Daniella: So before I enter this relationship, I was really big on actions versus words. You know, if your actions aren't matching your words, I'm out. If we make agreements and then they're broken, I just feel consistently unsafe. And then just two years into this relationship, every single word he said matched his actions. So I started trusting his word and then his words completely stopped matching his actions. But then by then, I was trained to believe his words.

Fernanda: Hi everyone. Welcome to Polycurious. I am your host and today I'm talking to Daniella Guimaraes. She is a, non monogamous matchmaker and the founder of Velvet Ties Social Club. And today she'll tell us more about Velvet Ties. But also she shares how she even got into non monogamy in the first place and tells us about her experience with her previous partner where she felt like he continuously kept violating her boundaries. Now I feel like this has been a recurring theme in the past couple of episode how women experience toxic non monogamous relationships. And obviously it's not just women. But for whatever reason, the past three episodes have included a woman talking about how they did not feel safe and respected in their non monogamous relationships. And I do believe that there is a healthy and an unhealthy way to do non monogamy. And I'm always trying to show you what the difference is. And I think that not just in non monogamy, but in any relationship, this is a huge red flag when their actions don't align with their words, when they're telling you they're going to do one thing and then they do another. And that can manifest in breaking boundaries. Right? You explicitly ask them not to do this one thing and they go and do it when they had agreed not to. And again, it's not gendered. You can also be a man who's with a woman or a queer couple or trople or whatever. If you are in a situation like that and it just keeps happening and keeps happening, it's time to set your boundaries right and let that person go. Because if you cannot trust someone's word, how can you feel safe? And feeling safe is so important. So we talked a little bit about her experience around that. She also tells us why she prefers starting relationships fully open. I found it really interesting because I'm, one of those people that advocate starting a relationship closed and then opening it up. Because otherwise how can you feel safe exploring without feeling like at any moment they could leave you? And it's not like you necessarily won't feel that way after some time. But I think it's less likely because you can at least look back and say, hey, we ve built a foundation. That person has shown up for me so I can trust this person. But her point was also really valid. Like what happens when you settle into monogamy and you feel like things are going great, but you haven't really tried non monogamy. If you didn't try it from the beginning, you might realize the moment you open up the relationship doesn't work. So I'm actually starting to think that that's also a valid option. Last but not least, Daniella tells us how she started the Velvet Ties Social club. And what she does is really amazing. She brings non monogamous people together from around the world and they go to these multi day international trip. She also has more local events in Miami and New York. And her next big international trip is actually coming up, this summer and it's a Croatia Super Yatt TR. So basically for eight days, seven nights from May 31 to June 7, you could do water sports, explore the Croatian islands, join some workshops, fitness classes, or just relax in the sun. And at night there will be some parties, there will be dinners, performances. So it's really a well curated experience not only in terms of the type of activities that you'll be able to do, but also who joins. It is invite only. You do need to be referred, but I'm your referral right here. So if you sign up and you get selected and you tell Daniella, that you came through Polycur, you'll actually get dollar of this trip. Now, if you cannot make the Croatia trip but are still interested in becoming a member, you can also find a link for that in the show notes. And if you're interested in the matchmaking, you immediately become a member of the social club. If you say you came through Polycurious, you'll also get $500 off the matchmaking price. Okay guys, hope you enjoyed this conversation as much as I did. Here is my interview with Daniella Guimaraes.

F: Welcome Daniella. I'm so happy to have you on Polycurious and to learn more about you because I feel like you are one of those people that I've been connected in the community like at parties and we've like tried to connect a couple.

D: Of times, but for years now.

F: For years now, exactly. But we hadn't really had the chance until now. So just looking forward to learning more about your story.

D: Yeah. Hello. I'm super excited to be here and thank you for having Me?

F: Yeah, of course. You are, the founder of Velvet Ties, which we'll get into. I think originally from Brazil, but you've moved around. Take us back to when you were younger. When did you realize that you wanted to see more people or that monogamy just didn't make sense for you?

D: So the moment I actually realized I am non monogamous, I don't have an exact pinpoint on, because I think that was more about finding out about vocabulary and realizing that the community existed. But looking back since my first relationship, I always, you know, told my ex, hey, I don't really care what you do when you're not with me, as long as you know I like how you treat me when we're together. I was actually instigating threesomes at 15, so I think I was just always kind of this way without realizing that this was a thing. Right. That other people were like this. I grew up in Westchester, but I went back to Brazil when I was 12. So I was in the middle of nowhere, kind of like in a traditional Catholic Church environment. It was an interesting journey between, you know, not feeling like I was part. I was the same as everybody else. To actually defining that, hey, like having the vocabulary, I'm non monogamous. It wasn't like a linear journey because there was nobody to base my experience around.

F: Yeah. Do you feel judged in that environment?

D: I don't know. So I had a pretty good group of friends that we were pretty easy about things. It was hard to judge me when I didn't even know who I was. Right. So it's not like I was fully expressing myself and being judged for it. I just.

F: Yeah. You weren't like working our own, saying, hey, I'm not.

D: No. Because I didn't even know. Right. I had, had no way of telling people that I was something that I didn't know I was.

F: Yeah. And how did the treism instigation go? Did you actually make it happen?

D: so I don't actually think the threesome ever happened. I think we made out in threes at 15. I think that that counts.

F: Yeah, but you already knew that you had an attraction for women. Had you had experiences with women.

D: Do you know what's really interesting? So I grew up in a place where the gays would say that there's no such thing as bisexual. You have to pick one.

F: Mm.

F: Yeah, I've heard that before. And I remember being young and thinking, yeah, that makes total sense. Like, I don't know. Obviously it doesn't But.

D: So I think the second person I ever had sex with was a woman. One on one, but. And then after that, I heard so much. You have to. You know, you're either gay or you're not. But I was like, no, I definitely like men more. So I'm straight, 15. That I had sex with a woman. I didn't. That didn't happen again until I was, like, 24.

F: Oh, wow. And do you have it, like, any judgment around that or around having at all? Okay. Thankful.

D: No.

F: Okay. Awesome. Amazing.

D: I made out with a bunch of girls in between, but actually, that's. That's where it ended.

F: Okay. When was it that you were like, oh, there's a word for this?

D: I think the word. Actually, I discovered the. I think it came with the community. Right. Discovering the community with Aony. Monogamy is actually what brought the vocabulary. because, you know, you know, the word non monogamy existed in polygamy, and, you know, you see those in other cultures. But to realize that it was a thing in our culture and it was. It existed around us was really when I found community, when I started dating my ex about four years ago.

F: Okay. So it hasn't been that long, like, four years ago. And if you don't mind me asking, how old are you?

D: I am 28 now.

F: You're 28. Oh, wow. You're so young. I mean, I'm only 30, so, like, we're around the same age, but that's. I mean, that's impressive. You have your own business and you're doing so much at such a young age. So. Yeah. Tell me about your experience with. With your ex. how did he introduce you?

D: So we met, actually, at. At a bar. him and his ex girlfriend were looking to hook up with someone.

F: Ar. Yeah, they were here in Manhattan.

D: Yeah.

F: Okay, cool.

D: rest in peace, Old Gramercy Park Hotel. And they, were kind of flirting with me, and I was like, oh, this is interesting. But, you know, she didn't really like me. I think maybe there was too much of a vibe, and she kind of cut me out. And we just lost contact. We met many years, six years ago, maybe now. Lost contact and reconnected, during the pandemic. And actually when we reconnected one of our first conversations, when I hit his first questions to me, or are you seeing anybody else? And I actually had been seeing someone that I only just recently realized was a form of non monogamy. this person, you know, I was their secondary partner, had been going on for five years. At the time it was eight until last year when we broke up. And it of. We kind of lived in a bubble because he had a primary. They had a pretty strong don't ask, don't tell. She didn't want anything to do with, you know, his other lovers. so. And I was like yeah, actually I have this person that I've been seeing for five years now and maybe a couple other ones casually and I don't want to lose that for a new relationship. And he was like great, because I'm also seeing this person and this person and.

F: And at that point he had broken up with his ex.

D: Yeah, the primary. Yes.

F: But he still had a comt. And did you just reconnect because you had each other's contacts and he reached out when he brokee up with.

D: I think coincidentally we just got matched on Facebook on one of those like, you know what's like add this person as a friend. I think we were probably at the same party or something just in the geolocation. Just started serving each other up.

F: Yeah. It was one of those suggested friends that when you final meet you're like, well you already knew him. Yeah.

D: So when that happened we. It was. It was our conversation pretty much number one when we reconnected is we're going to be non-mon. If this turns into anything at all, it's going to be open.

D: So that's. That's kind of. That was my first official non monogamous relationship starting there. Although I had been dating someone who was married for the past five years. So I guess.

F: Yeah, no you had, you had other. Yeah, you had started before but it almost didn't feel like it. I guess because you didn't know his primary fel wasn't part of a community.

D: That's where I say my journey started. Because there was community and conversations around this and it was intentional versus just practicing it.

F: Yeah. And how did that go? Because a lot of people, including myself, like to have a container before opening up because sometimes you need to establish that foundation of safety and security before having that person seeing other people. I sounds like in your situation it was a little bit different because you were already seeing those people and you just continued seeing them while forming something together. But how did that work out? Was it easy to build that foundation given you guys were seeing other people from the beginning?

D: So it's actually really interesting. For me it's the opposite. If I ever need. I don't ever want to close down a relationship, but I would if I had to. If there was ever a moment for a reason that it made sense to. I'd rather start a relationship open to see that our quantity of openness matches and that there's no pain inflicted on how much connection we want with, a different partner. So I actually, I've heard it a lot that people rather start with a container like you and close and then open up. I'd actually rather start as open as, well ever going to be. And then if ever needed, we close it down. Just. I don't want to suffer because I don't want somebody else to suffer because I want more intimacy with somebody else that. Than they're okay with.I want to make sure that we're both okay with the levels of openness that we both want before diving deep into, you know, feelings and emotions.

F: Right before you realize, oh, we don't want to be open in the same way or something, and then it's too late because you're already in love and, you know, things are complicated. Yeah, that makes sense. I think the reason why I like the starting off closed, or at least for myself, is because it's hard to feel a sense of security when you don't have anything that the. The people your new partner is dating, don't have. There's no assurance that they won't go and leave you for someone else because they're just starting off with someone else just like they're starting off with you. So how could they make a commitment if they just started seeing you? They just started seeing other people and then they could go back and forth. In my situation, it was a little bit different because Said is monogamous too. So for us, closing at the beginning was very important so he would feel safe enough to eventually open up. Like, we couldn't.

D: Makes total sense.

F: We couldn't have started like that, you know. But I also see what you're saying, you know, if your partner finds someone else and they want to go with someone else, let them go with someone else. You know what I mean? And, that's fine in my case.

D: Where I don't think I could date someone that's so. The dynamic you have is so beautiful. It's amazing to see. I just read your article, this week on how your navigation through it was, and it's just so interesting, so magnificent to see the communication working out and just. I think it's all the best things about Polly and Open that you guys are able to show and navigate. But I don't think with my lifestyle I can date someone who's monogamous because I travel so much that if somebody's only depending on me to give them all of their needs, it's too much pressure on me.

F: M.

D: So it creates a little bit of a different. I haven't been for. You have an idea. More than a full week in a place in months.

F: Wow, that's insane.

D: The last time I was a month in one place was last summer. And it's because I was super intentional about it. And then before that it was probably March 2020 or during the pandemic when everything was shut down. So there needs to be some more level of openness on both sides, for anything to work out.

F: Right, That's a good point. Actually, I was talking to a couple that I'm also interviewing this season. She is. I don't know how to call her, but she's a circus woman. She like, joined the circus and is traveling a lot. And they were talking about how being open works because she doesn't feel like she's abandoning her partner and he can have his fun. And it, you know, it works in that way to balance. To balance the relationship out. So, he has other stuff going on while she's away. So it's kind of similarly to what you're saying. You won't be there all the time, so you want someone else to do, whatever you were supposed to be doing because you're gonna be doing your own thing, you know?

D: Yeah. And it's a little bit also about where what I'm living now. Right. What I'm looking for now in the dynamics I choose to start my relationships now, might be completely different in a year or in two or in five. I just know that right now, one, I. I just broke up from a pretty tumultuous relationship. Right. So the idea of having. Of falling straight into another primary partnership is actually really scary to me at the moment. So having, you know, I want a deep connection, I want the love and the affection and the partnership, but knowing that my partner has other partners, it takes some of the pressure off of me.

F: Yeah.

D: I'm not ready to make plans for 10 years from now and, like, start building a life with someone again, if that makes sense.

F: Yeah, yeah, of course it is fluid, but. Yeah, that's a good point. I actually, I recorded, an episode for Patron about how to stop comparing yourself to others. And one of the things I said was be relieved that this, you know, other person has attributes that you don't have because you don't have to worry about that, you know, and you can. Yeah. There's not that much pressure on you. And I think people sometimes focus too much on the things that they're lacking as a negative thing. Instead of being like, oh, it's so great that there's someone else feeling in for the things that I likeck that my partner name.

D: It's so funny. That's. It's a great example is there's a, there's one partner that I'm currently seeing that does. I think it's salsa or some other type of salsa. You dance. I danced electronic music, a session of salsa or whatever dance it is. Sounds like my worst nightmare. So imagine him, depending only on me. Like, either he goes with me or he doesn't go at all. No. I'm so happy that there's someone else to step up and do that with him. So it's like, I don't have to be miserable. He doesn't have to be miserable. We can all be happy. We just don't need to do it all together.

F: Ye. And it's just a perspective thing, right? Because you could be seeing him, I don't know if you've ever seen him d salsa with someone else and be like, you know, like, feel jealous and be like, oh, my God, I, you know, I wish I could do that.

D: You know, to me, it's the opposite. I'm like, thank God I don't have to do that.

F: Yeah, exactly. So, that's a great, great way of thinking about it. Okay, so, well, tell us. First of all, I mean, I have an idea of why you travel so much, but why haven't you been in one place for more than a week for the past, many years? That sounds like a lot. I mean, it's awesome, but curious if it's by choice. I mean, obviously it's partly by choice, but what your situation is or why you travel so much.

D: Honestly, it's because I can't help myself. I see. I promise I'm not traveling, I'm not adding any trips, and then somebody calls me with an amazing opportunity that most people won't get this opportunity in a lifetime. And how am I going to pass it up? So it's like part business because I'm hosting events worldwide. And then when it's not an event directly related to work, I have a social club. So any event I attend is, in a way, work. Right. So I have the perfect excuse to drop everything on a whim and travel across the globe to attend a Festival, it's networking, it's work. Hey, so it's. There's really no reason for me to stay put is the problem, other than my cats.

F: Yeah, I feel that. I feel that. I think I'm slowing down a little bit. Maybe it's like hitting the 30s. I'm being like, okay. You know, I also partied so much in my 20s while I was here, but I feel that, that so many times I'm like, okay, I'm gonna stay put, I'm not gonna make plans. And then it's like, oh, no, actually, like I want to do this thing or yeah. People invite me, invite me to stuff, and I just go, but yeah, tell us a little bit about like the events you are doing right now and how you are, you know, going around the globe. Why are you enjoying yourself socializing and networking at festivals and how does that connect to the work that you do?

D: Yeah, so I started the Social Club, which is really surprising to me only a year ago. So I just did a super yacht trip in Croatia for 32 people for a week. And the last day of that trip was coincidentally the date of my first event. So it was like the last day of that trip was my one year anniversary of the Social Club.

F: Oh, nice.

D: And I can't believe how much it grew. So I started with just like a small cocktail or 16 people dinners, and all of a sudden I'm doing 60 people parties and big immersive festival. You know, there's just the transformation between the year. I cannot believe it.

F: Yeah, I mean, just for context, I came to see you and you were chatting with your friend about throwing this party in a castle in Italy.

D: Exactly.

F: So, yeah, just to illustrate for listeners, you know, they kind of grow.

D: And as a party in the sky, we're throwing a party on hot air balloons in the sky. So it's literally a rave in the sky.

F: What? I didn't catch that far. That's insane.

D: Yeah, so's there's gonna be you. No party in the ground as well, but there's also a party in the sky happening simultaneously. So we've transformed pretty well from, you know, 16 people dinners to, raves in Italy in the sky.

F: Wow.

F: Amazing. How did you started and how did it grow like that?

D: The Social Club is, funny enough actually started as a marketing stunt for the matchmaking part of the Velvet Ties. Sovetise started as a matchmaking agency because just so many friends saw that I was in an open relationship, wanted me to match them. And it started as a marketing, the Events that were literally just marketing to get people on board for the matchmaking and get the Rolodx going. And it created a life on its own because I think nobody is really doing what I'm doing in the sense of throwing upscale, highly curated, non monogamy oriented events that are not play parties. So there's a lot of really upscale curated play parties, for example, in Manhattan, but not many events that are not play related. So people really were like, oh, I love this, I love your curation So I think that's just. It took a life of its own is really what happened.

F: That's awesome. that's awesome. Okay, before we get into that part of your story, let's go back a little bit. So you started seeing your ex, you started open from the beginning. How did things go? What, was that easy? And, and were you able to do what you intended to do? Figure out whether you were aligning your non monogamy or were there some difficulties with that?

D: Yeah, so we started during the pandemic, so I think that kind of warped our reality a bit because there were no external influences. You really couldn't see that many people. There was no traveling. Right. So we were living in a bubble both mentally and physically. so I think you didn't really, I didn't really at least have the correct perception of how it would be in the real world, you know, considering the pandemic is a fake bubble of a period of time we lived in that was just out of the norm. but everything started off great. We, you know, I don't, I'm not super jealous. I'm pretty easy, you know, with my partner. Seeing other people with, you know, it's also out of self interest. I want to see other people. So am I to say you can't when I want to? and then things started getting a little bit more complicated once the world started reopening in the borders. and I, I don't know that he really knew what he wanted. He was out of a divorce and then out of a back to back relationship for two years. He never really gave himself the time to grieve or really to understand what he was looking for. but I realized after the pandemic went away that what he said he wanted wasn't translating into his actions. so I feel like I kind of. And you know, it was impossible to know that, that. And by the time we were already two years in together, so it was a hard transition between a pandemic and.

F: Real life, real world. So what was he saying he wanted? that wasn't quite trag.

D: So he would tell everyone and tell me he wanted something monogamish.

D: Which today I know I don't want, but I never agreed with him in the first place. He would say, oh, we're monogamish. I was like, no, we're pretty open to say we're monogamish when we're both going on dates and trips with other people. I don't know, maybe it's just a definition thing and there's no real definition. You know, where the line is. But for me, we were always open. He would say that we were monogamish and he wanted a monogamish relationship. But at the same time, there was. I just didn't have a good overview of what he wanted. And I still don't really understand it because I would give him all the freedom in the world. And right now, when I look back, it seemed like what he really wanted was just to break agreements, to be honest, because I was like, you can have anything you want, just tell me what you want. But once we agree on it, it can't be changed unilaterally.

D: And I feel like I went through that over and over and over and it was just always the excuse was, oh, I forgot. I'm like, this, this is not possible. You do have Alzheimer's or something, because it's not possible. You forget every single agreement. So I still don't understand where the differences were between what he wanted and what I wanted, because I understand today that I can be full kitchen table Polly. I don't have a problem with that. So the level of openness on my side wasn't the issue. But he would call me controlling still. But I think his interpretation of controlling was that he couldn't un an out or break agreements.

F: So do you think he had like a rebel streak in?

D: yeah. So I don't actually know that there's any difference between levels of openness, which is, you know, what he says is true. I just. I really don't. I honestly, I still don't understand it.

F: Yeah, I feel like that something James happens, Right. That people think that other people are mad because of what they did and other people are mad because they didn't communicate that they were going to do that or they broken an agreement or something like that. Right. So I don't know if you'd be open to sharing some examples of like, agreements because, you know, it. It sounds like you, as you said, you were pretty open. So I'm curious to hear what were some of your boundaries, if you had any.

D: I'll give you one, super silly example. It was just we went. So I was I brought some people from my community in collaboration with another party. I brought them there. We had an issue, that party that I brought my people to had an issue with venues. We had to change venues in the middle of the event and that was super, super stressful for me. And it's a work event. Right. Even if it's not my event, if I brought my people, I feel responsible making sure they have a.

F: So this was after you started Velvet Ties?

D: For sure. And one of the agreements we have was just, hey, this is, you know, work event for me. It's being super stressful. I understand that it's, you know, a non monogamy play related event, but if you'd like to come with me, I need you to respect that this is a work event for me and I need you like this is not a plaything for you, you know, like, you know, you're welcome to play as much as you want anywhere else you want, but this for me is a work event. Please respect that. And then he's like, yeah, of course, no problem. And all of a sudden he's making out with someone. It's like, oh, I forgot. How do you forget that you're not supposed to make out with someone?

F: Yeah.

D: And it's like, oh, but it's just a kiss. It means nothing. I'm like, it means something because it. I feel unsafe if we make agreements and then they're broken. I just feel consistently unsafe.

F: Yeah.

D: So it's just silly things. It's not big things. It's, you know, you can have as many relationship with as many people as you want. Kissing someone isn't that much of a big deal in the act of itself. But breaking an agreement to me is, is one of the worst things you can do.

F: Yeah. And I think also how someone reacts after they break the agreement, that's also very important because. And I don't know how he reacted, but one thing is to say I'm so sorry, I totally forgot. My bad. You know, and obviously they do that every time, every single agreement. Then you realize that they don't really f care or they pretend they. Whatever it is, you know. But some people just make up excuses and you know, instead of being like, I'm so sorry. Yeah, as you said, but it was just a kiss. But like you didn't say no kissing or you know, Whatever. Like, putting them on the other person instead of being like, I fucked up and I'm sorry. And honestly, it's so hard to find men who cann ad meet fault sometimes. and that's one of the things I really love about my partner, that arguments, like, just get cut off so quickly because I'm like, babe, I'm upset that you did this thing. And then he says, I'm so sorry, you're right. I won't do it again. And we're done, you know, and he actually doesn't do it. He actually doesn't do it again. And, you know, I remember my previous relationships, and he'd be like, babe, you did this thing. And then. Yes, I was saying they would put it on me. Right. So then it would blow out of proportion about this, like, tiny thing, whatever about the dishes or this comment or stupid things just because the. The other person couldn't take us account.

D: Ab, you're overreacting.

F: Oh, yeah. Oh, my God, yes. Like, yeah. Gaslighting type behavior. Yeah. So women out there, if you have a partner who cannot take accountability of their actions, or men out there, too, because women also do that, for sure. I don't know, go to therapy, run away, run, run. Yeah, it's not. It's not worth your time. There. There are people out there who will take a accountability for their mistakes. And, one always put it on you, you know? Yeah, Yeah.

D: I think that's what. That's one of my biggest lessons. Before I entered this relationship, I was really big on actions versus words. You know, if your actions aren't matching your words, I'm out. And then just two years into this relationship, every single word he said matched his actions. So I started trusting his word, and then his words completely stopped matching his actions. But then, by then, I was trained to believe his words.

F: And why do you think that changed again?

D: I think just the lack of external influences.

F: Oh, the COVID thing.

D: Yeah.

F: Right. It was very easy for him to follow the rules when there were no women around to break rules with.

D: And his kids were around in the house with us, so he didn't really have that.

F: Oh, I see. Okay.

D: So.

F: Yeah, well. So how did things come to an end? you know, sometimes it takes a while, as you said, especially if you are used to trusting him and you already had that to your relationship and all of that, to be like, okay, I'm. I'm getting out of here. How did that, transpire?

D: Ah, we broke up in Brazil over New Year's, which was just A tragedy. He actually flew out a girlfriend behind my back. Lied to me about it. It was like a 20 person trip I was organizing with my friends. It was a work thing for me. It literally flew out a girlfriend behind my back, paid for her flight, said she was just going to be a friend, moved in with her, like literally. We broke up. He moved in with her. He turned. They turned into primary partners for four months.

F: Wow.

D: Yeah. And we, broke up then. And I was like done. And then we were talking about getting back to. I was. It was just so silly. I don't know that after every. How after everything he did to me in Brazil, I could even consider getting back. But sometimes we're just so silly.

F: I feel like most of us have been there. Ah.

D: I just. I look back and I'm like, I had no respect for myself at that point. Like after everything that happened, me wanting to get back with him was just no self respect at all. and then it finally, on my birthday, he called me and he was like, I want to get back together with you. I was like, this is amazing. Best birthday ever. This was like four months after we broke up and then we spent the weekend together and he told me that he'd been. During our relationship, he'd been having sex without condoms with other people and then coming back home and playing with me. I was like, I just spent two years really sick. I almost died over the pandemic. I had major surgery. I was in bed for a year for you to play with my health like that when you know, I just almost died. And that I have no immune system. I was like, I just couldn't believe it. And then I had a couple of his ex girlfriends call me up and tell me some amazing stories as well. And I was just like. I was like, that's it. When I heard those stories, I was like, this is done. I don't even know who I was dating. It's just actually really weird to look at the person that I was with for three and a half years and not know who they are.

F: Hey there. Before we dive into the second part of this episode, I wanted to tell you that if you are loving this conversation and want even more, you'll probably want to join my Patreon. For a low monthly fee, you'll get exclusive polycurious content. Things like bonus interview clips, solo episodes where I get real and share very personal stories and follow up interviews with guests so you can find out what's been going on in their lives since we last chatted. Plus, you'll have access to a monthly support group with other polycurious people. Or maybe you are looking for more personalized support because you are in the process of opening up your relationship or you've been non monogamous for a while, but you are feeling, a bit lost in the trenches. If that sounds like you, I'd love to offer support as your relationship coach. If you're curious, you can book a free exploratory call with me to see.

F: How I can assist you.

F: Links to both the Patreon and coaching are in the episode description. Now let's get back to the show.

F: I know that that's been your only official non monogamous relationship, but any lessons or anything you want to share with the listeners about that experience? or.

D: I think my number one lesson here is just don't be afraid to break up if something isn't serving you. Like, more like better things will come. My life has been better than it has ever been in my life since I broke, up. And just so much love and just so much care and just so much like my community stepped up. When I was suffering, I had friends drive four hours to come and check in on me. Like, just, just do it. Don't be afraid to break off what's no longer serving you.

F: Yeah. You know, and it can be hard because you do love the person. And when they tell you, I swear I'm going to be different, or they explain why they did what they did or whatever, you. You truly want to believe them. Right. And it can be really hard to get out of that relationship. But now that I have, because I also had a somewhat toxic relationship, it's already been a while, like eight years ago or something. But I'm kind of grateful for it because after you have one like that, you kind of identified the red flags in media immediately and you don't let yourself do the same thing again. Hopefully, hopefully, at least that was my experience. And hopefully it's. It s, you know, sounds like your experience as well. But when you are in it, you love them so much that it's so difficult. But now that I have another partnership. Right. As you said, you need to let go of things that don't serve you for life, to give you things that actually are meant for you and for you to live your greatest life.

D: it's opening up space.

F: Opening up space. If you're spending time and energy and it doesn't only have to be partners, it can also be friends, a job, whatever. The more you spend your energy in things that don't serve you, the less space you're gonna have for the best things, you know, to come. So now that I have an amazing partnership with Seth, I'm just like, I didn't know that you could have it this good, you know, I had no idea you could have a relationship so respectful and loving and where I feel safe and free at the same time. And when I see my girlfriends in relationships like that, a lot of them is because they don't know that a better, better alternative exists. They don't know that they can find a better partner. You know, and I don't know if you've had better relationships in the past, like healthier relationships in the past, but also, you know, for listeners out there, if you're in that relationship, it feels like it's so precious and so unique and. But love alone is not enough. And better, better relationships are going to come your way do you know what's funny?

D: When I was dating him, we were open. So I had the liberty of going out and making new relationships and finding lovers. And I think just so much of my energy was tied up around him and my nervous system was so unbalanced from all the gaslighting and manipulation that I could not find even a casual play partner. Since we broke up, I've had handful of the most amazing men in the world just with the most beautiful loving experiences and trips and travels and retreat. Like just so many amazing, amazing men fell into my life and it's had such a hard time finding one. And now I have like a handful of them just like ready to love me. That's aw, so interesting.

F: So that's where you stand now. Sounds like dating casually or are any of these lovers more significant or potentially becoming partners?

D: I think it's too soon to know.

F: Too soon to know.

D: Yeah, I have, you know, there's a couple that I've been in my life for 10 years and we reconnected recently and we've on, on a couple trips together. there's one or two that I just met that we're, you know, just figuring things out and just really enjoying each other's company. I really enjoy the no expectations at the moment. So just, I'm kind of just living and loving without having to make a plan or put labels on things. And I'm really happy doing that now. So I'd actually not rather, rather not think of where this is going. Just kind of enjoy where it is.

F: Yeah, you know, I think that's one of the beauties of non monogamy, getting off the relationship escalator and being like, I'm just going to enjoy things for what it is. And it's a lot easier to do it honestly, when you already have a primary partner. Because if you are kind of looking or wanting, which sounds like that's not what you're looking for right now. So maybe that's also why it's easier for you. But when you're like wanting a primary partner, it can be hard not to get in that. But what does this mean? But should we like talk about this? I don't know how, how they feel about me, whatever. But if you can get off that and just focus on the present moment and just trust that if that person is supposed to be your primary, like, you don't need to necessarily have a conversation about it immediately and you can just like see how things go. It'it's nice to just enjoy relationships for what they are. And yeah, I've been thinking about that, because there's someone I've been dating that we've been seeing each other for a while, even though it's been like on and off because we don't live in the same place. And I, I am starting to have those thoughts of like, relationship escalator, of like, should we have a conversation about what we are or what this means? And then I don't know. I've been thinking about it a lot this days and I'm like, no.

D: Why?

F: Like there's no, again, it would be different if I actually wanted him to be my primary or something like that. But like, there's absolute zero reason for me to have that conversation. But we're so accustomed to wanting to know those things and for relationships to progress in a way. But I just find that whenever I start thinking about that, then the relationships dissolve. You know, they don't last that long. So that's why I'm like not taking my feelings too seriously anymore and just kind of see taking things step by step. But it's kind of hard to get out of that mindset sometimes.

D: It's really tricky. It's where re. I think we're were trained to think what's next, right? Like we've grown up with, get married, have kids, have grandkids. But I, and I think that's something that's the same for monogamy and non monogamy. Right? Like there's serial monogamists as well, where, you know, they continuously date monogamously one person, but they're not on an escalator in a way because they just date for a while, breakup date the next and then over and over. But I know I'm enjoying not talking about, you know, we're making plans for the future. We're making plans of like, we're traveling together in a couple months. It's not like're but just a couple of m months.

F: That's it. You know, you're not thinking like next year or what does this mean? Or like putting a name to the thing.

D: I think even if we are planning like in a year, there's this event. You know, there's some things you need to plan a year out and maybe let's go together. But I think that's different than merging lives at the same time. Like living parallel lives together is different than, than like being in an escalator and actually merging lives.

F: Yeah.

D: So I think that's a pretty good distinction.

F: Yeah, that's right. And it's nice to be able to, I mean, especially with the kind of lifestyle you have to be able to do whatever with your life and meet when it makes sense with whoever you feel like meeting. Right. Because having that attachment u, can be hard of, oh, I need to stay in this place because there's this person and I made this commitment or, you know, whatever it is.

D: I think I finally understand the term solo poly, which is like, yes, I have love for this person, but I'm, I'm prioritizing myself.

F: Right. And I'm not looking for a primary. I think that that's the, that's the thing. Because a lot of people, I'm like, yeah, I'm solop poly. And they, they're, what they want to say is, single and non monogamous.

D: Yeah.

F: But that's different than being solo poly. Solo pol is more like I'm not looking for a primary partner. I'm just, yeah, priority.

D: That's where I am right now.

F: Yeah, they figure it out. You'solo poly right here. Right there. There, like therapy session for you. Cool.

D: Let me know how much I owe you later.

F: Well, yeah, you have a name for yourself. As much as we were like, oh, no need to put labels on things. that's awesome that you're in that stage of your life. Especially after coming out of a relationship like that. It's good to spread your wings and actually be non monogamous. Like knowing what non monogamy is and working like, doing that as well.

D: Do you know what's one thing I've really been enjoying That I hadn't, I didn't have before in my previous relationship is having my guy lovers together in the space M and it being completely FL free flow. Right. Like so over Halloween we did a. A suite. We had a private suite for 40 of us at City of Gods. It was at E M suite and I had two of my lovers there and one had his girlfriend there. The other one was actually at with his girlfriend at the party. Snuck you. Shes not fully. Shes not very kitchen table so they werent very part of the suite. But he snuck out and come hang out for. Snuck out in a way. She gave him a 30 minute pass. OK to come hang out with us and just to be able to go and kiss one and hug the other right back to back without me having to think about can I do this? Is this okay? And just the liberty of going between just showing free love is something I hadn't really experienced before. So I always gave somebody else that liberty but I never had that liberty. And just to experience that for me right now, that's one of the most delightful things that I've shown up in my life recently.

F: That's amazing. It is. I haven't quite experienced it like that but I've had you know, I've been at events where set is there and other you know, lovers of mine and not like I haven't been like making out with people in front of him but like he knows that I'm doing that, you know, if he's not around and like it's totally okay or. Or they're friends, you know or we have like my lovers over at a party at our place and it does feel, it feel really good. Like it like you feel like very accepted and see and just in general connecting people that you love is amazing. And I don't know like if your lovers knew each other beforehand.

D: No, actually they just met at this party.

F: Oh, and how was that?

D: I think they've both been hearing about each other.

D: It was perfect.

F: They liked each other.

D: I don't think they had too much time to bond but it was, you know, there was no stress N and just the lack of stress. For me it's just bliss.

F: Just. That's awesome. So how long has it been since you broke up with your ex?

D: Officially December 31st.

F: All right. You said New Year's okay, so we're coming up to a year just for people.

D: It took six months to actually break up between him asking to get back with me in April.

F: Right? Right.

D: No, in May. And you know, it's, it's, it was a long breakup. It was. Maybe I should win the word of the world's longest breakup.

F: But I'm sure, I'm sure there's people dealing with that for years, you know, So I think pretty good.

D: Yeah. So it's officially been almost a year now.

F: Okay, nice. That's awesome. well, tell us about Velvet Ties. How did you decide to start? Because before that were you modeling or what were you doing? Ye, yeah.

D: So I was modeling full time for the past many years. and you know, the pandemic hit. The pandemic hit. I actually got super, super sick. I gained a lot of weight. There was no way I could model. First of all, my body didn't allow it physically. And then I just. How do you lose weight when you're already sick? You're immune, you know, it's just. There was no industry with the pandemic. So I was just looking for something else. I've always been an entrepreneur. I think my first company I had when I was like 8 years old, a company, silly, right? But just I've been an entrepreneur. Literally.

F: What was it?

D: So I used to go to Costco. It was really funny story. I used to go to Costco and they had boxes of 30 chocolates at Ah, like Dollar and I used to go around with my box of chocolates selling each of them for $1.

F: Cool.

D: So that was like my first company like reselling chocolates at like 8 years old.

F: I love that you call it a company. Did you have a name for it?

D: Year old company. I did not have a name. But I mean that's, that's the type of company an 8 year old has. Right. But I've always done my own thing. I've never liked to have a job. I held a job once at McDonald's when I was 15.

D: but. And then I'd been modeling since and I just needed something new. I tried a couple other companies but I couldn't bootstrap it. I needed to hire, I needed investments and I was like, no, I want something I can do myself.

F: What were the other two companies? Just out of things?

D: They never really came out of the box. They were just. I worked on them for a while. It was. One was diversifying board companies, with AI. But it'just it took too much for me to do it alone. Especially when I was really, really sick and I had brain fog. So I just needed something a little bit more simple.

D: And with the matchmaking, the Events I could take on one client, plan one event and then rest until my body was able to do more.

D: so it kind of fit perfectly into my life. And honestly I just have such a passion for connecting people. When people ask me o what's your superpower? I think it's really curating humans. So I don't know, it's not even a strategy that I have. But it's like I find the most amazing humans on the planet and I put them together and you know, the sum of two things are bigger than this individual parts. So it's like I just, I put people together and the most amazing things come from it.

F: Nice. So the matchmaking, just so people know because you still have the matchmaking but now the social club has become like the bigger.

D: Yeah.

F: Part of the business. But yeah, just so people know because actually when I saw that coming up like on Instagram, I was like, oh, actually that makes total sense. I mean there'they are obviously dating apps for non monogamous people, but I don't think, I don't know if there were any matchmaking companies for nonous people.

D: So actually trademarked the term non monogamous matchmaking is my trademark.

F: Amazing. So you really did create something that didn't exist.

D: Yeah, yeah. And it's I've even tried. So if you're listening and you want to be a matchmaker for me, if you're based in New York and Miami, I've been trying to hire for a year. It's actually impossible to hire for a role that never existed before. Yeah, it's really hard. So I've been searching for a while.

F: And so how does the matchmaking work and how does social club works?

D: Just so listeners understand matchmaking, I take only a handful of clients at a time. I'm not taking any new clients at the moment. I have a bit of a waitlist for that and it's just, you know, I tend to couples to singles, anywhere on the non monogamy spectrum. I think the most common clients are couples that want to become a throuple or you know, someone who wants a non monogamous, monogamish open relationship that wants to get married, maybe have kids, but wants you some freedom and doesn't want to lie about it. So I think those are the most two common clients on the matchmaking side and then the social club again, I'm really focusing on the big international events at the moment. I'm still doing local New York and Miami, but I really? So I just did the super YT Croatia I'm doing. I'm actually planning right now for the winter and another super yacht week in the Caribbean. We're doing, Monaco for Formula one.

F: Oh wow.

D: Yeah. So we're. So I'm also, I'm following around the bigger events in the world. So there's a circuit around the world. Right. Halloween in New York, we did something within that. So I bring my community to really amazing events that are already happening and I curate a group. You know, sometimes you have two or three friends that you want to travel together, but things are a lot more fun in 2030 people.

D: So. And you know, not many people have 2030 friends that can just drop everything and go where you want to go.

F: And also that are non monogamous exactly. Yeah.

D: So I bring a group together of people that want to travel to events that are already existing. Or I put together my own events, which is for example, the party at the castle that's happening in July or the cruise in Croatia. There lives thirty two of us on 180 foot yacht for a week with workshops, dance parties, DJs, you know, two meals a day, exploring nature. So it's a little bit of a mix between attending things that already exist and creating our own.

F: Amazing. Yeah, that sounds incredible. Well, we'll have a link in the show notes. I know there's, you know, a little bit of a process, like a vetting process, but if people want to, you know, join the social club or the, I know the matchmaking, there's a waiting list.

D: Yeah, I think the best way, even if you're trying to get through to the matchmaking side of things, is just to attend an event. Get me, you know, get to know me a little bit more personally, have real life conversations, connections and then move on from there.

F: Sounds good. So for the New York and Miami listeners, and yeah, I guess before they could join an international event, they would have to join one of the.

D: International events are for platinum members only, so. And then there's like the entry level where there's the vetting. You know, I do open meetups where the vetting process occurs. So you have to attend an open meetup to attend any of the private events. All the events are invite only, super curated. So it's like I have to make sure that all the members, that everyone at the event is at the level of the other members. Right. So it's like my whole pitch is that it's highly, highly curated.

F: Yeah that makes total sense. Just so listeners know, this only applies for people who are in Miami or New York.

D: Yeah. And then if there is somebody that is out of town but wants to become a platinum member, we'll do a FaceTime and things like that. We'll go through it veing process a little bit differently.

F: Okay, cool.

F: So there's that option.

D: Yeah, it's totally possible. If you're completely on the other side of the world and you want to become a platinum member and attend our big international events, it's possible. It just. It'll happen virtually.

F: Okay, amazing. That sounds awesome. Anything else that you want to share with the listeners? I like to end the interviews by asking, what would you tell to a polycurious person? I know you've already shared your wisdom, but is there any parting words that you want to tell us?

D: No, I think, I think a lot in this journey is. Is about self growth. So one perspective that I think that really helps me get through the harder moments because I feel I'm not a jealous person at all. But there are some things that come up for me that activate me, that trigger me. I think just facing it with, thinking, why do I feel this and what am I going to grow from addressing this other than this is so hard. Perspective really helps get you through it. Right. So it's like everything that you encounter will make you a bigger and better person.

F: Yeah, yeah.

D: Just going into a hard situation, knowing that makes it so much easier.

F: Yeah, exactly. And you know, it's an outlook on live. If whenever you're going through something hard, it doesn't have to be about non monogamy, you think about the lesson within whatever hardship we are going through. And you know, even with my clients, I tell them, okay, you, you fought, the date went terrible, whatever, the threesome went terrible. It's just data points like, okay, what did we learn from the experience? And like really looking forward instead of looking backward. I'm being like, oh, you did this. You shouldn't have. You know, but just being okay, like we are learning from that. Or as you said, what are my feelings Telling me about myself, about how I want to do relationships. And it's a journey. And as you were saying right now, for example, you don't want a primary. Maybe you'll want a primary in the future. You also mentioned before we started recording that now you're more open to kitchen table poly and you didn't think that that was a thing for you. It's, it's a journey and every single experience, even if it feels hard or if it feels like you fucked up or whatever. It's a lesson, you know, and that.

D: Goes for most things in life. But I think non monogamy, dealing with non monogamy, when we come, most of us come from such a closed off environment. It's the perspective that really, really helps.

F: Yeah, for sure. Well, thank you so much for joining us, Daniella. This was awesome and so good to connect with you.

D: Thank you and thank you for everybody listening.