Nick: My personal narrative to myself was like, it's harmless flirting. And Lamees, over time, helped me understand that it wasn't necessarily the flirting itself, like the words. It was more like the energy behind it. There was, like a seeking of, validation, like wanting to know that I could pull someone in even if I didn't, actually. And that's when I realized it was, like, so deeply rooted in my own insecurities. I was bullied a lot as a kid, and so I think I, had tried to work through a lot of insecurity, but then to just see it like full blast manifesting in these ways that were harmful to our relationship was rough.

Fernanda: Hi, everyone. Welcome to Polycurious. I am Fer, your host, and today I have my friends Lamees and Nick. And it's one of those rare episodes where they aren't non monogamous, but they actually tried it and decided that it wasn't for them, at least at this moment. And I like to have this sort of episode every once in a while because as much as I think that non monogamy can be amazing for so many people, I also really don't think it's for everyone. So if you might be wondering, is it for me, is it not for me? Today's episode might help you in answering that question. The reason why I wanted to have them on the podcast is because they've developed something called relationship fortification which is, a framework to have honest conversations about your relationship. Now, if you don't have yet on your calendar a relationship checking session, as I like to call them, go and do that right now. You have no idea how helpful it is to set time aside to talk about your feelings, to talk about the things that your partner did that you became annoyed with, to talk about even the positive aspects of your relationship. I personally do it with Seth once every couple of weeks, just like Lamees and Nick. But even if it's just once a month, I assure you it will make such a big difference in your relationship. And, let me tell you why. I bet that 80% of the fights you have is because you bring things up in the moment when you're triggered, when you're annoyed, when you're mad, when you're sad, when you're angry.

And of course, even if you think to say it in the best of ways, it's not going to come out the way that you envision it. There are studies behind it that when we're triggered, meaning our heart rate is elevated, we're in the middle of all those feelings, we're not going to be able to speak constructively or to listen to our partner when they respond. And, I'm sure this has happened to you. It certainly has happened to me when you're like, okay, I'm going to say this in the best of ways. And then you say it and it just comes out like, why the fuck did you do this? When you totally didn't want to start off a fight. If instead you just shut up, write it down, and come back a couple of days later, not only will you be more calm and be able to express your concern in a way that your partner won't get triggered themselves, but you'also have a lot more insight. You'll have time to process and think, why is it that that thing annoyed me so much? And what can I ask my partner to do better next time? Now, of course, sometimes there's things you cannot wait for, but the majority of the times it really isn't that important. And if you need some guidance in how to have these conversations, go check out relationshipfortification.coma. go follow them on Instagram @relationshipfortification. And of course, listen to this episode all the way through.

Because before we talk about their framework, we actually get into their previous non monogamous experiences and why they decided to be monogamous together. In Laisa's previous relationship, she actually didn't feel like non monogamy was good for her at that time and didn't speak up early enough. And obviously the fact that her partner was also not dealing with non monogamy in the best of ways didn't help. But if your partner wants to do non monogamy, you might find yourself forcing yourself into it. So listen to Lamus's experience and maybe ask yourself if that's your case because maybe non monogamy isn't for you. And that's totally fine. In Nick's case, he actually had, a more peaceful non monogamy's relationship before Lamees but he just knows how much work it is. So for him it was like, okay, well if La m prefers non monogamy, I'm good with that. Because anyways, monogamy is a lot simpler and that's also a very, very valid choice. What's important is, ah, that you speak up for yourself. And relationship fortification can be a great framework to do that if you're having difficulties. Before we start, I realized that I have never actually promoted my guide to opening up here, but I have a guide. It's totally free. I'm going to put the link in the show notes, so if you want to grab that, you can add your email and we'll send it to you. And it's very simple, but I find that it has been really helpful for people who are just starting out on their journey. And lastly, I'm going to ask you a favor if you haven't yet given us, a five star review, that is literally the only indication people have when they find the podcast to know how popular it is, to know if they're going to like it. So if you have found Polycurious to be helpful to you, do me that big favor. Just take two minutes of your time. A minute. Actually it takes like two seconds to just give a five star rating to the podcast. And if you can write a review, I would love to hear how Polycurious has changed the way you do relationships, what your favorite guests have been, or anything else that you would like to share with me. I'm always open to connecting with the community. On that note, my email is polycuriouspodcast@gmail.com and, our Instagram Polycurious Podcast. I've been posting a lot more in there. A lot of tips and tricks and content that I'm sure you're going to find valuable. If you like the podcast, if you love this episode and you feel like someone will benefit from it, don't forget to share it. And without further ado, here is my interview with Lamees and Nick.

F: Lamees, Nick, welcome to Polycurious. I'm so excited to have this conversation with you.

N: Honored, to be here. Thank you for having us.

Lamees: Yeah, thank you.

F: Yeah, of course you are kind of special guests because we rarely have monogamous guests on the podcast. But I think that you have a great story to share and also, a great method for having constructive relationship conversations, which I feel like anyone from monogamous to non monogamouss can benefit from. So let's just start there. I do want to hear about your personal stories and your relationship story, but before that, can you describe what relationship fortification is for the listeners?

N: Yeah, happily so. Relationship Fortification is our framework for having honest conversations to help your relationship soar. It's kind of like our tagline, And I think the you I'm happy to get into the history, but the intention is to just create a space where you can work through the challenges that you're experiencing in your relationship head on. You know, I think so often we wait until things really blow up in order to Address them. And so just having a predictable kind of cadence and a structure for working through some of the everyday issues that come up has been really useful for us and we wanted to share that with others. So now we're putting it out in the world.

F: Yeah, I love that. I remember, at your wedding. What was that? About a year ago ago, you guys did the relationship fortification workshop. And there's some things that I took with me that I'm still using with my clients, but I want to hear more details so I know how to better share that with my clients, with the listeners. So yeah, we'll get to it.

But before that, I do wanna hear, about your relationship history because you guys, I think, have always been monogamous since you started, but you both have experiences with non monogamy. And one of the things that polbyc curious is about is respecting all relationship structures. And I totally admire that you guys were like, okay, like we tried non monogamy, even though you didn't quite try it together, but with other people. And actually it's not for us, but you at least experimented and tried different things. So for people out there who might be listening, because we have people who are pol curious. Right. But maybe are not yet doing non monogamy, I wanna hear your experiences and why ultimately you decided, okay, this is maybe not the right relationship structure for me.

L: Yeah. So in my mid-20s, I, met someone who was much older than me. I had just graduated optometry, squirrel and I, you know, early on in the relationship he had told me that he want to date me, but wants to like, hook up with others outside of the relationship. So kind of like an open dynamic. And at the time, I know even though that was my first exposure to it all, it didn't sit super well. But at the same time, I wasn't emotionally attached yet and I am just naturally curious. So I'm like, yeah, I'm sure, why not? This is something new. but underneath of it all I just, you know, I was being thismissive or cool girlfriend who wanted to be cool with anything that comes up. and I wanted to be in a relationship, so I went along with it. But it ended up being a very toxic two and a half year relationship. So that unfortunately ended up jarring m experience around the whole field.

F: For like someone who might be in your situation where they feel like there's something that's not going well for me here, but I'm not sure if this is just how non monogamy is done or if there's actually some unhealthy or toxic dynamic going on. Like, what would you say was unhealthy in the dynamic for you?

L: Well, what was unhealthy is, you know, I pretended that I wanted the same thing as well. I pretended like, okay, yeah, cool, it's good to date, but I want to have the freedom to be with others as well when deep down inside I just, just wanted him. It didn't help that we got into situations where I felt there was manipulation or narcissism that came into play. And when I maybe defended myself at that point, it was kind of too late. But if we, you know, if we would go to, for example, like we went to a play party together and you know, his intention was for us to co create an experience together. But because I was't honest about my entire feelings when I went, I was protecting myself. So I didn't want to necessarily like see something that I didn't want. So then I ended up going and doing my own thing. And then that made him really upset and it just escalated and then he was like, well, now I'm gonna go and have my own experience. And it's just like, it just wasn't good. it was just a cascade of non pleasant things that happened afterwards.

F: What do you feel like you would have done differently now or what do you feel like when wrong there?

L: Yeah, if I listened to my voice, I would have just expressed my concern of what makes me feel good, what doesn't. One of my wounds is just this idea of not feeling enough. So it was just not expressing that wound. And relationships come as mirrors. They're meant to help you with address your deepest trauma. and so I didn't practice that opportunity. Instead I was just depressing it rather than facing it head on. So yeah, it was unfortunate because then he would, you know, take a break from the relationship. And then as a single girl, I always thought I was single, but he didn't think we were. And so then I would then go to play parties on my own. And when I went on my own, yeah, it was like all out there and experimenting and connecting and it was fun for me in those moments, which is definitely a lot easier when I'm not concerned about another partner being there. but then you would get upset that I went and considered me like dishonest. It was just this back and forth uncertainty. Are we together? Are we not together? And then they got to a where I was owing him, according to him, like I couldn't do anything. But he had the right to do whatever he wanted because I had to make it up to him.

F: Oh, I see.

L: And so then that really was very difficult for me because was there was definitely, like, narcissism involved. and at that point, I was just too weak, and so I was giving in. I was like, yes, okay, let me just go against more of my instincts to cater to you. You need this in order for you to get better. I'll hold that space for you. Despite me being not okay with that. and then it just. We got to a point where, we went to two play parties. And then after that second play party, he was just like, okay, this is not gonna work out. So that felt like. That felt not good because I felt like I was used, you know, to go to there and to interact and to create these connections. And it was just a lot of back and forth. You know, at one point I was like, why would I do this if I don't feel aligned? This was like, prior to one of the latest play parties, and he would say, you know, you do it for me. And m. Then by the second time, by the second play party, I was like, I am doing this for you. He's like, why would you do this for me? Kind of. It was just so many confusing messages throughout that relationship that made it so toxic. But all of our fights were around this topic. and I think it was just a lot of miscommunication in addition to some personality difficulties, that I had to deal with.

F: Okay, yeah, yeah, that makes sense. Thank you for explaining that. I think that aspect of feeling like you owe him something because you did something wrong or he told you that you did something wrong, it's something that, like, it's very common. Yeah. Sounds like it wasn't. It wasn't a healthy dynamic. Although I know that you recognize that it wasn't just him. You know, you also had, ah, a part to play.before we move on, from this story, you mentioned that one of your insecurities at the time was feeling like you weren't enough. Is that something that you feel like comes from your upbringing? Is that something that, like, you feel it still comes up in your current relationship? Because I also think that there's a lot of stigma around being. Oh, I'm not doing non monogamy because it triggers me and because I have certain insecurities or whatever. But we all have insecurities and triggers, right? So if for whatever reason, non monogamy triggers those. Sure. There's A way to walk through them. But there's also a level of acceptance where you have to be like, okay, it doesn't work for me because I have this particular trigger. Other people have other particular triggers and therefore cannot do some things that I do in my relationship. Like, it's not a better or worse. It's just, accepting whatever is that's going on with you. So, yeah, if you want to share a little bit more about.

L: Sure, yeah. No. And I love that we all have our own little triggers. for me, I'm sure it came from childhood. Maybe being one out of six kids was some of that. I love my parents, they're good parents, but there was'emotional nurturing at the time. They're better now. so I think it definitely started in childhood, but I never felt it until that relationship. And then that just stayed with me. That's a story that I carried with me in all my relationships afterwards, including my current relationship with Nick at the beginning. And so I just have to kind of now step back and talk to the little girl in me and just not be so hung up on this phrase.

F: What a phrase.

L: I'm not enough. Yeah, cause they are just words. And the mind, there's a lot of mind manifestation and whatever you say. So I've just been kind of not trying not to put a lot of weight into that, despite it sometimes having, like, physical reactions in me so I can mentally think about situation and be like, oh, well, that's just story. But there's that physical sensation that sometimes still exists till today. So, yeah, I think it started at childhood but didn't really manifest or was so much more exaggerated during that relationship.

F: Yeah, yeah. I feel identified. And it's interesting because for me, the I'm not enough sometimes manifests more in maybe professional settings or, when I was younger, in like, school settings. I've always been a good student, but because I left Mexico so young and I was all in all of these environments with people from all over that had grown up going to international schools and had the money to have better education, and I came lacking in a lot of ways, not speaking the language, et cetera, like, that kind of like, carried on with me. So, like, I still have that, like, you know, not feeling like enough thing. And as you said, sometimes you can be like. You can wake up and be like, I'm enough. I'm enough. I. I'm enough. But it doesn't quite translate into how you feel. And sometimes you just have to be aware of the feeling and know that it's just, you know, your own narrative speaking. for you, is it I'm not enough in general, or do you feel like it's only in relationships?

L: It's just in relationships. And it's not in all relationships. It's in romantic relationships. so, yeah, now I feel fine in other aspects of my life. but when it comes to romantic relationships, that's when I kind of shake. Whether it's a sensation of not feeling enough or being really, you know, it's being very challenging, to bring up what's going on, to express myself vulnerably. Which is why I feel like the framework that we've been using has really, really helped me and really helped this relationship because it taught me to practice something that I never have in any of my relationships before.

F: Yeah.

L: Except with my best friend.

F: Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting it only happens with romantic relationships because, as Esther Perel says, you know, those are the only relationships that kind of mirror our relationship with our parents. And I know that you come from a, conservative background. I don't know if you want share a little bit more about that, but I imagine your parents had great expectations of you, so that's probably why it only manifests in the romantic aspect.

L: Yeah. So, I am Middle Eastern. And, my dad was always lax. My mom was more conservative. She was pretty chill at first, but has gotten more conservative over the years. so that's always been, We've always had a little bit of friction. And when I was living at home, I made it a mission to just do really good in school, move to New York, and then live the free life that I wanted.

F: Where did you grow up, Virgina?

L: Yeah, well, my dad's a diplomat, so I kind of, I lived in Yemen. Ethiopia and Belgium were originally from Yemen and then moved to the States when I was 13. So I grew up in Northern Virginia before moving to New York. And so I just wanted to be able to express myself, kind of get into the things that I want and satiate that curiosity that I always had. Maybe it went a little too far. And now, you know, I was like, okay, I know what it's like to not be able to get into things versus have a lot of experiences under my belt. But till today, I do live a bit of a double life with my parents. I don't share everything with them, which is unfortunate because I feel like there's a lot about their child that they're missing out on. but it's just a matter of Acceptance and respect just to kind of keep the peace then I have to give my mom credit. She has come along so far. You know, I never thought that I would be able to marry an American non Muslim men, but he's charming. So you worked with the parents?

N: I learned a few Arabic words that went along way.

F: I love that. Yeah, I do remember actually when you were like, oh yeah, you know, I'm gonna bring Nick to m meet my family and being a little nervous about that and coming back and being like, oh, he charmed everyone, we're fine.

F: Exactly.

N: That was actually one of the things that we used our relationship fortification framework to tackle. You know, it's just like develop a strategy for how I can integrate with their family and make those connections that are so important. And you know, like I said, part of it was just like learning a little bit about their culture and like learning a few Arabic words here and there. Her mom and I both love to cook, so that was like a great moment to align and like learn from each other. And so just finding those opportunities and discussing them with mmise in advance was super helpful.

F: Yeah, that's awesome. and I do. We will get to the fortification, but yeah, before that, so where were you coming from when you entered the relationship with Lait? Also, how long have you guys been together?

L: Three and a half years.

F: Three and a half years. Okay. Awesome. You know, I saw it happening and it seemed like it was very quickly like, okay, we're life partners. Like you guys got married.

L: U.

F: which is amazing. But in. In terms of your experience with non monogamy and where you stood when you met lase. What was that?

N: Sure. Yeah, just a second that I definitely feel the feeling what you were saying. It just felt like, you know, it happened super quickly, you know, with me and Lamees It just like was all coming together and I I don't know for me, like, I don't necessarily think it's the case that like, oh, you know, love at first sight, whatever. But when we first started connecting, it was just like, well, if it's not herrt, I have no idea. It would be like I don't think there is another person. You know, it's just like everything seems to to click so well from a values perspective, from just a love of life perspective. Like, So it was. Yeah, we actually got married after only a year I think of dating like on paper because of the concerns of her family. you know, it would have been just totally you know, inolitic for me to Fre us to cohabitate without being wed. and her parents, well.

F: But you did, you did move in together before you got married?

N: We did, but we didn't tell him about it.

F: Oh, I see. Okay. Okay, go.

N: But yeah, that was one of the things where just like, you know, if it's going to make things easier then like why not? Yeah, yeah, so we kind of work backwards.

F: Yeah, that makes sense.

N: But yeah, before Lamise I was I guess the relationship before Lamise, the most serious one I was in for almost seven years. And about halfway through the relationship we opened it up and started exploring non monogamy and overall it was a good experience. we went to play parties and engaged with other couples on envful of occasions and I think overall it was, it was probably healthier than what Leise had experienced. And so when her and I connected I was more open to either way. You know, I didn't have a particularly strong preference for relationship structure. I think what was useful about experiencing it in the past though is I knew just how much work was involved in making non monogamy workuse. I like you were saying you think a lot of people don't do it in the best way and I think I agree. I think there's a lot to consider and maybe more than there appears to be at first blush. So I had like a certain revern for that and I think, you know, if I really was honest with myself, in hindsight looking at that almost seven year relationship, there were probably instances when we were using non monogamy as a band aid for deeper relationship issues that should have been addressed head on.

N: So in that respect, I think when Leisea and I connected and she expressed more of a preference for monogamy, I was happy because it seemed like a simplifying move, just easier to deal with. And soward the beginning of our relationship we had talked about having experiences with other people. So there was some openness there but I was like yeah, I think I'm content for now. Just like starting with the monogamous structure.

F: Do you change that idea of maybe having relationships with other people eventually or how did that evolve?

N: So we started to explore it and I think that was maybe one of our biggest challenges in the, in the very beginning, like both Lamees and I are naturally sort of flirty people. U and especially toward the beginning of our relationship when we were just getting to know each other, like I made a bunch of observations. you know, about her past relationships and experience with non monogamy. most of the friends that she introduced me to were. Were non monogamous. You know, lots of pololly friends. And so there was at least I think like a baseline assumption of, you know, acceptance or okayness with, you know, flirting and things like that. You know, as long as we were still like technically monogamous. And, I think over the years it started to become problematic in the way. Nine years more months. it started to become problematic because it was rubbing the mees in the wrong way.

L: Yeah, I mean, so we were dating for three months and he had just told me that he's 99% sure that I'm the one. and then we go to camp after, which I love and was so excited to.

F: Yeah, just gu.

L: Calling all magical people. It's an amazing festival, in Dlington, Maryland, during July 4th. so, yeah, so we were at camp and I, you know, like Nick had shared there's those underlying assumptions of what I would be okay with. And at the time, I just noticed behavior on his end that wasn't sitting well with me. Nothing manifested in physical actions, but it just kind of reaffirmed that story. Oh, that means he just told you you're the one, yet you're not enough. Kind of a trigger. Yeah, so that part didn't sit well. And then. So I brought it up at that time.

F: How did you bring it up?

L: I had brought it up, by expressing jealousy, over what I thought was happening. and he had confirmed that yes, he was maybe like interested in this person, but not really expressing to what degree. And I mean, I found out to what degree kind of like months later during repeated fortification sessions. And again, it's harmless. Cause it's a thought. but at that time, to me it felt like, you know, it just. It felt disruptive to the foundation that I wanted.

N: And at that time, to me, like to the point, it was just a thought, but I was also coming from the context of. In early discussions and structure and a relationship lim me being open to engaging with other people. So I thought there was, I think, more latitude and comfort than there actually was on theis's part, and then what was interesting though is like this issue, I think spanned like months, if not like more than a year, of just trying to like unpackage it. Because as it kept coming up, like, the mise would continue to express like, feelings of jealousy. And given her background with non monogamy you could understand why I was quick to write it off as just her own insecurities.

L: Right. But it wasn't just to clarify. It wasn't just a single issue that we were bringing up. It was repeated patterns with on multiple occasions of similar things happening, which is what we kept bringing up.

F: Yeah. And the thing happening, if I understand correctly from previous conversations, was basically Nick flirting with other people, which I can also understand from your side that you are coming into this community and this is something that other people have struggled with. Right. You come into this community where there's a lot of non monogamy around, you know, and a lot of sexy like, opportunities for like sensual experiences. And it's not just to clarify for the listeners. It's not like we are doing orgies that camp. Although I'm sure some people do. But like, okay, like we have a party party where everyone's wearing lingerie and a lot of people in the community are open already. So coming into this environment with, I'm assuming at the time the guideline was, oh, maybe we can do things together or something can be a little bit confusing to someone who's new. And maybe, I don't know, Nick, where you were coming from, but maybe you were like, oh, well, you know, it's probably okay for me to flirt because everyone's flirting with each other or because maybe one of these women could become more men. I don't know, like, could become a third for us or something like that. That is that kind of like what was going through your head.

N: Yeah, I think so. And I think that's probably why I thought it was more okay than it was. But I'll tell you, like, the golden nugget that helped me make sense of this whole thing is like, you know, as we were going through and having this same pattern come up month after month, like, my personal narrative to myself was like, it's harmless flirting. Like that was, you know, it's like nothing ever came a bit whatever. And Lamees like over time helped me understand that it wasn't necessarily the flirting itself, like the words. It was more like the energy behind it. Ah. There was like a craving or a wanting, like a seeking of validation. Like wanting to know that I could pull someone in even if I didn't actually. And that's when I realized it was like so deeply rooted in my own insecurities. And yeah, that it wasn't. That wasn't the words, it wasn't the flirting. It was just this, like, I didn't know how to say it other than just like a dark energy, you know, of engaging with other people in a way that also made, let me feel like, excluded. Like I wasn't prioritizing her. And so that was so hard to come to terms with because that's just like looking at the ugliest parts of yourself and be like, ugh, God. You know, I was bullied a lot as a kid and so I think I had tried to work through a lot of insecurity, but then to just see it like on full blast manifesting in these ways that were harmful to our relationship was rough. but that's part of the process. Right. It's like if you want the relationship to shine, like, you've got to put into work and you got to acknowledge your own contributions to it.

F: Yeah. And I think both things can be true. Right. Like, it can be true that it was, let me says, insecurity that was making it a problem, but also it was your, insecurity that was making you do it in a way that didn't sit well with her. Right. That felt like it was coming from wanting validation, as you said, even though you knew that like, you couldn't, you weren't going to like, make out with anyone or anything like that. So. Yeah. How did you guys use relationship fortification to solve this issue? Also, how did you come up with it to begin with? Because it is a very structured way of doing it and I think wonderful way of doing it. But very few couples actually take the time to develop something like that. I have relationship check ins with Seth and we don't have a very structured way of doing it. But even that, it's something that every time I get new clients, I'm like, okay, first thing you need to do, put those check ins on the calendar. Because, I mean, for many reasons, but the main reason is that if you are just bringing things when they come up, that means that you are going to be triggered when you talk to the other person. and you are not gonna say it in the right way. And then you are going to fight if you don't have a space where you can come ready to receive and give criticism and allow yourself time to think of how you're going to express what you feel is not going to be a productive conversation. so yeah, it's been immensely helpful for Seven and Night to have that. And sometimes I think what can be hard is that sometimes we feel something coming up and we're like, oh, especially because we're triggered. We're like, oh, I want toa say something right now. I wa want toa, like, kill him right now. You know? But if you are able to identify that that's what's going on and be like, okay, I'm triggered right now. It'not the best time for me to say it. I will bring it up later and then you can decide if you wa want toa bring it up when you have your check in or if you feel like it's really pressing, it's okay to bring it up next day or whatever. But more often than not, it'not that important. More often than not, it can wait another week and you can bring it up at a different time and,

N: Different time and in a different headspace where you're able to more clearly articulate what you were feeling without being hurtful to the partner. I think that's been one of the biggest things for us is just like, to be clear, we're not saying relationship fortification or any sort of relationship check in is a substitute for bringing up things in the moment. Like, if it's really eating you, we still, you know, talk about stuff as it comes up. But there's that moment of, like, reflection. It's like, does this need to be addressed now or can it be queued and you. We call it like building a topic queue. It's basically just like a running note on our phones of all the things that we want to discuss. And you go back and look at that. Cue, like, a lot of stuff doesn't matter.

F: Yeah. Sometimes you write something down and you're like, oh, actually, it's fine.

L: Yeah. And, it's helpful to, like, separate the emotion from the challenge. and for someone like me, it'sometimes it's really hard to find the words or find, you know, I'm feeling upset, but why? You know, and so when I really try to give myself space to assess the whys, it's helpful knowing that I can bring it up at a later point that's more clear headed.

F: Yeah, exactly. Like, I felt this way and then I was thinking about it, and I think I felt this way. Because you cannot do that if you just bring it up when you feel it. Right, right.

N: And then I think the flip is true too, where it'just like, oh, my partner did this to me. Why did they do that? You know, it's like when you have a little bit of that space, you can say like, oh, well, that was the day they were really struggling at work. Or that was the day they were super Sleep deprived or like you can look at the external circumstances, which I think is something you mentioned was useful for, for you. So just think about like what else might explain that behavior. I think in psychology it's called like the fundamental attribution error. It's like we tend to attribute more like do people's behaviors, we explain them more by like who someone is versus like the context or the environment that they're in, which actually has a lot more weight. So being able to consider that and see that and it's like, oh, maybe my partner isn't a raging bitch. Maybe she was just having a bad day at work.

F: Right.

L: Yeah. And you know, we also believe that it takes two to create a situation, whether it's good or bad. So, it's never solely entire. Like an argument is never solely one person's fault.

N: Yeah. Like, what did I contribute? How did I either make it worse or how did I fail to make it better? There's always something that you did as well.

F: Hey there. Before we dive into the second part of this episode, I wanted to tell you that if you're loving this conversation and want even more, you'll probably want to join my patron. For a low monthly fee, you'll get exclusive polycurious content. Things like bonus interview clips, solo episodes where I get real and share very personal stories and follow up interviews with guests so you can find out what's been going on in their lives since we last chatted. Plus you'll have access to a monthly support group with other polycurious people. Or maybe you are looking for more personalized support because you are in the process of opening up your relationship or you've been non monogamous for a while but you are feeling a bit lost in the trenches. If that sounds like you, I'd love to offer support as your relationship coach. If you're curious, you can book a free exploratory call with me to see how I can assist you. Links to both the patren and coaching are in the episode description.

Now let's get back to the show.

F: So how did you guys come up with this structure?

N: Yeah, so fun story. It was actually before for Leisa and I started dating. I was living in London and casually seeing somebody and she had never tried psychedelics before and they expressed an interest and so it's like, yeah, we can get some mushrooms and have a trip. And our relationship wasn't bad per se. but it certainly wasn't optimal. And we took mushrooms and had a day to ourselves. And within the first hour. So it ended up just being a very long and honest and calm conversation about the relationship and what was working and what wasn't, you know, and some of them were very hard topics. But because we were in that headspace, it was easier to navigate, you know, and just talk through it rationally. And so we came down from the trip and I was like, you know, that was great. I feel like we should do this more often. You know, we don't necessarily have to be tripping on troos to work in a relationship. We should just check in every few weeks. And then we never did. I moved back to the U.S. we broke up and that was that. Until I met Lamees and I told her this whole story and she was immediately down to try. And so we committed from the very beginning to having these check ins every two weeks and have been doing it ever since.

L: Yeah, so when he first brought it up, we immediately put it on the calendar for every two weeks. Like for peak.

F: Yeah, people listen to us out there. Put it on the calendar, even if you have to move it. Like it has to be on the calendar, otherwise it won't happen.

L: It's so important. You need something to hold you accountable and the more you see it, the more it ingrains it. So that was the very first thing that we did. And then we just started talking, we started taking turns. We just came up with the practices as we went along. You know, we saw what worked for us and then we're like, oh, okay, this is helpful. if someone interrupted, then be like, okay, let's make this like a no interruption rule situation. So it wasn't. The structure just evolved over time with us doing more and more of these sessions and seeing what works and what didn't.

F: I love that.mOkay, well now tell us what the, what the structure is. And if you, if you'd like to use, the jealousy example, I think it's gonna be very relevant. I know when we were talking about it, you were like, oh, I'm not sure if like people are going to relate to this because for non monogamous people, the fact that you were jealous about Nick flirting might be silly or whatever was like, no, no, no, no. This is perfect for it. Because I'm sure many listeners out there also experience jealousy and might want to express how they think maybe their partner could handle better their interactions with other people to make them feel more comfortable. So I think it's very, very relevant regardless of relationship structure.

N: okay, so relationship fortification as we practice it is four different parts. So we talk about prep, ground, share and sustain. And so prep is all the work that you do in advance before the session in order to get ready for it. Grounding is really about preparing yourself to receive becausee kind of prep is all about like what you want to share with the other. Grounding is getting ready for whatever day I want to share with you. Share fairly self explanatory. That's the session itself where you're kind of going back and forth and working through these challenges. And then sustain are just the little bits that help you continue the practice. for example we were talking about getting it on the calendar. That's like the first and last thing, you know first get it on the calendar and then at the end of each session like when is the next one kind of schedule or verify.

L: Yeah, exactly. And we do have a website that like lists all of these steps in detail.

F: Yeah. And for listeners out there obviously the website will be in the show notes so don't feel like you have to absorb absolutely everything. but just think of some key lessons and then you can go and check out the website after the.

N: Episode which is https://www.relationshipfortification.com/

F: There we go youy to remember.

L: Yeah so just at a high level with prep, basically it's setting that recurring day on the calendar that we discussed. For us we do it every two weeks. That's a good amount of time.

N: We try.

L: We do, you know sometimes things come up so that's normal. So we postpone it. But you don't want to postpone too long otherwise you, things slip, emotions build up and so forth. Nick had talked about writing your topics in advance. we think that's a really important step. We will think oh I'll just remember it in the moment. But most of the time. Yeah, most of the time you don't.

F: Yeah. I have a running note that's like called Seth or something and it's like whatever. If I need to talk to him about the dishes it's like dishes what? You know like all the little things caus. Yeah, you forget. You totally forget. But your mind forgets but your body remembers. So then like when day again he again doesn't do the dishes or whatever. Like I'll remember the last time he didn't even if maybe I forgot in between, you know and then like you explode. So it is important totally to address those things.

L: And like I said it can be a word. I mean Nick does like bullet form. I do paragraphs caus I have to like write out my thoughts. I think that's helpful. but it's also important on the day off to kind of groom those topics and see what's still relevant, what's not. If it's carrying a high emotional charge, sure, bring it up, but otherwise move or like let go of things.

F: Yeah. For me, sometimes I'm like, oh, well sh. Set did this thing, but he did it once. And he's also told me like, babe, sure, I sleet once, but you know, like, give me some grace. And I'm like, okay, you're right. So if I read that list and I'm like, okay, he only did it once, right. I'm like, okay, I'm going toa give him a pass. And then when he does it twice, I'll bring it open.

L: And the other benefit of like queuing your topics in advanceances, it just allows you to let go of the problem in the moment.

F: Right.

L: So it's not taking up any emotional or mental bandwidth. so that's a lot of the prepping. And one thing that we like to emphasize is also prep the positive things that you want to share. We always start with Nick will go into the details of sharing, but in terms of prepping, you want to share a piece of gratitude in the beginning and then share something that you're looking forward to at the end. Just to kind of ah, start and end on the high note.

F: And it changes the tone completely when you start positively.

L: Absolutely.

N: And, and positively too. It's like sometimes stuff gets heavy. Right. And if you just like try to go immediately into your day after that without having that kind of uplifting high note can be very challenging. It can also be very challenging to think of those high things on the spot because you're going through this slog. I shouldn't call it a slog, but through this process of trying to solve and address what are sometimes very deep challenges. So to then be like, okay, I'll come up with something, you know, positive on the spot, it can be tricky. So we really do try to encourage to like queue those up in advance so you have it ready to go. So the next step we talk about is ground. Ground is really just about preparing to receive the feedback. And that's kind of a mindset thing. It's, you know, it's very easy to feel like hurt or uneasy when you're getting this feedback. But you have to remember like why your partner chose you. It's like you're by virtue of having These conversations, they see something special on you. And I think that's important to keep in the back of your mind as you're going through. You also want to validate your partner's perspective or get ready to. Right. It's like even if they see it differently than you, it's their reality and you should be ready to accept and receive that.

F: Yeah. And there's two realities. People sometimes focus too much on this thing. T happened. No, it didn't happen this way. It happened both ways. You know, and everyone has their own perspective. And I think just instead of focusing on getting the facts right, understanding why the other person see it the other way, even if that's not the way you see it, it's very important.

N: Precisely. It's getting to the why. Right. And then I think just a couple other notes and like kind of getting ready is classic saying, but feedback is a gift. You, know to remember that going into the process I think makes it a lot easier.

F: M. And I think something that would be important to remember is not to take things too personally because I think that when your partner comes to you with an uncomfortable feeling, you often can feel like it's your fault, like you failed as a partner. So also knowing, reminding yourself to not take it personal and just hear where the partner is coming from without shaming yourself for having made a mistake.

L: Absolutely.

N: On to share. So this is like kind of the mechanics of the session itself. We always do like some kind of opening ritual. It's like either be a hug, you know, or a quick meditation. So we do three deep breaths or five deep breath. Yeah, I know. Yeah. Before every session, just something to create kind of a boundary between the session and the rest of your life. And then, you know, just starting with the gratitude, it's something you've appreciated. As Leise mentioned. And after both partners have shared that it's a matter of going back and forth, and sharing one challenge from one partner discussing that, another challenge from another partner discussing that. We have over time, accrued these four like session guardrails is what we call them that really help the sessions stay, on track and avoid getting too emotionally charged. So the very first one is don't interrupt. And I think this is one of the most important. It's just like when your partner is talking, you just shut up.

F: Yeah. And listen instead of thinking of how you're going to respond. Be patient and just make sure that you are understanding what your partner is saying.

L: Right. And trust that you'll remember what you want to say back.

F: Yeah.

L: It's that important.

F: Yeah.

L: I think we get up, like I wanna make sure I sa this back before I forget it.

F: Yeah. Or like I justify myself, right? Like I explain why I did the thing that they're complaining about and it's like, okay, wait. But like they haven't finished explaining why that was so upsetting to them.

N: That's what makes it so hard. You know, you have to bite your tongue. She's like, that's not right. Or that's misinterpreted or whatever. It's just like ye. Just hang back, take it all in. You'll get to it. Right. So that's the first and probably most important, like don't interrupt. The second is that idea we've been talking about of considering other factors. You know, as you're processing this challenge, what else was going on in life, like externally and what was your own contribution? You know, those are both factors that might have amplified the problem or made it more difficult than it actually is.

F: Okay, awesome. yeah, I love it. So within the share, something that I wanted to share with the listeners is this framework. First talk about their circumstances, then your contribution to them and then you say the thing. Let's take the jealousy, you know, instead of saying I don't want you to flirt with other people because it triggers me. Right. You think about the circumstances. So. And obviously edit this because this was your issue. But, if I was going to do it, from what you guys have shared, the circumstances are. I know that we just entered a very open community where there's a lot of situations that can be conducive to flirting. I know. So that's the circumstances, right. Like understanding where the other person has come from, then you can also talk about your contribution to it. Like I know that I wasn't clear on what my boundaries were around this and I know that we've talked about potentially playing together. So that can make it confusing and not clear on where I stand with non monogamy. Right. And then you say the thing, right? So like instead of going, oh, I don't want you to flirt because blah, blah, being like, okay, I know where you're coming from and I feel uncomfortable because of the way that you are interacting with other people, because of the way you are flirting with other people. So imagine receiving that as opposed to the just saying the thing. Obviously you're going to be more open to being like, okay, you know what? Like that makes sense. Caus you feel like okay. The other person, instead of being like, yeah, but, you know, you never told me about your boundaries, and I'm new to the community, and how could I have known? Right. Like, you kind of get ahead of that, and then it becomes again, like a team effort as opposed to you against me.

N: And sometimes it's like an either or. Sometimes it's easier to spot external circumstances versus your own contribution. So it's good to consider both. But if, you know, if only one is, like, making sense to you, I think just. Just something along those lines that kind of takes your partner's defenses down and shows that you've tried to consider their perspective and aren't just finger pointing.

F: Yeah. And something that I've learned, as a coach is that validation is so important. So sometimes it's not about apologizing for what you did, but it's about the other person feeling like you actually understand what the issue was. You know, And I think that, validating also where the other person was coming from, it's kind of very helpful in hearing someone else's perspective.

L: Exactly. Yeah. Accusations or assumptions or attacks never work.

N: And then if things do get too heated, like, it's okay to pause, you know, just take a break, maybe have a few breaths, and separate rooms if you need to, and then come back together when you've kind of rest stabilized.

L: Right. And it's also important to understand that you don't have to resolve everything in the same session.

F: Yeah.

L: and so, you know, just saying what we needed to say and then letting time do the processing for us sometimes helps. I think we sometimes get hung up like, no, I need to. I'm guilty of it. It's like, no, I need to find a resolution sometimes. I need to feel betteres. But the more you force it, the less you'll have it.

F: Yeah, that's so important. That's something that I've learned from Seth and that I find so valuable, which is sometimes there's no resolution in the moment. And, like, often these issues are things that don't have, like, an end the moment you talk about them. Right. And sometimes it feels uncomfortable to leave that open ended, but sometimes that's what you need to do to eventually come to closure. But just leaving it and being like, okay, well, we share our feelings. We don't have a course of action. We don't have conclusion. can feel not enough, but that's what you need to do to then be like, okay, let's talk about it in our next, relationship fortification.

N: Totally yeah. It's like we'll revisit it if.

F: Yeah. And it's okay. And it's okay to leave these things like that. And it's okay for there to be difficult things in your relationship, but that doesn't mean that you don't love each other. You can still continue having a loving relationship and having that. That processing in the background.

N: Yeah, well, that's exactly it. It's the background processing. Right. It's not to be underestimated how much a time can just do the work and things can get better. Or B, like how much subconsciously is like going through your mind in between those sessions that can potentially a solution reveals itself.

F: Yeah. Or not just in your head, but in your body. Right. Sometimes we just need. Our body needs times to process even an apology or whatever like difficult experience you went through. You just need to. Your body needs to release it and.

N: Yeah, exactly. And like the bigger the issue, the more deep rooted it is, the longer it's going to take. Right. Like the jealousy one was one that stretched for months, probably over a year because it's just like so ingrained and so, so deep. Right.

F: So how long did it take you to realize that the way you were flirting was also coming from your insecurities?

N: Oh, I don't know. Do you remember?

L: Well, it was. It was after a moment where I. It wasn't tactful in terms of expressing like how upset I was. So if I felt like I had to be a little bit loud, like I just asked him to reflect. Like you think you are like excessively flirting or like giving these mext messages because either of an ego thing or you're trying to fill a void or something. So he was. In that moment, he like it seemed like something just kind of like clicked.

F: And I like that you frame it as a question. You weren't like, you are just flaring because you are an insecure pastor or whatever. You were like, do you think this might be why? Like really trying to understand from a place of. Yeah. Just trying to get to the bottom of it. Not. Not blaming the other person.

N: Yeah. I think it was less than a year to get to that realization. The problem was even once you saw that like it's still hard to change the behavior. Right. Like there were still instances where I was fling. Even after that, like having that realization. I had to go through this whole like recalibration session, you know, u period where I really like tried to be super thoughtful and examined to the point where it was exhausting at Some points it was like, I just want to hang out and not, like, worry about, you know, how I'm presenting or if it's going to be triggering. But I think that was a necessary step. And then once I, like, fully integrated it and saw the patterns, then I could, like, ease back into still being fun and flirty, but not in a way that was like, harle too.

F: Right. Because, like, knowing that is not that, oh, I can't flirt because I'm in part of it, because I'm gonna trigger lam m miss. But I know also wants you to be your full, authentic self. Right. So it's more like, okay, I won't flirt because it's coming from a place of looking for that validation, but realizing that can be hard. Like, am I flirting because I want validation, or am I flirting because I'm being my most authentic self? Right. and also, what would Lamees be okay with? So it's like, both things.

N: And in full credit Lamees, like, I always acknowledge this. She was very vocal about that. She's like, I want to deal with this, but I also don't want you to be anyone other than yourself. Like, if that's your authentic selff and that's the way you show up, I don't want to ever block that.

F: I love that. It's coming from wanting to resolve the issue as a team and, being like, okay, I acknowledge I'm being triggered when you flirt. But I also don't want to impose my insecurities on the way that you express yourself in the world. And I think that's very important. Cause if she had been. Which, can also happen, especially in monogam. I mean, like, traditionally monogamous relationship with, like, you can't look at that woman or whatever. Like, some people might feel like they have to restrict themselves because they're not allowed to say that someone's beautiful or to even look at someone beautiful when it's human, you know? And I think Lamees you recognize that while also recognizing that there were things that made you uncomfortable. And it would have been great if, like, they didn't, but they were, so let's address them. And then it turned out that there was more to address that wasn't just that, you know? Right. Yeah.

L: And we always see it as, like, it's not me versus you. That's us versus the problem. So we just always try to approach everything from that perspective.

F: Yeah.

L: Like, we. I trust that he has, my best interest in heart. Like, fully trust that. No question. So I know, like, when I feel insecure in certain moments. That's just noise at this point.

N: Yeah. And that's, I think another thing that we've, we've noticed too is like, it's work working through these challenges. Like, it's hard and sometimes the sessions themselves are, are, in to say, unpleasant but challenging. There is usually a sense of relief that comes afterward. But I think that's why there's this important fourth step of like sustaining.

L: Yeah. Basically, I mean, just congratulate yourself that you did a session. It just shows that you care about your partner and you care to address vulnerable things. and then it's also important to point out progress, outside of the sessions as well. Like if you see that your partner is doing something that you had talked about, acknowledge it. but also feel free to take credit yourself for doing something that your partner wanted, you to do.

F: Yeah, that's so important because, ah, we are very quick to point out flaws, but when our partner corrects those flaws, we don't always take a moment to say thank you so much for changing what I asked you to change.

N: You know, And I think also like kind of being on the assist there, it can be useful as well. It's just like, rather than waiting for your partner to see it and thank you, like, you can help bring your own change to your partner's awareness. Like, ordinarily I would do this, but because of that conversation we had, I'm going to do this instead.

F: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's okay to say, did you notice that I did this? I feel also, I feel like I've also had situations where I don't see the progress. And then set is like, well, I feel like, you know, I've been doing this thing, I've been doing this other thing. I've been doing this other thing. And then you're like, okay, okay, you're right. Right, sorry, I didn't. I forgot to notice that.

N: And I think sometimes it helps to point it out in the moment too, versus waiting to share the progress in a session. Like if day to day. so for example, our trivial example to explain this whole thing is me brushing my teeth, and walking around the apartment, which oftentimes results in these tiny little flecks of toothpaste all over the apartment. Oh, not all over. but they are remarkably difficult to clean. And Lamees tends to do most of the floor cleaning in our house. And so she asked me not to, you know, not to brush my teeth, to stand over the sink. Like a normal human, rather than walking around the apartment. And so in that case, the day after or whatever, the week after, if I was changing that behavior, just say something simple like look to me some brushing white teeth. The bathroom.

F: Yeah. Sometimes I, you know, for example, the. Our fridge is not working and I always close it wrong and it stays open. and so it's always like, remember, you gott close the left, door first or whatever it is. See, this is how bad I am. I don't even know what the order is anymore. But like, whenever I'm doing it, I'm like, look, babe, I'm a good girl. You know, like whenever I do something that he's like, asked me to do, or for example, I always leave the scissorsce out. Like when there's like an Amazon package and like, I take the scissors out to open it, then I get distracted with my package and the scissors are just left there. So it's kind of like a joke because literally the whole of our relationship, it's been a thing. And then like set often, like picks up the scissors and it just looks at me like, you did it again. And I'm like, oh, fuck. But when I'm putting this isors back, I'm like, look, baby, I'm a good girl.

L: You know, for me, it's like closing the COVID of a bottle. or just closing the COVID of anything.

N: Rather failing to close the COVID of the bottel.

L: I never fully closed sets it on.

N: Top so it looks closed, it's not.

F: And then things spill.

N: Oh, everywhere we. So my, like, nickname for Lamees is miso. So we call it miso closed. It's like, is it closed or is it miso closed? It's like not properly sealed.

F: Yeah, we all have our things, you know, so, yeah, I think also calling out the ways in which you are improving in those things, can be valid and helpful. Yeah. Is that it? Did we go through it?

L: Yeah. So that's the framework, essentially.

F: Yeah.

N: So, yeah, just to recap those four steps, prep, ground, share, sustain is how we run our fortification sessions. But also wanted to acknowledge there's so many other people talking about similar things and so many other different approaches. So take what works for you, take what resonates. But really, like, feel free to make it your own if this is something that you want to try.

F: Yeah, exactly. I think what's important is to create the space. How you create that space is up to you. But here's some inspiration I borrowed, especially what we just talked about talking about the circumstances and your contribution to it, Starting with something positive. Like, I borrowed some things from the framework, but I'm looking forward to trying it in more depth.

Last question. So I usually ask, my guess, what would you tell to a polycurious person? I know that you guys are monogamous at the moment, but you were polbycurious once upon a time. So any words of wisdom for the listeners or also just any final messages when it comes to relationship fortification or anything we shared today?

L: I mean, for me, a big one was just speak your truth, no matter how hard it is. Like, it goes a long way. And trust that, the person receiving what you have to say, if they really care about you, they're gonna receive it well.

F: Yeah. And if you want guidelines on how to speak your truth, then you can do a relationship fortification. Right. Becauses it becomes a lot less intimidating when you have a framework. And I do feel like a lot of people just don't fully express what they're feeling because they don't have the tools. So now you do have the tools. So go and get them and make an effort to really say what you feel. Yeah.

N: Right.

L: And it's important to have, you know, when going into a relationship fortification session, like, it's really important for me, it's important to know that this is a judgment free, like, super safe zone, that I am, like, really free to express my darkest, deepest concerns.

F: Yeah. and that's another thing. I feel like a lot of people are in partnerships where it's not okay to express that you are uncomfortable, or you say that you're uncomfortable and then because of something that the other person did, and then the other person says, I did it because you did this other thing. And they like, turn it around. So also be mindful of the kind of partner that you have. Are they creating a safe space for you to talk about how you feel? And if they aren't sure, try their relationship fortification, but maybe also just leave that motherfucker, you know?

L: And then it's additive. Right. It's like, contagious too. Like, if I express something so vulnerable, then he'll feel okay to express something so vulnerable. And then it makes me then again feel even more okay to express something vulnerable. And it's just like, it. I don't know, it just brings us closer together. And it does release a lot of oxytocin sometimes.

N: Oh, yeah, those fortification sex can be great.

F: I love that. I love that. Yes. another thing. A, hack. I wanted to Mention is if you can hold hands while you do it. Like, there's studies that show that if couples are holding hands when they're fighting, they fight less and feel more connected.

N: Interesting. I feel like we've done that subconscious, like, sometimes in a really tough time, like, I'll reach out or vice versa. And just having that physical contact helps youah bring this together. You.

F: Yeah. You should add it to the framework. Hold hands.

N: Yeah, that's great.

F: Yeah. What would you tell to a bully?

N: Oh, what would I tell to a Polycurious person? I mean, I would echo what both of you said, like, just communicate whatever form that takes. Fortification, I'm obviously biased toward, but I think also, like, pay attention to the patterns. You know, both. What happens over time, I think is just as important as what happens day to day. So just having that level of awareness, I think is important.

F: Yeah. Yeah. Your triggers, your traumas, your patterns, the dynamics to that relationships fall into, for sure. Are we good? Was there anything that you guys wanted to. To share?

N: Well, I just also wanted to thank you. This has been such a great conversation, and, like, ever since we've met you, you've been such an important part of our lives. Like, just so much respect for what you're building with polyc curus, the intention with which you go about life, and just the amazing work you're doing, you know, coaching couples. I feel like you've been sort of an informal coach for us. Like, we've learned a ton just by being around and talking to you about these kinds of things. Thank you for everything you do.

F: Oh, that's so sweet. I'm so glad to hear that. Okay, well, this was wonderful. Thank you so much for being part of the podcast, and I'm sure so many people are going to benefit from this conversation.

L: Thank you so much.

N: Thank you