's not where we began, just kink minded. It's definitely evolving. And I think I like that. Polyamory leaves a room for spectrum of what love is. It's not black and white. It's not an all or nothing. I think it's when you have a, a connection with someone and you care about them and you don't want anything to happen to them. You don't want them to ever be hurt that's amorous. You care about them.

F: You know, that's where definitions get interesting, because, again, my definition of polyamory is not friends with benefits, which sounds like yours is. My definition is my boyfriend and my husband. You know, like having two partners. but, yeah, I guess now that I think about it, I think that saying I'm polyamorous signifies to people that you are not just in for, but you also want that friendship. But I really do think that it's, like, how you see it, because in practice, for example, I have someone that I've been seeing. He doesn't live here, so we've been seeing each other on and off, and we're friends with benefits. Right. So I guess some people might say, oh, I'm poly, or we're partners, but I've never quite felt comfortable using those terms, even though I've dated people in the past that have used those terms with me. Like, they've called me their partner, and I've had to be like, no, that's not how I see myself. But, at the end of the day, some people would call what we have partnership. Right. It's really like how you decide to name it, but it can mean different things for different people.

E: Oh, yeah. Other people have jumped in and said, like, that his friend is just as much like a husband. You know, he's always over here. He's fixing things. When Cole had to live away, for his work, he was gone 14 months. his best friend was here all the time. He was here having meals with us, you know, going out to a movie with me, having me over, you know. So to a lot of other people, it was like, well, who are you married to? You know, which one are you married to? And it's like, that's when we thought, okay, we are polyamorous. We're just. He's. I'm not calling him my boyfriend. one. Because I don't feel 15. I would never use the term at 49, the word boyfriend. I like partner or friend. And that. That's what feels comfortable to me.

F: Right. Well, it does sound, like that's more polyamorous. Right. also because of the frequency, the intimacy and I actually do want to hear more about that because I heard his voice, actually, the friend that you're referring to, because you brought him into an episode of your podcast, which I will link in the show notes for people who want to hear his voice as well. Yeah, of course. and I was just. I mean, you talked about it a little bit in the episode, but I Was just fascinated by the details of how this came about. Right. Because sounds like my understanding is he was coming over quite a bit. Cole was away, so he was helping you with a renovation, but who had the idea of crossing that bridge? And how did you have that conversation?

E: Pointing to me. Yeah. No. his friend also worked, out of town on and off as well, and so we had a lot of phone conversations, and he, knew nothing, nothing of our, open marriage. And so this one phone call, ah, kind of the same way it happened with Cole. He said, oh, so when you guys were separated, what did you get up to? And he asked the exact same way. And I told him some of the things I did, the fantasies I act outed, and he responded the exact same way Cole did.

F: So can you paint the picture for us? Like, how did that look.

E: How did the phone conversation look when I told him that I literally hunted down a fireman from one of those sexy calendars and I wanted to bed the sexy fireman on a. Yeah, that's.

F: Exactly what we want to hear.

E: Yeah. Yeah, I did. I set up a scenario specific of who I was looking for and what I wanted to do, and I act it out. And so both him and his friend were like, you did what? You have that in you. You know, you're. You know, I don't know. They just maybe never really got to see that side. Right?

C: No.

E: Uninhibited.

C: No, we did not. You didn't have that side prior to it.

E: And I guess that separation is what kind of, gave the freedom for that to come out. Because another podcast I was on explored how, unlike Cole, who grew up in the city and not very religious, I grew up in a small town and very religious. And so I had to have quite the sexual awakening to really establish my sexuality away from the church. And I think that's maybe what they were both so shocked about.

F: Right. They saw you, as this. I don't know if you're religious anymore, but at least someone who grew up as this religious good girl. And then she's telling me that she hanted a fireman from a calendar. And I do want to ask about that. How did you hunt him down and how did you seduce him?

E: It was, I believe, like, those Ms. Back then. It was one of those msn, chat rooms. Yeah. And, it was. It was happenstance. I did not actually hunt him down. I did not know his name. I met a man in a chat room who shared. He was a fireman and then shared the picture that it was. He was one of them that was in a calendar. And I then realized, wow, this is a fantasy I think millions of women have always had. And here I am, I just happen to meet someone and I have the opportunity, should I jump on it? And I did.

F: So how did you meet him? Through the chat.

E: I was newly separated and roaming the chat rooms looking for other separated people who might be lonely and bored on a Friday night.

F: Back when we had emazon. Those were the times. okay, awesome. So Cole's friend heard that story. Among others. And then what?

E: Well, it was over the telephone. And so he was brave and he said, do you. Do. I think he worded it something like, you know, do you do anything like that now or would you? And that in that split second, I had to decide if I was gonna divulge to our best friend our open marriage and things we had done. And so.

F: So he didn't know at this point?

E: Not at all, no. And Cole, was living far away. And so I ended up just jumping the gun, you could say. And I told him. And then later on that night, I had to tell Cole, oh, guess what I told. We nicknamed him Matches. Guess what I told Matches. I told him about us. And I think you held mixed emotions. You were very nervous about his reaction.

C: No, I wasn't nervous about his reaction. I was nervous. Not that I don't trust him, but things have a way of, getting out there. And I was nervous that this would be the hole in the dam that lets all opens a floodgates type thing. And I was scared it was go goingna get out. That it was more of that.

E: More about our discretion?

C: Yes. More about the discretion.

F: M.

E: So the conversation eventually flowed over, I'd say, at least three or four months. He kept digging for more information and being curious. And then he shared he was in a dead bedroom. And so over the next few months, I encouraged him to have those same conversations with his wife. And they ended up agreeing to have a don't ask, don't tell, where Matches had permission to find his sexual pleasure outside of the marital bounds. And as soon as that happened, I turned to Cole and I said, what do you think? And you didn't like the idea at first because you were terrified of losing your best friend.

C: Yeah, I was. I was not on board at first. And then I think it was more one of those. Well, yet on board, because we've already fooled around.

E: Not even that. Not even that. You made me sound like I went behind your back.

C: But'go But. It was not behind my back because had. We've always had it be. I don't ask for CVs on who she's going to meet up with. I trust her completely and totally. So it's always been a blanket. If you have a chance to play, play, I trust you implicitly. But it was a bit of a blind side when Sheved. It was with him because I wasn't expecting it. But no, it wasn't a, behind my back or breaking any rules.

E: We definitely had quite a few conversations where I pointedly would say, like, what would you do if, you know, you got a picture and it was of me sucking off your best friend? And he was like, oh, I don't know. And what I'd fear most is that I would lose my best friend. Like, that it would go sour. I'd ask you to stop playing with him and then it would be my friendship of 33 years that was gonna go down the drain. and then I think there was a day where you shared. You saw how much frustration I was having trying to find a friends with benefits. And I said, if only we could find someone like Matches who we trust that much already to invite into our dynamic that we both went, okay, yeah, maybe we need. We'll give this a try. Me? Yeah, I'll give it a try. And then he were very turned on in the end.

C: Yes, I was. But it was a bit of a blind side. It was a bit of a check this out. And Oh, so we went there, did we?

F: So I understand that it wasn't like you broke any rules, per se, but. But sounds like you did, as you said, fool around with Matches before letting call that that was going to happen.

E: Yeah, someone has to tip the toe over the little boundary or we would have stated limbo forever and ever and ever, you know. So I didn't feel that Cole was ever against it.What I heard was he was nervous to do so.

F: Okay.

E: I wasn't.

F: How about Matches? Did you talk to Matches about. About that? About, the dynamic before it happened? Or did it just happened and you guys had conversations about it afterwards?

E: Oh, no, there was at least like the first six months was just all talk, just talk. What would this look like? What would it feel like? Then the talk turned to flirting. You know, flirting. Did that feel comfortable to flirt and then, you know, sending, you know, suggestive pictures, you know, it was that weird, you know. And no, it was, it was just fun.

C: I didn't have any Conversations with them about him fooling around with my wife. Prior to it happening, I, had conversations him about the open marriage and all that. But no, there was no. It was a pretty long conversation after. But it worked out in the end, so it was all good.

F: Yeah. And what did that conversation look like?

C: I went over to his place to help him with something and there is that tension in the.

F: Elephant in the room.

C: Elephant in the room, yes, very much so. And so we, finally stopped. We're alone. And he made it very clear that the friendship came first and that if I even had an ounce of problems to let him know and nothing would ever happen again. Which made me happy that he saw that same way I did, the friendship was more important. And then we talked about it being a one time thing and I admitted to him that I didn't mind and that it was a turn on. And, they, we progressed from there. But we had, we did have the conversation of, is this a good idea for all three of us? Two people out of three liking it isn't enough. You have to have all three on board. And, so, yeah, we move from there.

E: I'm for that first time. I specifically remember, Matches had shared with us that he hadn't had a blow job in 12 years. And so I kind of had this kinky, competitive side to me that rose up, being like, I'm going to quench that thirst. I want to break that long drought of yours. And so I broached it with Cole, saying, what do you think if I just gave him a blowjob? Like the guy deserves one. Like, who holds back suddenly for 12 years? And that was the very first time Matches and I were kind of together was for just a blowjob.

F: I see. So even though, Cole didn't know when it was gonna happen. Exactly. You had already said, hey, this guy needs a blow job.

E: Yeah. And then that actually turned into Cole admitting to me that he kind of got even more aroused on the encounters he didn't know about that. He didn't know when they were, when they were gonna happen, that all of a sudden he would just get this surprise text. And so we started almost playing to that kink.

C: Yeah, sadly, over the years, I've discovered as much as I never want to be cheated on, I have a cheating kink. So we just.

F: Why do you say sadly?

E: Because all of society has such a negative connotation on cheating. Yeah, it's an oxymoron to have a cheating kink.

C: Yeah.

F: But just like with anything Consensual cheating is not really cheating. You know what I mean?

C: No. And that, that would be my caveat to it, that I would never want her to all of a sudden say, oh, remember eight months ago?

E: Yeah.

C: I carried on with a guy for about 3 months, never told you anything about it. That would be a problem. But a couple of days later with the big one with, oh, I wasn't out with my friend, check. And then she'll show me a picture.

E: That kind of in a very like cheeky, cutie, flirty way.

C: yeah, so you're right. It's not. It's consensual cheating.

F: Hey there. Before we dive into the second part of this episode, I wanted to tell you that if you'loving this conversation and want even more, you'll probably want to join my Patreon. For a low monthly fee, you'll get exclusive polyurious content. Things like bonus interview clips, solo episodes where I get real and share very personal stories and follow up interviews with guests so you can find out what's been going on in their lives since we last chatted. Plus you'll have access to a monthly support group with other polycurious people. Or maybe you are looking for more personalized support because you are in the process of opening up your relationship or you've been non monogamous for a while but you are feeling a bit lost in the trenches. If that sounds like you, I'd love to offer support as your relationship coach. If you're curious, you can book a free exploratory call with me to see how I can assist you. Links to both the patren and coaching are ah in the episode description.

Now let's get back to the show. Tell us how things are with Matches now. It's been, I guess for four years. Almost five years, right?

E: It has been four years. And it ebbs and flows with matches. When I don't have a friends with benefits or you know, like a recurring. Sometimes the booty calls, you know, will be like four or five times and then the guy realizes, yeah, this isn't for me. This feels too much like a girlfriend is often what I get and as Cole rolls his eyes is because then I don't think people truly understand what a friends with benefits means. I don't think a lot of people know or are open to polyamory. So they do these booty calls and I think I'm developing a friendship with them. And then all of a sudden they're like, yeah, I'm moving, I'm Gonna move on. Like this isn't for me anymore.

F: Likeus. It feels too much like a relationship, you know, I do think that that might be generational as well, I imagine. I don't know what age the people that you interact with.

E: 45 to 50 usually.

F: Yeah, right. I don't feel like that's really an issue in my generation as much I'm 30. People are a lot more comfortable with the concept. But yeah, I can imagine that people your age, they grew up thinking it's either sex with sex, worker or marriage. Like there's no in between, you know. So I can imagine it can be a little bit harder someone that would understand that dynamic, you know?

E: Yeah. So like right now I don't. I'm chatting with a lot of people, trying to develop that connection, being very wary of who I'm gonna let into our dynamic once again. And so, you know, matches kind of ebbs back in and we might have like a movie night that turns a little fun or we might, we call them Ice runs or Slurpee runs where all of a sudden, you know, we might have a little vehicular play and, and send Cole a cute pict something, you know. but it meets a need for both of us sexually. and Cole gets to enjoy some pics and videos of his favorite little porn star, as we very flirtatiously nicknamed me.

F: And I know that you already had a tresoason with him. Right.

E: So we've had quite a few.

F: Quite a few. How was that experience? I guess the first one. And how did that evolve in the camper?

E: Yeah, camping.

C: Yeah, mostly when we were camping, we would d have more fun. I'm notnna lie, it was weird. I averted my eyes from any portion of his body.

E: To clarify, he is uber, uber hetero.

C: Yes.

E: Yeah, it wasn't about not seeing me and matches, it was about not seeing matches. Dick.

C: Yeah, yeah, we, we had a threesome with the first person. She showed me pictures of with that person and I thought it went fairly well. It was, it was a hot little fun tryst. And then after that, that guy was like, no, no, I can't be involved if your husband's gonna be around or receiving anything from this.

E: Because it was a first time for that guy as well. He had never had a threesome. He had never had the opportunity to be watched or anything. And so we played for, I don't know, quite a few months. And then, just random encounters together. And and then I Said, well, why don't we play at my house? And if things go well, Cole is going to be coming home a little later. You can either scooted out before if it ends up you're not ready, or you can stay and Colal will walk in and we'll see how Cod feels and if coal feels warm in the moment. and I do believe Cole, isn't that the one you threw up on your way to the house? Wasn't it? Which one did. You were so nervous you threw up?

C: It was with Matches. Coming in with Matches.

F: Oh, it was the first one with Matches, yeah.

C: Well, to clarify, I wasn't. It wasn't, a threesome. I was just gonna walk in, sit and watch, and I was.

F: And that happened before the threesome?

C: Yes, yes, it was before the back threesome. Mattress.

E: Yeah. He said he pulled over on the side of the highway, threw up on the side of the highway, and then kept driving and came and then he watched. So for us, we kind of tiptoed into the lifestyle with every encounter. It was kind of baby steps. We said, well, what little bit do you think you could be comfortable with? And he's like, just watching. I just want to watch the first time. I don't want to jump right into a threesome. I want to feel the energy in the room, and I want to be drawn in or I want to have the permission to just sit back and take a picture or just watch.

F: And was that the first time you watched?

C: Yeah. Yeah. But like I said, the first time I ever walked in on her with another person was. Was a threesome.

E: It turned into a full threesome.

C: Into a full three.

F: Right. And you had already, exchanged pictures and videos of Ellie's encounters with others. But, after that threesome, the first time that you just went and watched without, engaging was with Matches.

C: Yes.

F: and so obviously, you were very nervous because you threw up on the way there. How did you feel once you were there?

C: Actually very comfortable. It was. It worked out very well. It was very relaxed, very. There was no. There was tension, but there wasn't any of that, I don't know the right term, but performed like, he didn't get all wigged out by me watching, and I didn't get wigged out watching her with another man.

E: It was kind of the best scenario because you're more of the voyeur and he's more of the exhibitionist. So Matches liked, you know, feeding his friend's kink, if you want to put it that way.

C: Yeah.

F: So when you, Ellie, when you came up to matches. Because one thing is to say, hey, let's hook up. Another thing is to say, hey, can your best friend and my husband watch? How did he approach it? Was he hesitant to, or did he know it was gonna be a TR on for him?

E: I think there's always a tiny bit of hesitation when you're doing something new. but it always came from, I don't want to make our friendship weird. How can we do this without it feeling weird afterwards? What, what conversations do we need to have or, you know, what elements need to be put into place so that everybody's gonna feel as comfortable as possible? And so, yeah, no, he's definitely, more of a risk taker and he's more of an extrovert that way.

F: Okay. So, Cole, you said that, you know, that was comfortable and a turn on for everyone involved, but the treason was a little bit harder. Why do you think that was?

C: Oh, sorry. Yes. It's just that general,

E: You were naked around another man.

C: Yeah, I'm not. I'm not one of those people that will I wear a shirt at the beach. I don't like being nude in front of people.

F: I see.

C: So the, So it was. Yeah, it was a lot of that was. There was nerves there. There was also just this. This deep seated fear that I'm going toa see something I don't like. I'mnna say something he doesn't like. He's going to say something I don't like. and then, as I said, I have performance anxiety at times. So if I lock eyes with him or I see something and then that affects my performance, it'll be a nosedive from there. So. So I just. I also have a very bad habit of allowing every single negative scenario to swell in my mind until I go insane. So.

E: Yeah, opposite of me.

F: Yeah. I mean, I'm not asking because it's a weird thing that you were nervous. Like, it makes total sense that, one would get into one's head, you know, like, there's what you mentioned, which might be a personal thing of feeling a little bit insecure about being naked with another man, but also the fact that he is your best friend. Right. So stakes are high. Because if it doesn't go well, how is that going to affect the friendship? Right. It's not like, oh, it doesn't go well. Well, we'll never see this guy again, and it's all good. Right. So I'm curious to hear, how was the experience? the other trisms that you had, like, did you ever get comfortable in that dynamic? Do you think that you eventually broke through the discomfort?

E: No, I don't think so. We've even tried to force some. We've tried to swap again many years later, and even that one just wasn't the best experience.

C: Well, yeah, that one was a bad experience for me because I had performance anxiety. I. My equipment didn't work, so there was a whole cavalcade of problems that night. I've definitely become more comfortable being around her, with people.

E: What I found interesting with that, for some, which was about four years ago, five years ago, was a couple we met. Yeah, we decided we. When I say we ebb and flow with matches, is because we. We sometimes both of us get this sense like it is infringing a little too much, too close. We're spending too much time with him. We're making. Maybe people are getting a little curious or, or worried around us, and so we'll back off and we'll, you know, just put it back down to the G rated type of friendship. and so we were looking for, more opportunities and we found this couple and we thought, Kate, we want to get more friends. We just want to go out socially. And, what I found interesting about that night was that, Cole actually seemed to enjoy watching me in the one room with my partner more than being with the other woman. Is that how you describe it, Cole?

C: Again, my equipment didn't work, so it was a botched night for me. Yeah, I, think if I was able to perform, it would have been a different night. I'm not gonna lie. It did turn me on to see her, el. With someone. But no, my side of it. My side of the room was tanked because of equipment malfunctions.

F: And Were you having performance anxiety because, I don't know, you were intimidated by this woman or because you didn't feel a connection or. Why do you think that that was in that case?

C: I honestly can't say.

E: No, we talked about it in quite lengths after that, and we didn't know if it was some of the medication he was on, had that type of reaction sometimes, or side effect. And then it was also, we wondered if, you know, he was just tired that night. And then we even joked that it was because you were near 50 and your. Was your equipment just not working properly. Were you developing, you know, a type of like erectile dysfunction? And then we'd be alone and I'd be like, no, no, you're definitely not. It was definitely a mixture of the other things.

F: Got it. Yeah. I feel like those situations can be delicate, you know? so, yeah, so that's when you realized. Or when did you realize, okay, you know what? It might be better just for Ellie to play and for me to feed off that energy as opposed to us trying to have these experiences or. How did you come to that realization?

C: I would say it was right around.

E: Then, four or five years ago.

C: Just, it was too frustrating for me and, it was too much of, not enough gain on my side for the frustrations yet again, I'm not saying I'll, never. I'm just saying for me right now, in the past few years, it's been great on my end. I have not. No complaints. But it's the few times I dip my toe in there, I realize I don't like people. So.

F: Yeah, that makes sense. Sounds like that was kind of a similar situation with matches. Right. Like you had some threesomes, but it still felt a little bit uncomfortable. so you were like, okay, you know what? Let it just be them having their fun. Do you still watch?

C: Oh, yes. Everything we've described, the only thing that's really changed is how actively I might look for somebody I still watch. And a side note are, one of our rules of me being involved through pictures, video, sound, caused friction with one person she was on dates with. She clicked with him and he was all on board until the night of. And then it's, I don't want pictures. I don't want. And then she wanted to respect his side of things, which I can respect. And then on my side of, it's like, no'he's. there to fill the rules or he's not to m. Not to be there. And there's no argument for that on my end.

E: Yeah. And the way I saw it was I said, this is someone I want to build trust with. I want to turn into a friends with benefits. So we have to build his trust and earn it. So then I thought, can we do one or two encounters where there doesn't have to be pictures and videos and just let him get comfortable in our dynamic? It was new to that person. And Cole really felt, no, this is a boundary. If you're going to be with anybody, I always want to feel involved. And that made him feel pushed to the side. And so I ended up not seeing that gentleman anymore.

F: Yeah. Yeah. Because it's interesting. One would think, you know, she's having all the fun and he's just watching her having sex with other people as if it was born. But it's so much more than that. Right. is the energy, is the agreement, is the feeling that you are in control and that she's doing it. Sure. For her pleasure and the other person's pleasure, but also for your pleasure and you had also mentioned, when we first talk before this interview, that then you do the act of reclaiming. So can you talk a little bit about what that looks like?

E: The first kind of rule or boundary is that I brush my teeth and sometimes even shower because he is not aroused by the scent of another man. He's aroused by my actions and activity. But I'll let you explain.

C: That's correct. I don't want to. I'm not. I don't have a fetish for jumping right in after she's come home. Usually, it's. I do get aroused when she describes the date because a few pictures, a, few videos, which are amazing, don't describe the whole date. So I'm one of those people that. Well, I'm reclaiming or going down or pleasuring her. I like to hear about the date. And then I will. Will have sex and I will do my best to, It's like, yeah, like the reclaim, the whole. This is why you're married to me.

E: You're mine.

C: Yeah. Without it being so macho, masculine. I'm not one of those people that has to hear, I'm better than someone else. I'm bigger than someone else. That's actually the opposite of what turns me on. But I do want that feeling of, this is why you're married to me and not him.

F: M. So when you say that it's the opposite, that turns you on. Does it mean that it turns you on to hear, oh, like, he did it better than you do it, or something like that?

C: No, not better. Just he. When he did. When he went down, I came really hard. I, like to hear that. Not when he pulled out his dick. It was so much bigger than yours. Oh my God. No, I don't need to hear that.

E: Cole's always made it perfectly clear he's not a cuck. He doesn't like the humiliation or embarrassment aspect at all. Whether it's role play, you know, whether it's done in fun and just. And playfulness. No, it's, It's definitely more at that compversion level where he likes to know I came nine times because he likes to know I had that much fun.

C: Yes, like she said, we've had long conversations where if it ever got to the point where I felt a person she was going to see or seeing for dates was belittling me in any way or disrespecting me, it would be a, door getting shut very fast. So, like she said, I'm not. I run this, walk this line where I want to know she had an amazing time. I want to know she came. I want to know she was safe and just had a blast. But I also want to know her, to know her wanting to come home to me. I want her m. To always have that. I never want there to be that situation where, boy, I really hope this other guy calls me again, because I really need it.

E: I actually have an audio I did on Reddit years ago, and it was a letter written to my stag from his vixen. Dear Stag, my hubby, thank you for the opportunity to play tonight. You might be at home right now, but I need you to know that tonight when I look into the camera, I am looking at you. You are here with me. I feel your eyes on me. I love that you look at me with such interest, curiosity, desire. And I can imagine, your cock as you watch me, how it pulses in your pants as my bull runs his hands all over my body. And sometimes listening to that helps people understand, like, that I do this, I guess from the kink aspect, I do it for him, but I also do it with him.

F: M. Well, we'll definitely, link that audio in the episode description as well, but can you just explain what a stag and, I'm not even familiar with the terms, actually.

E: So when I did that podcast years ago, they told me I was actually not a hot wife in their def. Their definition. And they put me in my place by saying, you are not a hot wife. You know, he has the right to go play. You're not telling him he has to stay home. He's not a cuck. So that doesn't meet any of the regulations of being a hot wife. You're a stag vixen, meaning he's a stag. He can fuck whoever he wants to fuck. And you're a vixen. You can fuck whoever you want to fuck. And I thought, okay, well, isn't that polyamorous? Like.

F: Stag vixen? Okay, I'm learning something every day. yeah. And it's interesting because to me, hot wifing doesn't necessarily have that connuctation of the ball and the. What is it and the cock is it.

E: Yeah. The husband would be the cuck and then the man coming in would be the bull.

F: Right. And basically the cuck likes to kind of be a little bit humiliated by the ball, which is like this hyper masculine man that comes and fucks your wife much better than you do. And then you'd get off by that idea. But as you were saying, Cole, that's not your case. You don't get off by thinking that she was fucked better or worse or whatever. You just get off by thinking that she's a hot wife. Right. So for me, hotwife, and, Bo and co don necessarily have to come together. But that's my definition. Sounds like some people that, you know the people.

E: For every five people you talk to, they'll define it five different ways.

F: Yeah.

E: You know? Yeah.

F: Yeah. Well, thank you so much for sharing all that. I think it's good to, help people see that there's a way in which even if your wife is having a lot more fun than you are, you can bring that energy in, in a consensual way with everyone involved. And that might be watching, that might be sending pictures, that might be, participating, but it might not be. Maybe you don't feel comfortable to participate for whatever reason. And it's okay to still use that as a tool as long as everyone's involved. Right. Because I think that that also can be very arousing for the people. you sleep with Ellie. And it might not be arousing to some, like the guy who said that he wasn't comfortable with it. And then you don't engage in that dynamic. Right. But it just shows that there's many ways of relating and that the fact that Col is not having sex with other people doesn't mean that he's not reipping the benefits, doesn't mean that he's not in control. Right.

E: Yeah. And he's having pleasure. It just looks different than the average.

F: Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing. I always like to end these conversations asking, what would you tell to, ah, a polycurious person? it could be that or it could be what would you tell to someone in a dynamic similar to yours, but what's like a lesson or some of the lessons that you've learned that maybe you wish you knew earlier in your journey?

C: Well, one thing I do tell people, in a roundabout way, because I don't talk about this with May.

E: Someone you chat with.

C: With someone I chat with. Yeah, definitely with some of the people I chat with where they talk about it being the end of a marriage. I said, if you do it to fix a marriage, it's not going toa work. If you do it to enhance a marriage, it'll work.

F: I love that.

E: And, for me, my advice would baby step it. Don't jump in with both feet buck naked, dip your toe in, talk about it, inch your way in, with great conversation and the consent of your partner, and it can be something wicked fun and beautiful and sexy.

F: I feel like those are the two most basic. I mean, not basic in a negative way, like essential, like important pieces of advice for opening up. So, it shows that, the past over a decade that you've been doing this has really taught you a lot. And I'm glad that you've come to a place where you feel comfortable with your dynamic and you feel comfortable talking about it, and you know who you are, and you can help other people feel comfortable about their dynamic too, and learn to do it in a way that is respectful, ethical, and where everyone's enjoying themselves.

E: Thank you for the opportunity to share.

C: Yes, thank you.