Leo: I had to honor the truth that another man being part of a first experience was more threatening to me than another woman. Reconciled that truth with the fact that it was like, well, eventually, in terms of how I look at, you know, society and our relationship, like, I don't want that to be a thing, but I also can't change how I feel.

Fernanda: Yeah.

Leo: Right? So finding the space between the partner that I want to be and that I know Luna deserves, for her to fully be the person that she is and all her beauty and diversity and complexity, and at the same time, also honoring my own process and where I'm at. I think one thing that has been really helpful for me to kind of understand is, like, don't judge yourself. Like, don't judge yourself for the things that you feel and the difficulties that you may experience. It's okay. And actually, once you let go of that judgment, there's an opportunity for growth, and that's exciting.

F: Hi, everyone. Welcome to Polycurious. I am Fer, your host, and I love today's episode so much that it might be the longest Polyuros episode ever. Usually when they're this long, I cut them in two parts. But this time around, I was like, nope. I want you guys to have the experience I had while talking to my dear friends Luna and Leo. And there's a couple of things that I love about this conversation. One, we talk about Luna's transition from her previous relationship that was pretty toxic, also non monogamous, to a more healthy monogamous relationship with Leo. For those of you out there who might be wondering, is what I'm experiencing healthy? I think today's episode might give you some pointers. We also talk about how Luna's background, having been in that relationship and just more generally working, on breaking out of the mold, influenced her triggers in her relationship with Leo. For her, having freedom to express who she really is is very, very important, as it should be. But sometimes her previous experiences made her assume that Leo had intentions that he didn't have. Similarly, Leo also has his own background and his own triggers that he brought into his relationship with Luna. But in his case, his background resulted in him needing more control, more predictability. And today, they both share how opening up has allowed them to identify those triggers, work on themselves, and find a relationship that feels safe for both of them. And that required going slowly, which is something that I always recommend doing things in stages, talking about it, readjusting and moving from there. And that's why their opening up has been successful.

Last, but not Least we talked about the importance of not judging yourself. Right. So in Leo's case, he experienced more jealousy around the idea of Luna exploring with other men, even though in theory he might consider himself a feminist and he might not want that to be the case. And we talk about coming to terms with the reality of your feelings and balancing that with the ideal person you want to become and how in order to become that ideal person, you first need to accept where you are at in that moment, even if you are not proud of it. Right. So that also applies to jealousy. A lot of us wish we didn't feel jealous and therefore agreed to things that we think we should be okay with, when in fact we're not okay with them. And of course there's a degree in which you have to push yourself to do things when you feel that way. But there's also a very important skill which is boundary setting. When you feel like something, it's a little bit too much and it's moving into the UNSAFD territory, not just uncomfortable. Please do listen all the way through. There's so many nuggets of wisdom. Okay guys, hope you enjoyed this episode as much as I did. Here's my interview with Luna and Leo.

Luna and Leo, welcome to Polycurious. Thank you so much for joining me on a, ah, Sunday afternoon after a Halloween night out for me in my pajamas in New York. just to give some context for the listeners, but I just think your relationship is amazing. ###k it's one of those cases where I know you as friends, but I actually don't know much about your relationship. But I know it's solid. So I'm very excited to share that with the listeners.

Leo: Yeah. Thank you for having us.

F: Yeah, of course.

Luna: Yes, thank you so much for having us.

F: Okay, so tell us a little bit about you guys. Where did you guys grow up? What do you guys do, roughly? Just an idea for listeners of you know, who you are.

Luna: So I grew up here, ish, in the Tri-State Area, Jersey girl born and raised. And right now I have a hair coloring studio which is my own business. And I'm also studying to be a licensed mental health counselor. So currently studying psychology, working on my bachelor's degree.

F: M.

Leo: I'm from Europe, Germany originally. I grew up in a tiny little town and kind of the tri state border area with Switzerland, France, yeah, and kind of, you know, eventually made my way to New York, came for work and then stayed on for love. I work as an international civil servant and, an international organization in the area of, preventive diplomacy and peacemaking. And I've been living in New York for about six years now.

F: Awesome. well, yeah, tell us how you guys met. I think I remember this story, so. Yeah, go ahead and tell us.

Luna: so it's a little bit of a juicy story. Leo and I actually met, online, and it was just the one night that I was on Tinder. Online apps are not my thing, but I was actually already in a committed relationship and my partner at the time and I were open.

F: Oh, I didn't know this part of. Sorry.

Luna: Yeah, we were open. even though that was a bit of a catastrophe. But in any case, we were spending some time apart. I was in New York and he was back home in Europe, where he's from.

F: He's also European.

Luna: Yeah, yeah, he is.

F: I don’t blame you, you’re [x] is hot.

Luna: Yeah, yeah. And so I decided to just kind of give it a whirl and see. And so I just had one night that I was on Tinder, swiped on a few people. Leo was one of them. And I almost didn't swipe right. I actually sent Leo's profile to a girlfriend and was like, what do you think?

Leo: I was skeptical.

Luna: I was very skepticale.

Leo: In the meantime, I looked at her profile. I was like, oh, my God, it's the most beautiful person I've ever seen.

F: What made you skeptical?

Luna: I just couldn't get a true sense of his energy from the photos. And for me, that's very important. I need to feel the vibe, you know, and in Leo's pictures, he was just a bit. I could feel this, like, buttoned up reservedss. And that doesn't usually intrigue me or pull me in at all. but then there was just this one photo where I was like, ooh, I feel like there's a little bit of fire here. Like, there's a little bit of intensity which does pull me in.

Leo: It was a picture. Was annoyed.

Luna: Yeah.

F: You were annoyed?

Leo: I was annoyed. Oh, that's interesting.

Luna: Yeah, that was the hot picture.

F: but wa were you annoyed?

Leo: It was just. I mean, it was a picture that was taken sort of the tail end of my previous relationship, which was, you know, unfortunately rather toxic. But, you know, I mean, now looking back at it, insightful in many ways, but it was really sort of in that process of ustangling and it was taking at that time.

F: I see.

Leo: Yeah, yeah. By my partner back then and, like, it was a day where we just have had an argument, you know, and.

F: Luna was like, oh, I see some emotion there. I'm into this guy. Signs of life.

Luna: Also, he, was wearing a sweater that was a bit fitted, so I got kind of a glimpse at his muscles. So that helped.

Leo: It helped.

Luna: Yeah.

F: Oh, an angry, muscular man.

Luna: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ah, just what the patriarchy tells me I need. but anywho, so I sent Leo's, ah, profile to a girlfriend and she encouraged that. I swipe right and I did. Ended up striking up a really lovely conversation, that went on for a little bit and I think we were quite close to it, just becoming one of those almost, but didn't count connections where you just chat for a little bit and it fades to nothing.

Leo: Yeah.

Luna: But I think just at like the very end of that, or if it tipping over into being in that category, we decided to meet each other.

Leo: And spontaneously, like, we kept chatting that day. And I think she was true to her nature. Like, you know, let's be spontaneous. And he's like, I'm coming into the city. Let's see what this is about.

Luna: Yes. I got in my car and drove from Brooklyn. And I'll never forget that as I drove over the bridge, over the Brooklyn bridge, the full moon was rising and it was like the October hunter's moon. And it would just like, typically the biggest one in the sky. And it was orange and it was bright and it was just incredible.

Leo: It was beautiful.

Luna: Yeah. So the night kind of had this magic in the air.

Leo: It was also, if I may add, I mean, it was, you know, an Indian summer night. it was warm, the day had been sunny, and it was, the year where everybody was coming out of COVID And it was the first time really where people were out and about, you know, going for a drink, having dinner, kind of re enterering life after a period where, you know, all of us had had to bunker down. And like, for many, that period was very challenging, you know, emotionally. And so it felt like it had that air to it, you know, like everybody was taking a big breath. Yeah. And then I. It was funny. I mean, we had agreed to meet at a street corner and she was a little bit late. I, was, you know, a little bit early.

Luna: Very German and very Latina.

Leo: And, so she think, yeah, I think you called me and she was like, you know, I'm a little bit late just looking for parking, but like, I'm in the neighborhood and sort of a few minutes after that call, I saw her driving past, and that was the first glimpse that I got of her sort of in person. And, you know, again, kind of, I was like, wow. And, a few minutes later, she, like, walked towards me and I was just floored. I mean, this is, like, the most beautiful person I've ever seen. and, like, there's something about her that, you know, I mean, if you see her in pictures, she's like, yeah, pretty, but, like, and beautiful. But if you see her in person, it's really, for me, about the energy that she has, which just, like, incredible. And she walked towards me and she was like, in her head, like, this is not happening.

Luna: Yeah. As I approached Leo, I definitely just had this thought of, like, oh, I'm not having sex with him. But it wasn't. You know, he's obviously very attractive, so it's not his physicality. Again, I just felt like a little bit of, like, of a reservedeness in him. And again, that just doesn't really pull me. But, we had great conversation. He was very lovely. I was already there, so I was like, you. Let's just enjoy this time with a nice person that I don't know. And as the night progressed and we got to spend a little bit more time together, the one thing that I think I really noticed that stood out to me was just how safe I felt with him.

F: Yeah, that's important.

Luna: Yeah. I just. There was this moment, we were walking together, and you know how sometimes you just, like, bump somebody? and we had that. And I just remember my body kind of responding and wanting that closeness more. And so that kind of piqued my curiosity.

Leo: And maybe also to, add, just at a time where your life was kind of in upheaval.

Luna: Yeah, yeah. My life was definitely in a bit of a, I would say, transitionash. Spiralash reconfiguration. The relationship that I was in at the time was extremely toxic. I really did not have a sense of safety. it was a lot of emotional overstimulation. not really a lot of stillness and peace in that connection. Quite the opposite. And so, yeah, just connecting with someone that within a few moments, maybe an hour or less, I could already feel a sense of being able to drop into myself and, you know, feel that ease, was very inviting. And so I think that's kind of feeling. That was when things took a turn and I became open to getting to know him better.

Leo: And then there was this moment at that wine bar.

Luna: Yes. Also at the wine bar. Leo didn't know that I'm allergic to wine.

F: Oh, you're allergic to wine?

Luna: Yes.

F: Okay.

Luna: And he took me to a wine bar. And you know, as we sat and we got the menu, I think neither one of us knew it was a wine bar. And we got the drink list and it was all wine. And I was like, well, you know, I'll just drink a non alcoholic drink. You get the wine cause I'm allergic. And he was very adamant that we would leave and find another place to go. And I was just like, no, it's okay, we already sat down. I don't have to drink. It's cool. Like just get a glass of wine, I'll get something else to drink. And he was very like, no, we're gonna leave, we're gonna find somewhere else to go. So it was like a little bit of that. Taking control of the situation and making sure that I was taken care of. That was also, that was also appealing.

Leo: Yeah, she liked that.

F: Yeah. I feel like that's so important. That's how I feel with said I'm going to be safe, like I'm taken care of. But I also identify with when they are re like good boys. Sometimes you don't see that sexual connection immediately, but that's also what makes you often feel safe because they're being considered and all of that. But that's awesome.

So Luna, tell me a little bit more about that relationship that you were in. Was it your first open relationship or had you had experience? What type of openness do you have?

Luna: I had experience before that. So, I was married once before and it was in my first marriage where I first explored openness. Also before that, when I was a teenager, in all my high school relationships, I always cheated. and I felt really bad about it. I felt really guilty about it every time. But I just never understood that there was actually another way to be able to work with that energy and that desire to have space for that exploration. And so in regards to the relationship that I was in when Leo and I met, we did have some shared experiences as well, and also some solo experiences. But as I mentioned, the relationship was very toxic. And openness just seemed to be what I consider unfortunately to be just the all too common tale of the guy pushing for it as it benefits him. But as soon as his female partner is also trying to take up that space, finding all kinds of ways and reasons to sabotage it. and I hate to sound sexist and I wish it wasn't the case, but that's just a story I often hear. and so that's what that was like.

And it was very chaotic. It was very like, aside from all the other emotional turbulence and what I now can look back and say was emotional abuse, it played out as we explored openness as well. just when it was convenient to him, he would open the relationship and take that space. And I would try to work with him, try to express what I needed to feel safe in that constellation. But if it ever kind of challenged him or put any work on him, he would just turn it around and tell me that I wasn't actually equipped to be open. That's not something I really wanted, that I can't handle my own feelings, that I can't handle my own jealousy. and then when I would try to again take that space for myself and have my own experiences, he would tell me that I wasn't doing it right, that I wasn't reassuring him, that I wasn't prioritizing him properly as my partner, that we should close it. And so then we would close the relationship. But then as soon as he met a girl he wanted to fuck, we would open the relationship. So it was very chaotic and I think it had very damaging effects on me. And one of the things that I think it definitely, I guess, negatively impacted was kind of my own relationship to my own relationship orientation as it relates to openness. And so that was a bit of work and repair that I had to do. Moving into it with Leo, just kind of reclaiming that for myself, like who I am, what I want from my relationships and how do I want to move through that and what is it that I need.

Leo: And I mean, that's also something that we have been, you know, dealing with and addressing is that experience. I mean, as far as I understand, it did leave kind of, an emotional mark, and wound, you know, and obviously kind of us exploring openness in a relationship, in a new relationship, you know, that was also present, of course. And we had to, you know, the ways you had been taken advantage of. And that was something that at times also showed up. And as we were kind of, you know, taking all first steps and having first experiences, I felt like sometimes that it was also playing out kind of, you know, sort of, I think sometimes you thinking that I was behaving in a similar way or kind of with kind of similar motives coming from, ah, a similar place. whereas, you know, that was not the case at all. But of course, I mean, we're all, you know, we bring our emotional paagkages and experiences from previous relationships. And I mean, that very much sort of, you know, applies to me as well in different ways, of course. But I mean, one thing sort of from the early stage, you know, getting to know Luna sort of under the.

The premise of her being in an open relationship and like me knowing that she was very transparent from the, from the get go, you know, and like, so hearing her say that in terms of, you know, the sort of what she was made to believe she was doing, and then sort of me being on the other end and seeing how respectful she was and how transparent in her communication she was, and, there was absolutely no doubt whatsoever in my mind that, you know, she has a primary relationship and that's a priority to her and she's, you know, everything else comes after. Right. And I mean, yeah, it was beautiful to see, you know, and just very much sort of very strongly contrasting. So sort of what I was hearing from her, what she was dealing with, with her partner back then.

F: Right. So you would hear her talking about how, like, her partner complained about this and that, but you would see her being such a great person. Negative.

Leo: Yeah, yeah. Later on, you know, later on, as sort of things were, you know, starting to get serious between the two of us, I would learn more about what she had been going through. But before that, she was, you know, she was extremely, I mean, it's a difficult, ah, dynamic to navigate, I think. But, for me, as kind of a third, it was easy to deal with, I guess. You know, I mean, she was just very honest and transparent. You know, I was like, okay, I was in a phase where I was coming out of a previous toxic relationship, but I've had a year and a half to kind of process that. And I was just, as I said, sort of, you know, coming out of COVID and everything was opening up and I was like, having like a great time dating in New York and experiencing and exploring myself in all sorts of different ways and exploring sort of new aspects of my sexuality and getting a lot of input from kind of, you know, creative inputs around, you know, breath work and, semen retention and like, the energetic crafts, if you will. and that was all super exciting to me at that point I met her. and so I was just like, very open. I was very much kind of, you know, this is an incredible person. I have a very, very much felt like something special, you know, from the first night, as I said, there was magic in the air. When we met. But I was also like, okay, I'll just. You appreciate this as a beautiful gift that was handed to me for as long as I can. I'm gonna enjoy it. But it was also, at the beginning, very clear, okay, eventually, like, this is gonna end. Luna was actually planning to move to Europe.

F: And so for us, find more Europeans.

Leo: We have a few couple of weeks to kind of see each other, enjoy that time, appreciate it for what it is, but then we will part ways.

F: So you were gonna move with your partner?

Luna: Actually, it was all so close. Like, my life was on, like, a fast train to disaster. yeah, I mean, we had an apartment that he was gonna pay for, and we were.

F: We'in Europe.

Luna: Ah, Copenhagen. we were gonna move there. There was a retail space that we were also going to purchase for me to start my business there. It was all pretty much going in that direction of really, like, building a life together. But thankfully, I got off the train and didn't follow that ride.

F: because of Leo?

Luna: No, actually, my connection with Leo, it came about and started when that relationship was already in a bit of a state of turmoil. And looking back, I could definitely see that I was, like, in a detox state. Sometimes you're in a relationship and you're kind of already processing and disentangling and disassociating and pulling away. And then when you finally say, I'm actually done, actually, you did all the unraveling already. And so I feel like I was very much in that state with that relationship. And as things got more and more intense in the, quote unquote uncoupling between me and my partner back then, we also stopped seeing each other. I felt for me, it was very important to do things with integrity. Not just for my ex partner, or not just for Leo, but for myself. just to Leo. And I kind of have things be very clear and clean cut. I didn't want my connection with Leo to be the reason. and I felt like it would be unfair to project that onto him and that connection as well. Like he's some kind of savior or some kind of chosen person to pull me out of that. It was something that I had to pull myself out of. And I think, as I said, we stopped seeing each other when things got really intense. There were several months that I think we didn't really connect at all. Like, we would kind of drop each other a line here and there, and he would ask me how I'm doing because he knew I was going through A rough time. and I will say something that I really appreciated and admired is that he never held that space as anything other than a friend. There was never any, like, when I.

F: Wake hing up again.

Luna: Yeah. Or like, you should leave him or you deserve better than that or there was never any, He never tried to assert himself in that way. You know, he was just a very kind, caring friend that just wanted to know how I was doing. And so I think one thing that, I could say contributed to help me making that decision was just feeling that it doesn't have to be insanity. Like that reminder. Because when you are in a relationship with someone that they themselves are going through so much emotional turmoil and that's what they bring to you, and then you get pulled into it. It can be kind of like an undercurrent where you don't even realize until it's too late. Like you're really in this whirlpool with them. yeah.

F: And you think that this is normal. All couples fight, whatever. And then you have a good relationship and you're like, oh, wow, this is possible.

Luna: Oh, exactly, exactly. And yeah, I think I just kind of forgot, like being so wrapped up in that you kind of forget what normal looks like. Cause it's something that happens slowly getting pulled into that. It's not like from one day to the next. And so, yeah, spending time with Leo, even in just the sense of like friendship and loverhip was just such a lovely, refreshing reminder of what it's like to connect with grounded people. And so I think that helped in that way. but I definitely was very mindful and very intentional about not, anchoring that onto our connection and not using him as like a crutch to get out of that. So as I said, there was a really, there was a lapse in our time in connecting as I kind of worked through the most intense part of unraveling that relationship.

F: So you were two months away from moving.

F: And within those two months you were like, I'm not doing this, we're breaking up. Forget about the apartment and the lease and everything. You just called everything up?

Luna: Yeah, by the time Liu and I started seeing each other again, because as I said, there was a lapse. There was about two months left, I think. And so, yeah, within that time I actually decided and made it all happen within a week. True to her nature, my ex partner took a trip to spend some time with himself. And I knew that that was like my moment to just get some space and some time to Just feel myself and get some clarity. Because I was so overs stimulated in our dynamic that it was almost impossible to get that. And it was like as soon as he was gone physically from me, I was able to feel into myself and my clarity just came like a lightning bolt. And I knew that while he was gone, I had to make the move to leave because otherwise it would have just turned into a whole debacle and shit show. And so yeah, within a week I decided it was over. I packed up my share of a two bedroom apartment and got the fuck out of there. And that was that.

F: Good for you.

Luna: Thanks.

F: And you know, you made space for much better things to come. Yeaheah, absolutely. So Luna, you were the one who had experience being open.

F: Leo, you from what I understand, didn't have any experience. And then when you guys eventually made it back around together, how was that experience for you? Or how was that conversation? Did you guys talk about closing for a bit and then opening up or how do you approach kind of next steps in navigating this world?

Leo: I mean, I think Luna was very transparent. from the beginning I think to me it seemed like there was some part of her that wanted to make sure that I knew, you know, what I was getting myself into. Right. And for me it was very new. Like I was coming from a background in a circle of friends where everybody was, you know, in like, monogamous relationships. And but as I said, like was. I was kind of in a phase in my life. I like just exploring and you know how Luna said like, you know, like the initial vibes that she got from my pictures and when she met me, kind of a little bit button up and closed and definitely, you know, that was the case. It was a little bit in my, in my closet, if you will. but entering a ph. I was like, you know what I mean? Just you know, take the plunge and be open. And so when she shared with me that, you know, that's her preferred relationship constellation, I think there were a few things. One was a curiosity and openness and like this is an incredible person and at least, you know, I want to explore this and see what it actually means. But also definitely sort of initial sense of being a bit overwhelmed and kind of. Because, you know, I don't know, right when you talk about like open relationships, like it's a huge spectrum, right. And can mean kind of know, open to shared experiences all the way to kind of polyamorous relationships. Right. And I had absolutely no idea really. Sort of where we would land on that spectrum and what it would mean to us. And. And so, you know, I'm definitely a person that tends to kind of overthink at times and lean a little bit more to the, I guess anxious side. And so, you know, I had all sorts of kind of scenarios kind of playing out in my mind of what that would mean and if I would be able to kind of put up with that, if you will. Right. So that was where I was coming from at the beginning.

F: So how did you go about taking the first few steps and how long after you started seeing each other more seriously?

Luna: well, in the beginning, we definitely agreed that closed would be best. just to give our relationship time and space to build trust, to get to know each other better. And that is my preferred way as well when building partnership with someone is not to just jump right out of the gate into openness. A lot of communication, some successful talks, some more challenging talks. We definitely agreed that our first step would be a shared experience with a woman. And, that happened, I would say, about a year or two.

Leo: So it's so funny. I think it's so indicative of our dynamic because I feel like our first steps were actually, yes, a lot of communication and talks. But for me, kind of the first steps were actually kind of. We were at a party, at a rooftop party, and we talked about, you know, how's it like for me to kind of see Luna share a kiss with another person, you know, and like, lean into that and see how it feels m and what kind of emotions it brings up. And so we did that, you know.

F: With another woman or a woman with another woman.

Leo: That happened. And it was kind of there. Like, you know, she came to me, she checked in, she was like, you. I was asked for a kiss. How would that feel for you? And I was like, you know, okay, guess I gotta take the planunt at some point.

F: And how they did feel for you?

Leo: I mean, you know, like, yeah, it was. Honestly speaking, you. It was mixed because it was. On the one hand, it's so interesting. I mean, and that's also why I think, like, openness is such an interesting journey because it brought up all of these emotions that I know are, sort of revolve around insecurities that I'm dealing with. And it was kind of in your face. Right? And feeling that in that moment was like, whoa, okay, that's strong. I gotta like, look at that. What is that? Ah, right.

F: But what was the insecurity?

Leo: Well, I think like there were a few things feeling left out in a way, like not being included. I m think that was one. then just also like coming, as I said, from you know, being in relationships where like they were closed and so sort of seeing your partner being physically intimate with another person was just not something that I had ever seen or experienced, you know. And even if it was just a kiss, I mean, still, you know, where I was coming from, that was like a big step. Right. And for her, I mean, you know, it's just a kiss, you that's different. And so there was that. But then, you know, and then there was also kind of. Okay, I mean that's kind of sexy. That was also there. and then I think a little bit of, you know, a sense of being proud about myself. Like, okay, no, you know, like I took that step and kind of also I am demonstrating to my partner that I am willing to kind of, you know, even if it's just baby steps to kind of move ahead and provide that, create that space for her and see how it feels. And then, you know, sort of us being able to integrate that afterwards into our, our relationship. But yeah, you know, I mean, as I said, I feel like it's so indicative about an illustrative of our dynamic because I'm very much kind of, you know, step by step and see how that feels and integrate it. And Luna is, it's a lot more just like spontaneous and kind of forging ahead, you know, and. Yeah, and I think a key kind of, element of our dynamic is kind of finding the space in between in those two ways of approaching openness.

F: Yeah, I resonate with that.

Leo: Yeah.

F: Yeah.

Luna: That was a much better explanation of our first steps.

F: Like first steps. And you're like, oh, we had sex and we was like no, no, no, no, no. You first kissed someone.

Leo: Yeah, yeah, no, it was a lot more that. And then there were even other steps. Right. So we talked about kind group scenarios, for example, and then there were a couple of situations where we were invited to group scenarios. We kind of talked about it like. And that as well. Like for me initially, like these scenarios were quite activating, you know, and so.

F: Just the possibilitye just even just like.

Leo: You know, thinking about it, thinking about it and like going through, talking about different scenarios. And so yeah, I mean, I'm very grateful for the fact that Luna provided a lot of space for that, you know, for me to be able to kind of work through that, you know, And I think that's where she met me, you know, in the middle. And, like, where I was trying to meet her in the middle was like, okay, I am willing to go steps. And like, I also, you know, I mean, from the very beginning, I started to see a therapist that, you know, kind of helped me to kind of address some of the things that I felt like were coming off from me and, like, bought books about, like, you know, E M and open relationships.

F: And any books or resources that were particularly helpful.

Leo: Educate myself. Yeah, Polycurious was pretty cool.

F: Oh, okay. Awesome. I guess listeners already have that one. If you're here, listen to the rest of the episodes.

Leo: No, but, like, jokes aside, I mean, that was actually really extremely helpful for me. And I told you once, because it's, Particularly. Yeah. For people like me who were coming from a background where that was not part of the conversation at all. It was so helpful to hear about different experiences and of course, sort about people whose experiences resonated with me. Right. And it was like, okay, you'not. You're not alone in this. And. And it's also a process. You don't have to have it all figured out from the very beginning. Like, it's okay to take some time. these kind of things were super helpful for me.

F: Yeah, I love to hear that. And I imagine because a lot of these interviews were with people that you knew.

Leo: Either I knew or I actually came to know.

F: Came to know because of that. So I feel like that adds another layer. You, Which has been something very beautiful about the community that we're in and having a lot of people in the community sharing, then you can go up to them and have a conversation about it. And I do remember you came up to me and told me that you had listened to my interview with Seth and that set was a big one.

Leo: Yeah. No, and I met him. I, text him and I was like, I would love to see you for dinner. And we did meet up. And. Because for me, he was just, like, embodying, you know, partnership and masculinity. And like, in a way where I was like, that's where I wanna get to. And so a key kind of. And I'm still grappling with, that a key challenge for me is when it comes to openness in our relationship, it's like finding the space between the partner that I want to be and that I know Luna deserves, and creating that space for her to fully be the person that she is and all her beauty and diversity and complexity. And at the same time, Also honoring my own process and where I'm at. Right. And as I said, that kind of understanding, like, okay, you, it's a process that leads you there, you know.

F: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cause it sounds to me from your comments before that you were like, okay, but what are we going to be? Are we gonna be polyamorous? Are we gonna only play to, you know. And it sounds to me like hearing people's stories made you realize, like, okay, I don't need to have all the answers right now. But yeah, I think that Said is really good at doing that. giving me the space that I need to be myself, but also honoring what he feels is right. And I always appreciate when he honors that. And I don't know, Luna, if you feel the same way, but whenever, say, it's like, no, I don't feel comfortable with this. Even if I'm like, you know, inna do this thing. Yeah, there's definitely that. Especially at the beginning.

I'm curious where you guys are at. For me, fora I, there's none of that right now because we've come to a place where, I'm doing what I want, he's doing what he wants. But even back then when I was like, can we speed this up? Like, why does he have to be so slow? I'd be appreciative because the fact that he was saying no to things, even if they were small, made me feel like he was looking after himself and I could be safe to do things without feeling like, oh, I'm going to hurt him, or whatever, because I knew that he's looking after himself and I don't have to. Obviously I'll also look after him, but he tells me how to do that and guides me in that. And I think that something that a lot of people struggle with in open relationship is that they don't know themselves and they don't know their boundaries and they say they're okay with one thing and they actually aren't. And I think that a lot of it is just getting comfortable with being uncomfortable and being like, I don't want to do this. I don't feel good about this. No matter how much you want to please your partner, it's so important to also know your boundaries, but also compromise. Also do things that you feel uncomfortable with so you can eventually get comfortable.

Luna: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree. it was very good for us, and not just for Leo, but also for me as an individual to pace things as we did in the beginning, because it really gave as we mentioned earlier, it gave me the time and space to kind of work through a lot of the negative things that I had brought over from my last experience with openness. And I also know what it's like, right, to be with a partner who's not taking care of you or not acknowledging when you say, actually, this hurts me, actually, I'm, not so comfortable with this. So I would never want to disregard that when Leo expresses that to me. And I think it also gave us a lot of time to figure out how do we best communicate about these things? What is the most efficient and effective way for us to both feel heard and understood when we communicate about this? Ideally, avoid triggers when we communicate about this. Also figure out what our process looks like. Like, how moving through openness suits us best and doesn't put too much of a strain on our relationship, but just enough where it's manageable and we can maintain closeness. So I think I definitely appreciate and appreciate it at the time when we were beginning as well, how much care and, effort Leo put into honoring where he was at. And one of the things that we came to realize is that for Leo to feel safety, structure is very important. Like, structure and knowing the bounds within which we're working and having that be not concrete, as in, this is the way it's gonna be forever, but this is the way it's gonna be for right now. And we're gonna move through that and see how that integrates. That's very important in order for him to have a sense of safety, an.

Leo: Element of predictability for me.

Luna: Right. And so for me, a sense of safety is space. And knowing that I have, the opportunity to express myself, verbally, not just through action, but to express a desire or be able to talk about a desire or curiosity. And, of course, also be able to explore to some degree. And also spontaneity is something that is really important to me as well. So it was interesting to learn how we had such contrasting definitions of what made us feel safe. And so I think figuring that out was such a key component, in us figuring out how we were gonna approach openness and how we were gonna move through that process. And if we hadn't taken that time to really just kind of emotionally work through the process before actually taking bigger action, we probably wouldn't have gotten that gem of information, which has been pretty much, I would say, the key to how we approach it now.

F: Yeah.

Leo: And just to, add to that, I think it goes so much deeper and that's the beauty, if you will, of this process is because in having these kind of conversations and getting to these kind of insights, I mean, you know, we also started to ask ourselves, like, okay, why is that the case? Like for me, for example, why is structure so important? Why is predictability so important? And what I understood is like, you know, like many things, this is rooted in previous experiences where. So at the end of where I came to, it was like, okay, like it's a lot about the illusion, if you will, but about control. Right. And that connected back to kind of experiences in my childhood and as a teenager that I have made where I had lost, completely lost control. M. And you know, like When I was 14 to 18, I struggled a lot with addiction and had made the experience that I, you know, I let myself down in a way that taught me you can, you can't really trust yourself, you know, and sort of rebuilding myself up from that, I'm still grappling with that, I'm still working with that. But it was so helpful to understand, like, okay, that is connected to how I also show up and what my needs, desires, wishes, preferences are, when it comes to openness. Right. Because maybe if I'm really 100% honest with myself, I still can't 100% trust myself. So how would I even be able to do that with my partner in an open conservation? Right. And I think for Luna, and that's your story, you know, there was also something to be explored about why is it so important for me to feel like the door is not closed, like I need space.

Leo: To express myself, be spontaneous, be adventurous, you know, and not feel like a relationship equals kind. A straight jacket.

Luna: Yeah, absolutely. And I think similarly to Leo's, story, and as I'm sure it's true for most people, previous experiences definitely informed that. and for me, always being a person who leaned toward more alternative tastes, being very curious by nature, and growing up in a household that was much more, conservative and very much influenced by patriarchal constructs of what a girl should be, what a woman should be, and being in that type of environment, not just with family, but with peers, I struggled a lot to kind of stay true to who I am as I grew up and as I became an adult. And so, so I'm very protective of that. I'm very protective of staying authentic to the person that I've been protecting my whole life to keep her alive and not conform and not be subdued and not be tamed. and So I think there's just this deep feeling in me that I cannot betray my autonomy and myself and who I've worked so hard to protect and preserve, which is my true nature. I don't see that as something am willing to exchange in order to have partnership. It feels too transactional and it feels like a betrayal. And so yeah, I think us kind of coming to those understandings within ourselves and each other again, ye. It speaks to the beauty of what openness can teach you.

F: Right.

Luna: It can kind of bring you to do a lot of deep inner work and self understanding.

F: Yeah, yeah. And it's not necessarily like you have to change those things, but it's so good to be aware of them. You know, it's beautiful that you honor your individuality, but when that translates into you feeling like Leo is trying to cut your wings because he's like making a request or whatever, it's good to be aware like, okay, this is a trigger of mine. It's probably not the way I'm seeing it. You or in your case maybe I don't need to know everything, I don't need to have control over everything. And yeah, and it's good to, as you said, recognize each other's triggers. But yeah, it's awesome that you guys gave the space to talk about that. if you don't mind me asking, I'm curious, what type of addiction did you struggle with?

Leo: cannabis.

F: Oh, okay, yeah.

Leo: you know, I mean I started when I was 14. Everybody sort of in my friend circle, I was one of the ones just kind of start late but got to a point where, I mean that was basically all we were doing. Like we were smoking, every day in school, school breaks and this was in Germany in the afternoon we used to meet like, ye know, and it got to a point where, you know, my grades went down. I had to repeat a year in school. Like it was, I was really, we were collectively sort of on our way down in a way. and I got really lucky that I had a strong person in my life. My father who eventually put a foot down and kind of helped me out of it. and yeah, I mean it took a couple of years when I bounced back and then was able to, you know, finish school, went on to yi and stuff. Eventually ended up in New York.

Leo: Yeah.

F: Yeah. That's interesting. So you feel like you got out of it by regaining control? Yeah, like letting go of control felt like, oh, just like when I was addicted, things are going to get out of, out of control. If I'm not.

Leo: Yeah. Like it was a fundamental loss of sense of self and of control and that was scary. Quitting cannabis also meant like kind of breaking with the circle of friends that it was. And there was in. And like, you know, I didn't care about family back then. Like friends were everything to me, you know. And kind of coming back a couple of years later, I met some of them and like who, you know, continued smoking, sort of got into other things and like they had really broken lives. And it was, in a way, you know, it was actually very sad to see and it was a stark reminder of like that could have been me as well, you know. And like I'm incredibly grateful to my dad who was just like, here is a drug test, two weeks, this is gonna be negative, otherwise I'm going to the police and I'll denounce to you and your friends. And he was smart. That was the one lever that I responded to. I was like. The thought of my friends getting busted because of me was like, snap me out of it.

F: So you didn't wanna get clean, but you just were forced into it.

Leo: He was, he forced me. That was the only thing left. I mean, you know, like it was a super intense period. Yep. That's also you know, I thought about that recently. An important thing, I guess if you struggle with addiction, you get out of it eventually to look back and ask yourself the question, why did you do that? Like why did you let yourself down in that way? And for me, you know, like I was There was a lot going on back home and I was just numbing myself and running away from, you know, the situation sort of in our family. And so that was good to understand in hindsight and kind of also recalibrate a little bit my relationship with substances overall at a later age. But yeah, it was definitely such a fun, foundational, fundamental experience that I had that I kind of responded to once I kind of came out of it. It's like, okay, like I need to control everything around me because I can't obviously I can't trust myself. So it's just like, you know, I got super organized structured studies. I focused on all of that and just like educating myself and kind of became a bit rigid as well, I think.

F: You over corrected a little bit too much. Yeah, that happens to me too. And something'finding the, the balance is hard. So it must have been so interesting to enter the community with Luna, where there is some drug use for partying. But we do it not like Your friends were derailed because they started smoking with when they were teenagers. But obviously there's exceptions. But I would like to think that our community does it in a, more intentional way. So how was your for into that world?

Leo: It was incredible. It was in many ways healing rightuse.

F: Then you can see that it can.

Leo: Be done very differently. And it was also kind of, you know, different substances. It was kind of the first time for me to experience psychedelics and you know, plant medicine and like being administered in a very intentional and safe container and sort of going through that experience and seeing how, what incredible transformational potential some of these experiences have for yourself. And then, yeah, it was like, you know, sort of reclaiming that part of myself, in many ways. So that was a very positive experience, I would say. But it was also, you know, later in my life I had lived life, you know, during my twenties, I for work, for studies, I traveled a lot, I lived a lot in many different countries. And I felt like I had much more sort of grown as a person matured. And so my relationship to substances was also a different one. I felt like, you know, I'm not that young, adolescent, confused boy anymore.

Leo: I was doing a lot of work around that and found that it can be a very helpful tool in a range of sort of many other tools that I was exploring.

F: Yeah. Coming to New York and Luna kind of like open up.

Leo: Oh yeah, she opened. Yeah. In many ways.

F: No longer the bottom up, Tinder boy.

Leo: No, no, no, no, no. And I mean, no, it's so. I always say that and it's so mind blowing to me now, you know, four years in we're married and we have like an incredible life and relationship that I can't even begin to explain. How precious and special it is to me that, and it has helped me, I think us. And I'd also like to believe Douna, grow and heal in so many ways. And openness is part of that, you know. But not only, of course, this entire life that we have being a matter of swiping on a profile on Tinder to the left or to the right.

F: Yeah.

Leo: There's something too that that makes me believe, like, no, no, this was meant to happen. We're meant to meet and like be good to each other in that way.

F: I love that.

Hey there. Before we dive into the second part of this episode, I wanted to tell you that if you are loving this conversation and want even more, you'll probably want to join my patron for a low monthly fee. You'll get exclusive polycurious content. Things like bonus interview clips, solo episodes where I get real and share very personal stories and follow up interviews with guests so you can find out what's been going on in their lives since we last chatted. Plus you'll have access to a monthly support group with other polycurous people. Or maybe you are looking for more personalized support because you are in the process of opening up your relationship or you've been non monogamous for a while but you are feeling a bit lost in the trenches. If that sounds like you, I'd love to offer support as your relationship coach. If you're curious, you can book a free exploratory call with me to see how I can assist you. Links to both the patren and coaching are, in the episode description. Now let's get back to the show.

F: So, going back to your first drism, right.

Luna: I can't remember exactly how long we were together. It was definitely more than a year, maybe just under two. yeah, we had a very lovely shared experience with a woman and we both agreed that that would be the easiest way to segue into that. and yeah, it was a really nice experience and I think overall it was very positive, for the two of us, hopefully for the three of us. But, yeah, yeah, yeah. you know, it was really lovely to take that space together and take that leap together and, for Leo to be able to experience that for the first time, and be able to feel what it's like to see me with someone else and also for me to kind of reclaim that space as well. Right. Cause my last, shared experience or a threesome was with my ex. And those tended to be, ah, a bit more on the toxic side. so it was really beautiful for me as well.

F: To kind feelaling.

Luna: Yeah, yeah. To be able to kind of get that reassurance, like, no, this is something that I want and this is something that's a part of my nature and this is something that I enjoy and that I can hold the space for as long as I feel safe and respected and I feel aligned with my partner. yeah, so it was great.

F: Awesome. How was it for you?

Leo: Yeah, no, it was interesting. It was great. I just had to think about that one moment where the night off we had a kind of conversation with the other person was just like going on and on about how amazing Luna is and like, what a beautiful person. And I think afterwards he told me you were almost like, oh my God, like I think you went like, you know, almost a little bit too much.

Luna: I guess I just was like, no, you know, you have to flirt with her a little bit. You can't just sit there and tell her how amazing I am.

Leo: Right.

Luna: I mean, it's love. Lovely. Right? I've been a third, in a threesome with a couple, and it is beautiful to know that you're stepping into a container where the couple is healthy and they love each other and you're not stepping into some crazy. Like, this is our last ditch effort at fixing a hot mess. So I think, of course, I'm sure she enjoyed hearing all that, and knowing and being reassured in that way, you know, that this was a safe space. This is a safe couple that's like, really in love and just wanting to share a beautiful experience with her. but, yeah, I think I got a little shy and a little bashful with how much he was gushing about me. And afterwards I was like, you know, maybe like a little bit less talking about me and a little bit more flirting with her.

Leo: That was hurt. I was like, no.

Luna: Yeah, Leo was very adamant. Like, no, I'm not. There's no edit there. Like, I'm standing by that.

F: I talked to that third person that you guys had that experience with, and she did say relationship goals. She saw you and was like, that's what I want. You know what I mean? So I think that you're right. No edits there. She loves seeing how much you guys love each other. And I mean, I've been telling people, I'm going to interview you guys, and everyone's like, oh, my God, they have an amazing relationship. They're great. And it's just something that, that you sense and you see and it's really beautiful to see.

Leo: Yeah. no, I agree. I agree. Definitely. We also, we work for it.

Luna: We do.

Leo: We definitely do. It's not something that's just handed to us. Yeah, yeah, we do a lot of work on it. But, like, the experience, again, interesting, you know, because it was. I mean, it was my first time with another person and like, seeing my partner interact sexually with somebody, you know, a different person and all of that. So again, it was a bit of a mix. I mean, I definitely really, you know, enjoyed that. It was beautiful and exciting, you know, but it was also, it's. I find it so interesting to see how, you know, like, these notions and concepts that we grow up with within society sort of are deeply in. Great. And start to mess with you in these kind of situations. Right. Where like there was still I think a part of me, like sometimes like wait, like you know, your part is like being sexually intimate with somebody else. Right. so that was there. but you know, apart from that it was very positive. Something that we talked about and I found extremely helpful is like having a good couple of check ins before and talking about how do we wanna move into that experience, how do you wanna move through it and how do we wanna come out of it individually as a couple and the other person that we're inviting to share that space with us.

F: So what did that conversation look like?

Luna: I think with the first experience, if I'm not mistaken, it was a lot more organic and just kind of like naturally aligned. What I'm remembering more is just kind of as we continue to collect these experiences, and we had another threesome with someone else that kind of learning that we needed to talk about what aftercare looked like for, as you mentioned, for ourselves and each other as a couple, but also with this other person. And so we had an experience with someone and just the way that things ended was a little bit different. And so I was kind of giving affection to this person and just like being available beyond just sexual energy. but for me that's just a very, that was a very natural way to close that container. It doesn't mean that I'm always going to be this way with this person outside of this container. It just means like, yeah, I want to make sure that she feels safe and cared for. And it's not just like, okay, you're only a part of this energy when we're having sex. And as soon as that's over, you're back out on the outside. And that was something that I hadn't discussed with Leo. And so I think when he saw all that affection and warmth taking place, there was like a moment of like, what the fuck is going on?

F: Completely. Leaders do romantic. I didn't say enough for thiseah.

Leo: Yeah, because I mean that was also something that we kind of landed on when talked about. where are we on the spectrum of openness? Is like we're both pretty clear we're open to kind of, you know, physical intimacy with other people, but not interested in emotional relationships and connections that kind of go beyond that. Right. and so yeah, I mean that was a moment was like, Because it was also the first time, you know, and again like seeing my partner being like that with another person, was yeah, it was just like startling. A little bit and like confusing, the first time. And so I think afterwards we did a good job and talking about that and kind of integrating that and that's how I feel. Like you go, like you have an experience, you make the space to talk about it, to integrate it, and that's something that you can then build on. Right?

F: Yeah.

Leo: The next time around I was actually able to join in that dynamic and be you. That kind 'showed this kind of availability for the other person, which, you know, I definitely, of course, also wanted to make sure that has been taken care of.

F: Yeah, yeah. It's interesting how we sometimes divide in our head like sex and romance. And I mean even I do that. I also feel like I tend to prefer sexual connections over romantic connections, but I also experience romantic feelings and hold space for my lovers. Right. And that's almost part of being a friend. So it's actually not even necessarily romantic, but it's just like, okay, you are not just a sexual object. Like, I care for you as a person. and yeah, it's always interesting to realize that you can do that and still just be friends. And it doesn't mean that, as you said, that you're going to be there for them in that way every time next time.

Right. We tend to feel like whenever we see someone connecting, it's their partner and that's how they're always going to be connecting. And this idea of, okay, connections can just be what they are in the moment and it doesn't have any meaning beyond that. holding space for someone doesn't mean, okay, now there's romantic feelings and now we're a trouble or whatever, you knowe?

Luna: Yeah, yeah. And I felt like that was also very interesting to me. Right. And just kind of reminding me like, oh, I neglected to actually discuss that part with Leo. and something for me that was just like, yeah, second nature. This is just how you do it, was confusing. Right. For him. And. But once I explained and kind of shared where I was coming from and why, he was very quickly able to understand and see and like Leo said, actually also even participate in that the next time and back to something that you started to mention about it, kind of helping to inform our approach as far as like, okay, let's take a step, work within that framework and see how that integrates into our relationship. I feel like that's kind of how where we've landed, which is like identifying, what steps we're comfortable taking next and not getting too preoccupied with where we're ultimately gonna Land like five years from now, ten years from now. You one thing we both know, and that feels very true and authentic to us. And for me, it has always felt this way. And I'm 40 now, so I don't think it'll ever change.

F: Wow, really?

Luna: Yeah.

F: Oh my God. You don't look like an adult.

Luna: Boundaries. But yeah, I m feel I always say that my heart is monogamous. It's just my body that is not. and Leo feels the same. You know, he's open to sexual exploration and playing with that like, romantic energy with someone in a specific container, but not really looking for like another girlfriend or another partner. You know, identifying that and then just not feeling this pressure. And I think that was a big activator for Leo in the beginning. Like as he started to mention when I was like, okay, I want an open relationship. He's probably imagining me having two other boyfriends or not knowing where things were.

Leo: Gonna land a free for all, quote, unquote.

Luna: Exactly. And so for us, just kind of saying, like, okay, we don't know exactly. We're not gonna put a pin in exactly where we're trying to get to. We're just gonna take steps that feel interesting, that feel like it's aligned with what we want to do and what we want to feel and work within that framework and just see how that fits.

Leo: And just to add to that, I think we are also very mindful and intentional about, like, how manageable is that step that we're gonna take next? And so that's just something it brings me to something that I really. We just quickly wanna talk about. Which is, as Luna mentioned, we said like initially, okay, maybe a shared experience with another woman is easiest for us to kind of take it such a first step, see what comes up. And as we just, you know, talked about, there were many things that came up where we were like, oh, okay, like we need to talk about this. Let's integrate it. We can build on it next time around. And so in that way, I was extremely grateful to Luna that she was open to creating the space around, like me being honest that yes, it felt a lot safer and less threatening for our first experience to be with another woman than to be with another man or another couple. Right. and I think that's a, ah, it's a big one for many men out there, at least based on my experience of talking to friends, people I know who are on a similar journey. And so I had to honor. But the truth that another man being part of a first experience was more threatening to me than another woman. Right. And kind of, reconcile that fact or that truth with the fact that it was like, well, eventually, in terms of how I look at, you know, society and our relationship, like, I don't want that to be a thing, but I also can't change how I feel. Right. So how, how am I gonna navigate that juxtaposition, that contradiction? Right. And so again, like, through conversations, I was very grateful that Luna said, like, okay, I mean, this feels more safe and more manageable. Let's do that. And then we see where we go from there. Right?

F: Yeah. Yeah. It's like, accepting how things are instead of, like, how things should be. yeah. I feel similarly in a very different way ca. Because I realized that. But I've mostly had experiences with couples and I think it's partly because I like the man watching. I feel like the male gaze is like something that turns me on. And a part of me is like, this sucks. I just like to be objectified by men and like, I don't care. Like, I'm thinking about how the men is seeing us, you know, and like, I also enjoy women, but. But there's a part of me that's like, I wish I was thinking about how the woman ISS seeing us and how she thinks it's hot and not just thinking about. But at the end of the day, it is what it is. and it's not really like, I'm giving the man something that I'm not giving. It's just like, something in my brain that because of how we were socialized, it is what it is because of how we are socialized. You are less threatened by a woman in the bedroom. And I like to have a guy you like when interacting with a woman. Sure. We could like, aspire to you eventually. I don't know if you've already gotten there. I'm, curious. But bringing a man into the bedroom and I can aspire to have more like one on one connections with women, but at the same time, there's no point in feeling shame around it and not working with what it is, when it is. Or like people who have sexual trauma, for example, it's interesting. Like, people, for example, who have been abused, like, let's say like a man that has been abused by another man and they become gay and then they have shame around that because it'is it because they were abused by a man that now. But it's just part of what it is. It's part of our story. We can't fight what our preferences are. And sure, not everything is what ideal, in the ideal world would be, but it's okay.

Leo: So on that, I think it's, again, sort of a gift, if you will, of this, journey of openness, which is if you come to a place where you're okay with it and you don't judge yourself for how you feel, and you can just let it be, it creates space for yourself to ask yourself the question, why is that so much more threatening? And I think that's where the potential for insight and growth and reflection lies. Right. And so I had. And I still continued to ask myself these questions. Why is this so much more threatening to me? And some of the answers are very interesting, and it tells me a lot about how I have been socialized and how, again, masculinity is being constructed and exemplified in our society, often, like, based on competition, for example. Right. And, like, some of the answers that came to mind are like, okay, like, you know, it's more threatening to me because I'm scared that my man kind of performs sexually better than I do. Right. For example, in the bedroom, or that he has, for example, and sometimes even petty things. I feel like, you know, he has more resources and is able to offer certain experiences to Luna that I'm not able to offer. Right. And it's like, yeah, I mean, that's. That's. So where does that lead you to in terms of. Okay, so what is then the. The offer of these kind of insights in terms of work that you have to do around that? Right.

F: Yeah.

Leo: yeah. And it's like, definitely a journey that I'm still on.

F: Yeah. Yeah. And also, you know, recognizing your value, like, thinking like, okay, this other person has resources that I don't have and is providing Luna with things that I don't have and being like, but I have these other things. And that's where my value, lies, you know?

And actually, I interviewed Seth again, and one of the questions I got, like, listener questions. And one of the questions was, something around the lines of, does me being open affect our sexual experience? Or. And, you know, that's actually a question I had, but I had never asked set directly. But he knows that I'm having more kinky sex with other men and stuff. And there's never been that I've noticed, like, a comparison of him getting into his head when we're having sex, thinking about the sex I'm having with other people or anything like that. And when I asked him about it, he Was like, I know that's not my forte.

Leo: Seth is incredible.

F: Right? Right, Yo.

Leo: No, as I said, he was one of the few men that I knew about where I was like, like, he is in that process. He's way further ahead. And like, I can learn from this guy, like, so much. And that's so important because we don't have that. We don't. At least I don't know about that many men that kind of are at that point.

F: You know, I had never heard a man being like, I always wa. Want to be careful when I talk about these things. Cause I don't want it to sound like Saiden. I don't have great sex. We do. And it's like super connective and I love it. And we keep exploring and it's always a good time. But it's not as exploratory or as skiny or as the other types of sex I have. But he was like, you know, I know that I started having sex very late, that I came from a close upbringing, but I know what I bring into the table. You. And he didn't say it in this way, but basically you can fuck other people, do whatever. But like, I know, that I provide stability. I listened to you. I care for. He didn't say these things, but I know the value he provides. Right. And I would never leave him for someone that I have, like, hotter or like, more steamy sex with, you know, because he provides so much value. So in your case, like, this other person sure has other resources, but there's many resources in many other ways that you do bring to your relationship. And it's about like, the journey of finding self worth in that by. In a way, comparing yourself to others is, Yeah, it's a journey, as you said.

Leo: That's a big one. It definitely helped kind of tuna, I think, also being articulated and expressive around that kind of, you know, sort of the. Because I do deal with a lot of self doubt, you know, and kind of her being expressive in artic around kind of the value that she sees in me and what I bring to our relationship. That definitely provides an element of reassuring that I'm grateful for.

F: Yeah. So tell us where you guys are at now. I mean, how long? sounds like it's been already, like about three years since you had like that first threesome or so.

Luna: Yeah, I would say it's been about that. and so where we are now, is, we're open to more shared experiences, but not exclusively with women. we're curious about exploring with a couple. but that hasn't happened yet. And, also open to making space for me to explore with women on my own. you know, being bisexual for me is a big part of my identity. And I'm really grateful and appreciative that with Leo, I have a partner who understands that and wants to make space for that and also understands that it's one thing to have an experience with a woman with your male partner, and it's a completely different flavor to have, one on one time as a queer woman with another woman. And so, yeah, open to exploring that. Although it hasn't happened yet. we've gotten close a couple times. And I feel so bad because Leo has done all this work to prepare himself to let me take that space. And he gets, like, so proud of himself, and it's like, so cute and endearing for me to see him do that, you know, for me to have that space. And then through circumstances outside of my control, they just haven't aligned. so in that sense, like, I feel bad that that work has kind of not. He hasn't gotten to reap the fruit of that labor right by me having that experience, taking that space and then us integrating that into our relationship. But I'm confident we will get that there. and so, yeah, that's the framework under which we're operating right now that feels like it's not too big of a strain and ask, of our relationship and the bandwidth that we both have. Yeah. And just in the meantime, like, really leaning into and being mindful of the trust that we continue to build with each other and the safety that we continue to build together, and are able to lean on as we move through this process.

F: Nice, so have you had someone that you've seen more consistently or have you. I mean, as a couple? Sounds like so far you've only had threesomes with women, but have any of these connections been more of a regular thing or has it been just a one off?

Luna: with the. Yeah, no, it's just been. Well, one was a one off, and there was another that was, a two off. A two off. But no, we would like to.

F: And those are all the experience. Those are the three experiences that you've had.

Luna: Oh, wait, I think it was four. There was a three off.

Leo: I mean, we went to a couple of play parties.

Luna: Yeah.

F: O. Okay. Okay. How was that?

Leo: Yeah, I mean, we kind of joke.

Luna: About, you know, I don't know if it was just like, not our night, but we Just haven't really had luck as far as finding people that we felt a desire to play with. And this is something that we joke about's like it's a little difficult, but because individually we're actually both extremely particular. And it's not about being snobs and people not being hot enough or whatever. Cause I can definitely, and I feel like I can speak for Leo too. I can definitely see someone and be like, that's an incredibly, sexy, beautiful person. But for whatever reason, that spark is just not there for me. So I can't even say that it's because we don't think people are good looking enough or anything like that. We just are both two people that don't often feel that sexual spark for someone.

F: Yeah.

Leo: and then it has to be both of us.

Luna: Exactly. And then it has to be them also towards us. So at play parties we had a nice, it was a very nice experience as far as, like, we were very flattered, you know, there was interest from others, but we just were not into it. So at the end of the day we were like, wow, we just paid a lot of money to have sex with each other.

Leo: And say no.

Luna: And say no thank you and practice your boundary setting.

Leo: Yeah. But you know, I mean, those experiences for me, again, as somebody being new to openness, it was good to experience myself in a setting where, you know, there was play happening around us and we were physically intimate with each other. Right. And so feeling into that, how does that feel, you know, like being like in a room full of people where everybody's fucking and you know you're doing the same. Right. Even though there is no direct interaction.

F: Happening, you know, Any realizations from that?

Leo: yeah. I mean, you know, honestly speaking, I think sometimes some of these things are a lot bigger in my head than they are in reality. And so reminding yourself of that and encouraging yourself to take the plunge every now and then and more than often, it's actually gonna be that like, you are okay, you know, it's all right. And it's actually even fun, you know, and they're even. Yeah. Like it provides a new experiences and opportunities for you to experience yourself in different ways. Like observing others, you know, playing with each other, for example, and see how that is kind of a turn on, for example, you know? yeah. And how they're also integrated into our, sex life. So, you know, all of that was like. Yeah, it was fun. I mean, it was a few things. Like we went a couple of times, like I was a burning man. We were at a few parties here in New York.

Luna: Yeah, we've tried our hand at play parties a few timeseah. And, one thing though, that I will note that I felt was like a good moment from. I think it was the last play party we went to. There was a couple that was interested in us, and I don't know if other couples can relate, as it often happens. I found the woman very. Yeah, she was very interesting. I just didn't really feel that connection towards her partner. And we ended up kind of being next to them in the playroom. They were having sex with each other. We were having sex with each other. And there was a moment where she and I kind of shared a little bit of connection. And David, while he was fucking me, leaned over and was like, if you want to do things with him, I'm okay with it.

Leo: With them.

Luna: With them. Y. Yeah. And I felt like, so not just her, you. And that was really nice. Like, as we were in that, I didn't want to ultimately. So again, it was just like a no, thank you. But, But yeah, I felt like that was a really good moment. Right. Because men to that point were kind of the biggest scary aspect of openness for Leo. And so, yeah, just kind of him being able to say that in that moment, I think was a good growth moment.

Leo: I was so proud of myself.

Luna: Yeaheah.

Leo: He really want you that. In my therapy session, you know what I did? No, it was a big one for me, you know?

F: Yeah, that's awesome. yeah, making small progress, but honoring the time that you need. But as you said, working towards something, but being okay with not knowing when or how you're gonna get there or exactly what that something is, but just focusing on the step right in front of you. I feel like that's also how Said and I approached it. And I would also jump into wanting to decide things, and he'd be like, let's try this one step for a little bit. And the predictability part that you were talking about, and then reassess and see how it feels. And that's my recommendation for people. Okay, well, know, I'm just, like, elated with everything that we've discussed. You guys are incredible.

Any final words of wisdom that you tell to, a polycurious person before we wrap up?

Luna: I think my advice would be definitely take your time in figuring out what it is you need. in order to feel, as we mentioned before, safe before you move through this is it freedom to express yourself and be able to communicate freely. Is it more like what Leo feels like? More of a sense of structure? whatever the case may be, whatever sense of safety you need as individuals, figure that out as you move through communicating about it and setting up your structure. And also, as you said, like, just focus on the step that's right in front of you. Don't jump straight into your biggest trigger. Find a move that leans towards openness, that maybe makes you a little uncomfortable, but doesn't like set off all your panic buttons. Like if that, that's sharing a kiss with someone else while your partner's there, or if that's flirting with someone in front of your partner or not in front of your partner, whatever feels less threatening. Kind of start there, and don't put kind of like, a finish line to it because that can also feel overwhelming. Like, okay, we're gonna start with this, but just so you know, I need to like be in an orgy with five people and I need, don't get ahead, just step by step, identify what's the least triggering and start from there and just start integrating slowly. And I feel like that's a big mistake that a lot of couples make. It's just kind of like, okay, we're gonna try this. And it's just like way too much at once. Like, okay, we're gonna give this a try. And now your partner disappears and goes and has sex with someone else and now they're gonna see that person again. And I think that's like taking off the training wheels way too fast. So step by step, small discomfort. By small discomfort.

F: Yeah.

Leo: By sizen.

Luna: Yeah. Digestible bites.

F: That's right.

Leo: Yeah. I mean, all of the above. I think one thing that has been really helpful for me to kind of understand is like, don't, you know, as we talked about earlier, don't judge yourself. Like, don't judge yourself for the things that you feel and the difficulties that you may experience. It's okay. And actually, once you let go of that judgment, there's an opportunity for growth and that's exciting. And another thing that I found helpful, which was also like, you know, there are phases, like we've been through phases who are like, right now we have so much in our play and like, our emotional bandwidth is being tested by very challenging situations in our lives that we need to be able to focus on. And so let's pause things around openness for the time being and be able to concentrate on like, what needs our attention right now, you know? Yeah. And I think the last one, it's a process, it's a journey, it's not a defined endpoint, as Luna said, that you eventually want to get to. Because we also, we all just constantly change and evolve and so do our needs and wishes and preferences around openness as well. there's so much to be discovered, on the way that if you get too fixated and sort of where you eventually want to get to that you're missing out on, on the sweet things.

F: Yeah, yeah.

Leo: And last one. Sorry. No, no, look for, in my case, like identifying, finding other men who are in, you know, find themselves in a similar situation, grappling with similar kind of challenges and like, like turn to those people and have a conversation and learn from them was extremely helpful. And so, yeah, big shout out and thank you to Seth for that one.

Luna: I wanna add one more thing too that I thought of is, understand that through these experiences, as the discomfort arises, you have to be okay with that. You have to be okay with your partner being uncomfortable. And as ah, Leo mentioned, don't judge yourself. Also, don't judge each other. You, if your partner makes space for you to have a certain experience and when you come back they're feeling some type of way or a little withdrawn or uncomfortable, make them feel like it's safe for them to have that process and you can support them through that process. That's part of the integration, not punishing them for whatever might come up for them. Because you're gonna be on the other side of that too, potentially in most constellations. And integration can only happen if there's that safety around the aftermath of whatever may come up.

F: Yeah, yeah. Ah, that's a really good point. and I think it goes both ways, right? Like not judge your partner because they're experiencing jealousy or whatever it might be. But also if you are the one who's experiencing jealousy, don't judge yourself. But also don't put your jealousy on your partner. There's a way where your partner can make space for your feelings without you blaming them for their actions.

Luna: Exactly.

F: if their actions were things that you agreed to, but it's okay for you to feel those feelings even if you agree to your partner doing those things. And it's just working with that and being each other in that process without feeling guilty that you made the person feel this way or that you're feeling that way, or that the other person did something wrong or whatever it is. Yeah, well, amazing. So much wisdom. thank you guys so much this was incredible.

Leo: Thank you. Thank you for the invitation, the opportunity to share. We appreciate it.

F: If you want some more content from Leo and Luna, I would really encourage you to go check out my Patreon. I had such a great conversation with them around their wedding, which was very unconventional. Luna was actually the one who proposed. They had a solo wedding, so no guest. They also told us about the process of Leo making the decision to take Luna's daughter, as if it was his instead of having children of his own. And also just the process of introducing this new partner to Luna's daughter and how they actually made her think that it had been her idea for them to date, which I thought was super, super cute. So if you want to listen to that part of the conversation, please join my Patreon. If you are a Polycurious fan and you feel like you might want a little bit more.