Josh: Aryn said, hey, you know, I'm kind of interested in exploring with men. I said, hey, Aryn, do you know what? I'm ready for this. Fast forward a year after I told that to Aryn. Aryn kind of subtly revealed that she hadn't flirted with someone because she didn't want to make me upset. I think then I just thought that by saying, hey, eon, you have permission now to do this, that was enough. And I think in our dynamic, in a lot of people's dynamic, that's not enough because the last thing that Aryn wants to do is hurt me. After I saw Aryn say that she couldn't even flirt, I was like, fuck. Okay, I need to make this happen.

Fernanda: Hi everyone, welcome to Polycurious. I am Fer, relationship coach and host of this podcast and today I'm talking to Aryn and Josh from couples therapy. Now if you haven't watched this show, you have to. If you're a Polycurious fan, this will totally be up your alley. It is a documentary show that films actual couples therapy and how or not the therapist who's incredible helps them. I will make sure to include a link in the show notes if you want to check it out. and even though the show, as the name states, deals with couples Aryn and Josh, my guest today actually went with a third person, Lorena who has actually also been interviewed for Polycurious. So I will also link that episode. I interviewed Lorena with one of her partners at the time, Aviva and Aviva's partner. And when I interviewed Lorena, she was already partnered with Josh. Lorena and Josh have since broken up and in this show they explored that relationship right where Josh is partners to Aryn and partners to Lorena. Lorena and Aryn are not partners to each other and how they dealt with non hierarchy with feeling prioritized or depriioritized. Super interesting. And today we don't really talk too much about that. We do talk a little bit about their experience in the show by the end of the episode. But today it's all about Josh and Aryn and their experience being polyamorous for around a ah, decade at this point. And they have gone through all types of different non monogamous arrangements. Having a triad, dating couples doing kitchen table poly, doing non hierarchies. But today we focus the conversation on two things. Their experience forming a triad and Josh's process allowing men into their relationship. So you've probably heard about the one pinot policy. There's a lot of bisexual women in non monogamous arrangements where their male partner says, I'm okay with you or us being intimate or romantic with women, but I'm not okay with men. Part of it has to do with patriachal ideas of men owning women. But in Josh case, his hesitation around Aryn dating other men had to do with his distrust of men in general. We talk a little bit about his process in becoming more comfortable with that, also kind of pushing areon to take that step. So if you're in that process, if you're a man who's looking to get over the one penis policy, get over your batrirch ideas, your toxic masculinity issues, this episode might be helpful to you. There was so much more I wanted to talk to them about and unfortunately we were at a studio in New York. By the way, this was recorded back in November, so it's been quite a while. and we had to cut the conversation short. But don't you worry, there will be a part two. So if you haven't already, just make sure to subscribe to the podcast so you can stay tuned. Now, if you find this episode interesting and you think that someone might benefit from it, please make sure to share it. Also, if you guys have any questions for Josh and Aryn for a part two, please feel free to email me at polycuriouspodcast@gmail.com or reach out to me on Instagram Polycurious Podcast and I'll do my best to get them to answer those questions for us. Without further, ado, here is my interview with Aryn and Josh from Couples Therapy.

F: So, Aryn and Josh, welcome to Polycurious. I'm so excited to chat with you.

Aryn: Thanks for having us. We've definitely explored so many different ways of doing poly and non monogamy over the decade, and it's evolved as we have evolved.

J: So, yeah, yeah, we've made mistakes. We've have a lot of learnings. Our experience continuously changes based on the partners that we have or the other poly people that we are, non monogamous people that we come across.

F: Yeah. And I think it's also getting comfortable with it being different for everyone. And the point of the podcast is to show many different ways of doing it so people can be like, okay, I resonate with that. I do not resonate with that at all.

J: Totally.

F: So, yeah, so we'll get into all of that. But before we do that, anything that you want the listeners to know about you? I mean, we're in New York right now. You have interesting careers and things you do. If you wanna share that.

A: Sure. Okay. Currently I am, a circus artist performing all around the world. I do contortion. I studied Mongolian contortion for about 10 years and I do foot archery as a part of that. And I also do hair hanging, Chinese pole duo, acrobatic, unicycle and hand to hand or partner Acrobatic.

F: Yeah. And for listeners who might not know what half of those things are, she's incredible. I've seen you perform at, ah, events and festivals and stuff that we've been part of and it's just incredible to see. It's really amazing.

A: Thank you. I've done this professionally for about three to four years. before that I was a product designer, experience designer, running an agency with a friend, designing mobile apps specifically about weather and data visualization. so I love the multiplicity of experiences that life has to offer and I think that also comes into in my romantic and sexual life. So, yeah, that's a bit about me. Josh, what about you?

J: So I work for foundation. Ah, the foundation focuses on three different movement areas. Criminal justice reform, democracy and mental health. I run strategic initiatives for the foundation. and there's also a venture studio called Galaxy Labs and we create companies for profit, nonproit and political that in some way or another strengthen or accelerate those movement areas. So I've been doing that for almost five years now. It's been unexpected for me. I came from a tech background and then in 2020 I found myself needing to do something with some friends, in the, political space. And that kind of set me on a trajectory to joining this foundation and doing some really, really, really interesting work, trying to help as many people as possible.

F: Yeah, sounds like you both have that tech background and being like, okay, now I want to do something that feels a little bit more meaningful. Tell us how you guys met.

A: Josh and I met in San Francisco about 10 years ago and we got burritos. we met originally through OkCupid and immediately I really valued his interest in building community and understanding, like people, creating a safe space for people and his, ah, you know, sense of adventure and traveling. And so I invited him to a circus show that was going to be at my house that Friday. That was how we met. And then about a year and a half later we moved to New York together. We both wanted an adventure and we got that. Josh, you want to add to that?

J: No, I mean, do you want to tell more about like how you got to polyamory or how you're like, the origin story of you and this sort of lifestyle.

A: Yeah. So I always felt that I was different. I had a different perspective on relationships, starting from high school. I remember my high school boyfriend was devastated one day, and he was like, I need to tell you something. And I was like, what? He was like, I'm attracted to a girl in the track team. And I was like, yeah, she's cute, cool. And he was, like, so upset at me that I wasn't jealous. And I was like, that made no snow sense at all to me. I was like, she's cute, she's nice. Okay. Like, he didn't do anything wrong.

F: Yeah.

A: At all. That's where I really saw clear divergence in how I saw relationships and how he saw relationships. He thought it would be a sign of love for him if I was protective over his love for me and no one else.

F: Yeah. People confuse possessiveness with love when, if you actually think about it, if you really love someone, as they say, you let them go. You let them be free. That's what really love means, not possessing them.

A: Yeah. So. But I was monogamous with him, you know, and I was monogamous with handful of partners up until college when I just didn't even know the word polyamory. But I liked this one guy, and I was dating him, and I liked this other guy, and I was like, hey, went to the first guy, and I was like, how do you feel if I, am m hanging out with this guy? I like him. And he was like, okay. You know, I just got everyone on the same page that I was interested in both people, and they were like, okay, that makes sense. So I just was dating two people at the same time, which I thought was reasonable, and they thought was reasonable. And apparently other people thought that I was Polly, and I didn't even know that term. fast forward till, Josh met or matched with me on OkCupid. Apparently he heard through a mutual friend that I was Polly who knew me in college, even though I didn't even use that term for myself at the time. And, yeah, he almost didn't go on the first date with me because he was scared or that didn't align with his understanding of what he wanted to have in relationships. And, But I'm so glad he did.

F: So why were you a little hesitant, to enter into poly at that point?

J: Yeah. It's funny because now, many years later, Aryn would be like, you had it in you, right? She's like, I knew that you had the openness and the ability and maybe the thing that you really needed to sharpen up was your communication. And that's so true. Right. I think for me, my background in dating and, what it was like to be in relationship with people was like very much lots of dating, multiple people. Right. And I think in the beginning, if I think back to high school, my small friend group, we would always hang out and very often we would just all hook up with one another. I actually remember, when I moved to San Francisco when I was 21, I had moved with an ex and with her, even on Facebook, we had defined our relationship as an open. You know, how they had that and the Facebook, you can put it in an open relationship with. Which is funny because I feel like if anyone actually asked me what that meant, I don't know if I would have had a good answer. you know, as we fast forward, it seems more obvious that I had more of a disposition towards this kind of openness. But I would say that before I met Aryn there was one person who I was really, in my mind, I was telling myself, I want to have a really strong monogamous partnership with. I'm going to take a big swing at this. I'm going to try really hard. I'm going to all my upbringing of what it was like to be in high school hooking up with all my friends, what my few years of college, of what it was like to be intimate in relationships with. I'm now like in my early 20s. I'm going to try and be monogamous. I started dating this one person where we had incredible compatibility, felt that I this was somebody who hit my criteria of somebod I really wanted to devote myself to. And I was feeling the most monogamous I'd ever been. She was like, not trusting of me and not trusting of men in general. And she didn't trust me from the beginning. Right. She had really a ton of hang up. And I was like, no, I'm the M. I'm so monogamous. Like, I'm here. I'm like super committed to this. And that relationship ended up like crashing and burning just because of that distrust.

F: Was it partly because she knew that you had been open in the past?

J: No, I actually think it was completely independent of m me. And that took me on a journey of just saying, like, I'm going toa give this monogamy a shot. And then that relationship ended and I'm on OK cupid and I match with Aryn and we have, Already her profile, everything about how she presented herself. I was like, whoa, this is somebody I really feel. I feel like it could have an incredible connection to. We m. Set up some plans and I realized that we had a mutual friend. And that mutual friend, I immediately reached out to her and I was like, hey, who's this person? I match with them. I'm excited to have lunch with her. And she's like, oh, yes, Aryn. She's Polly. You know, she's Poly. Right. And I had no idean. I wasn't familiar with that term. And it's just funny because Aryn wouldn't have identified as that. and I was like, damn, I'm really trying to do this monogamy thing.

F: But why were you trying to do the monogamy thing? Even though it didn't work with that person that you.

J: I think it was me just trying it. Cause I think it had been like, really the first time in my life that I was like, I'm gonna transition from just dating to more seriously.

F: Right, so you thought that if you wanted to commit, that meant mon.

J: Monogamy. Exactly.

A: Exactly. 100. So much cultural pressure. And to think that if you're serious about someone, it means monogamy.

F: Right. Like, I'm gonna stop fucking around. Like, that was in my 20s.

J: Now I'm gonna grow up. Yeah, I gotta be an adult now and I have to do what is expected of me. And I met Aryn and I was like, holy shit. Okay, well, I'll get over whatever I gotta deal with. Because this person is so incredible. And I'm excited to kind of just, pull on the thread of what is the potential here. And you know, first date, second date, third day, we become incredibly entangled and really excited about one another. For the longest time. We identify. We like called ourselves non monogamish, which is a very common thing that when people are starting off, they self identify as. Right. We're looking, we're exploring what it's like. We don't know what that means, but it's definitely not like, completely open. It's like lots of boundaries and restrictions and what feels good and what doesn't. I remember in the initial time of meeting Aryn I swear, knowing Aryn and how good she is at communicating, I for sure morphed what she told me into something else. But I remember having these conversations with Eriren trying to make sense of, okay, what does our relationship actually look like long term? In my brain, I morphed it into, this is about exploring together and this is about us Feeling connected and doing things that enrich our relationship. Right. I was like, okay, if we're doing this in service for our relationship, then I can get on board with that. And fast forward a few months. I have this schema in my mind of how this relationship's go, going toa go. And I'm in a group of friends and I ask some of the friends what their're experienced with, opennesses, whatever. And Aryn overhears me kind describing this idea around. We do it to enrich our relationship. We do things together. If we're going to be intimate with other people, it's going to be together. If we're going to explore, it's going to be together. And that night, she kind of pulled me aside after my friends had left and she goes, hey, I don't think I said that. And I remember my internal schema that I had created completely collapse. She goes, I don't mean that necessarily. I mean we'll enrich our relationship because we're taking care of our needs. But it's together, not together. Everything's kind of on the table in the future. And I remember being devastated and we were near the Bay Bridge on a.

A: Pier at night, wind blowing in our. Hair, completely, me catastrophizing this, like fuck, what did I actually sign up for? If it's not in service of our relationship and we're not doing things together, what does that actually mean for how we're going to engage and kind of explore the future and partnership and Aryn essentially kind of once I said all my fears and how this didn't feel so aligned with what I thought we were creating. Aarrion was like, well now you know. So what's the deal? Are we doing this? Are we not? And I was like fuck. I was like, now that you know what I might want, do you still want to be with me?

F: Yeah.

A: And I remember feeling particularly brave asking you that question so clearly and vulnerable. And then you said yes.

J: Yeah. And I was like all, let's do this. And so then my schema, was the right schema, my internal framework for how I was viewing the way in which you're gonna relate to each other and other potential partners. Right. And so Aryn at the time was really curious to explore with other partners and other people. And we started off okay, how do we do this in a way that we ease into this. So we start dating for a few months. It goes a few more months. It goes really well. We're thriving, we're Feeling super connected. So, Aryn had then a few months later said, hey, I'm interested in having another person or my novelty seeking side of my brain is really excited. let's maybe explore having a threesome or whatever. And I go, okay, okay, here we go. We're starting this, we're going to start this exploration.

F: What was giving you so much anxiety?

J: I just think, not necessarily knowing how to explore it and, and honestly how it was going to change our relationship.

F: Yeah. It's like a threatening idea that totally. Does this mean that again, the typical. Is she gonna fall in love with someone else and gonna leave me or 100%, is this the end of our relationshipah?

A: One thing, one concern Josh so clearly articulated in the beginning on the pier when we had the big clarification is he said, I'm worried I'm never gonna be enough for you. And I was like, wow. But if we're poly, you don't need to be everything to me. You don't need to be enough. You know, we can connect exactly where we connect and build a life together. And we can.

F: Yeah. Because we're poly, you're always going to be enough because I'm gonna get the other stuff from other people, so I'm never going to demand it from you. Yeah.

J: And so how the fuck do you start this process? You know when a cat has like gotten a mouse and then brings it to you and you're like, thanks for this mouse. thank you, but it's kind of. You're like, no, thank you, but thank you. I really felt like that cat bringing a mouse. Right. There was a situation at work, a whole bunch of us bro outht the drinks. One of the coworkers was like, hey, I had a dream about you. And then after kind of pushing, pushing, pushing on what that dream was about, it ended up being about wanting to be intimate with me. And I was like, ooh. And in my head I was like, oh my God, I have a mouse to bring to Aryn Right. And I texted Aryn and I was like, hey, I'm gonna bring this person, you know, home. How do you feel about that? And Aryn was well, you didn't say I'm going to.

A: But you said, we have an opportunity.

J: Yeah, we have an opportunity.

A: Yeah, you. And I was like, I don't know if I'm interested in her.

F: Yeah, without asking her either, I'm assuming.

J: Oh no, I asked other person.

F: Okay, you asked.

A: Oh yeah, she was down.

J: She was super down. Down. She was down.

A: but then Josh was like, trust me, I think you'll like her energy. And I was like, okay, but I trust.

F: Do you know her?

A: I'd met her once.

F: You met her once?

J: I y.

J: And we had this incredible experience. I love.

A: Beautiful.

J: So playful, so enjoyable, so sexy, so exciting. And that was in the night. Then we woke up in the morning, had more amazing, sexy, fun time, exploring one another. And she was like, I gotta get the fuck out of here. I gotta go. Go to work or do something else. So she kind of was like, all right, I'm out of here. See you guys. And I remember having a, completely normal rest of my day. We did all our normal things. And I remember at that evening being like, oh, wow. Nothing changed. Nothing. Nothing about my connection with Aryn changed. Nothing really changed about how he existed.

F: I mean, if anything, you probably felt more connected.

J: I'm 100%. yeah, absolutely. But none of those fears actually didn't even rear their head right. And that was a really cool first experience where this person who I was so deeply in love with, wanted to really create a future with, really dive deep with this experience. Kind of didn't invalidate that. Aryn was like, hell, yeah, this is awesome. And I was like, okay, I can do this, right? I can hang in this way with this person who I want to essentially fortify my connection in any way. M. Right. I don't want challenge. I don't want anything to potentially take away from this thing that I saw had huge potential for both of us. Then the second experience was something that was equally as earth shattering for both of us, which was a woman that we had both fel. In love with at the same time, which happened not too long after that. I'll pass it too.

A: Yeah. So, Josh and I met the second woman that we connected with. And we connected with her so deeply on an intellectual level, on a romantic level, on a life planning level. We wanted similar things in life. And

F: how did you meet?

A: we met her through friends at a, like, EDM concert thing in San Francisco, you know, And I remember diving into her PhD research in the middle of this EDM concert. And I was like, she's so smart. I love her. And then, So, yeah, we really. We really, That threw us for a loop because we weren't expecting to fall in love and have like, a wanting to have a three person relationship, but it quickly felt like that. And we had had this rule that Josh and I would only hook up with, women when we were together. And we still had that rule. But it started, she started making us question that. We're like, wow, but she's so important. Why would we also limit our her to only connect with us when we're together? so this is a theme that as we met certain people, we started to realize that the barriers or rules that we had, did it make as much sense when we got to know them and built very meaningful relationships with them. and I think sometimes boundaries are helpful in the beginning to make you feel safe. But then you realize that the humanity of the person, or the unique dynamic that you have with the people, is possibly needs to be recognized. And so that turned into this almost three person relationship. but then Josh and I moved to New York and logistically that meant that we basically couldn't pursue being so connected with her.

F: How long had it been when you moved?

A: We were together for like six months.

J: Yeah. I mean, full triad experience. Right. We were talking about what it would be like to get pregnant at the same time, all by a house together. Really having those future planning conversations about what it would be like to create a universe where we are super committed and super intertwined.

A: Ye fe it scared me. But it was interesting.

J: Yeah. And it felt. It was scary, but it felt so good. Right. With this person that we cared about so much.

F: That's so awesome. I feel like triads are such a beautiful arrangement. I don't know. There's like masculine and feminine energy and there's a friendship and like a group dynamic and all of that. And I know you guys are still friends with this person.

F: Right.

F: Which I think awesome

A: It's still such a close friend of ours.

F: Yeah. And is she seeing other people and that's why you don't have a sexual or romantic relationship anymore. Or how did that. How did you transition out of that?

J: I think when we transitioned to New York City, we just got caught up in the flow of being in New York. And after we separated, we just went less and less often, which meant that we couldn't really continue that relationship in the way that we had wanted to. And also she had her own journey of polyamory and exploration that took her to a whole bunch of different constellations that were really cool.

A: Yeah. Meeting her partners that she dove in with and the bay, which she did.

J: Yeah.

F: That's so awesome that you guys had that triad experience. It sounds like it was amazing. But for people who might be trying it out, who might be struggling with that dynamic, what were some of the things that you found difficult?

A: okay, I'll start off with one area that gave us a lot of confidence, which was just focusing on our connection with each other and staying really present. Because I think something that felt really difficult was, oh my God, this is such a weird thing. How are people going to accept us in the future? But if we just focused on. I really love spending time with this person and I really love thinking with this person and I really love, you know, being in a relationship with Josh and thinking and feeling in the present moment. So let's just see where it goes. So staying present helped calm a lot of fears. And then the other, just to say one other thing that was challenging was we were all involved in a big friend group. And when we, the three of us started getting together, we hid our dynamic, our romantic and sexual side of our dynamic from our friend group. And that left a lot of friends feeling confused as to why we were not inviting them places. And, I think that we could have been better or kind or, in the process.

F: So why did you choose not to tell your friends?

A: At first it was so new for us. We were like, oh my God, we're in a three person dynamic. Question mark, question mark, how is this happening? But it felt good, but it was, it's kind of scared us at the same time. And we just didn't have the confidence that it was a normalash okay thing that people would be okay with. so we hit it for like two months at least.

F: Yeah. And then eventually you came out.

A: Yeah.

J: Yeah. And I think there was this thing around, like this other partner that we had, didn't necessarily want it. All of a sudden get approached by other friends in the friend group, being.

F: Like, oh, you're hooking up with a couple. Do you want to hook up with us?

J: Exactly. So I think there is some of that. I think we were really lucky in our experience that it flowed really nicely. We were super compatible. It all flowed. Aryn she has very low anxiety in these sort of experiences. And because of kind of each of us as individuals, it made this happen much easier than I think it happens for a lot of people. I would say that we could have talked a lot more about it. It would have caused a lot less like, harm. The harm that was caused was from not being clear, not communicating enough.

F: How did friends react when you finally told them?

A: I remember one friend was like, oh my God, over here. I thought being in a two person relationship was hard. And you guys are in a three person relationship. He was like, that's like going into trigonometry and I'm over here doing algebra. but everyone was positive and honestly, by the end they're like, oh my God, that makes so much more sense. We thought that you were just trying to ignore us.

F: Okay. Yeah, yeah.

F: Hey there. Before we dive into the second part of this episode, I wanted to tell you that if you're loving this conversation and want even more, you'll probably want to join my Patreon. You'll get exclusive Polycurious content. Things like bonus interview clips, solo episodes where I share very personal stories and follow up interviews with guests so you can find out what's been going on in their lives since we last chatted. Plus, you'll have access to a monthly. Support group with other polycurious people. Or maybe you are looking for more. Personalized support because you are in the. Process of opening up your relationship or. You'Ve been non monogamous for a while. But you are feeling a bit lost in the trenches. If that sounds like you, I'd love to offer support as your relationship coach. If you're curious, you can book a free exploratory call with me. Links to both the patren and coaching. Are in the episode description. Now let's get back to the show.

J: I'm, trying to think of what are the other areas that were re difficult and then have become less difficult now. There was, I think there's something interesting around. Do the thing that feels right. Don't do the thing that makes Traegers all the insecurities or all the things that are difficult. Start with what works. Like I kind of use a, metaphor of being like, how you can explore just like a bunch of dials and you can turn down any of the dials that are really painful and you can focus on just what works.

F: Yeah. And then you can move to the more painful ones. Right. But I think people sometimes just jump into it and they really want to make the triad work or whatever. In your case, you felt reallyonected and it was all great. But other people, people are like, oh, I really wanna make this work. And they're feeling triggered, they're feeling insecure, and they don't honor that. And they're like, oh, exposure therapy, I gotta get through it and it's gonna get easier. And I always approach opening up like that. Like, do the least threatening thing, do what feels right. And then eventually you can move on to what doesn't feel that easy. And actually, on that note, one of the things we wanted to talk about is your transition from not being okay with en. Hooking up with men to overcoming that one penis policy, feeling better about that, which was very intimidating to you. So I would love to hear how that process was. Yeah, both of you.

J: When we started off the relationship, I was like, I'm open to all the varieties of how this could possibly look. I, I might need some time for some of them. And Aryn sleeping with other men fell into that category for me in the beginning. The way that Aryn would describe it to me was that it's like a cherry on top. We don't have to do it now, but we can look in the future. And if we're thinking about our relationship, ah, as something that has an incredibly long timeline, then there's no rush and we work with what is working, right? We had this rich experience with other women, and that was very fulfilling and took a lot of our attention. And so for multiple years, that just wasn't something that came up again. And it was a few years into New York that Aryn said, hey, I'm kind of interested in exploring with men. I just want to say that it's not an immediate thing, but at some point, that's something that I want to get back on the map, right? And for me had my own experience of trying to understand where my resistance was. When she said, hey, I'm interested in doing this, it, like, I put a little note in my mind. I was like, okay, how can we facilitate this if I'm not bi? It's not actually kind of difficult for this opportunity to arise if we're spending a lot of time with one another, if there's not a lot of space for other men to be flirty and hang out with Aryn independently. And I really felt like I was at a point where, I had to just get over my shit, right? I had such a rich, beautiful and fulfilling experience with these other partners that we were having that I really felt incredibly selfish, right? I felt like a hypocrite. And I told Aryn I said, hey, Aryn do you know what? Im ready for this. Like, Im ready for this. Im'open to you exploring this. And I feel really good about that. Fast forward a year after I told that to Aryn and we're in like, a small interaction with a group of people. And Aryn kind of subtly revealed that she hadn't flirted with someone because she didn't want to make me upset. And that felt very rough for me to hear. And that interaction with Eon shifted me because I didn't want to be a hypocrite. And I knew that it was, even with permission, still difficult to kind of get over the hump for it to actually happeneahah.

A: We had some kind of, hiccups along the way where I was like, in that year, I was like, hey, I have this opportunity to make out with someone. But I was like texting Josh, and it felt rushed to him in that particular moment. I didn't hear back from him. So even though he had said yes, but we had this language that we would check in before. And I was like, well, that language of checking in before also meant that if I didn't hear back from him, I couldn't do it. And so that was like, just creating enough of a barrier.

F: And then Josh was like, why didn. Didn't you do it? Or.

A: Or it was like two days later. He was like, man, I wish you had just done that. And I was like, well, I couldn't because we had this agreement that we would check in before.

J: Like right before.

F: Yeah. And, you know, it's so interesting because it's great to have those agreements, but there's also a level, and we were talking about this before, of just understanding that you can intuitively kind of know. Like, for example, with my relationship with Seth, there's certain things that we hadn't really discussed, but I'm just like, okay. I feel in my body that he would be okay with this or he would not be okay with this. So I had a situation, for example, the other day where, I mean, he's always said it's okay for me to hook up with someone at a party, but I had an opportunity where I could also have sex with this person. Cause I wasn't going back home that night anyway. So I ended up staying where the party was with this person who happened to be someone I used to date. We weren't dating anymore, but I felt, a vibe that night. So I went ahead and had sex with this person, slept over, and then went back home. And then afterwards I be like, hold on, we never talked about this. Like, he said it was okay for me to kiss and stuff. But we've never talked about, like, oh, can I then go and have sex and come back home and not tell you about it and pretend it didn't happen? But I kind of knew that he wouldn't care. So that's why I went ahead and did it. But then afterwards I was like, hey, babe, I just wanna talk to you. Because I realized that I don't know if I crossed the Boundary. But we hadn't talked about this, and I went ahead and did it, and he was like, no, it's fine, and you don't need to tell me, and it's all good. So I kind of knew. So I understand that you shouldn't cross boundaries or anything, but, it also comes to a point where you are like, okay, I'm pretty sure that this would be okay. And especially when you've been many years together. Right. Like said, and I have been six years together. @ the beginning, I would have never done that. Like, at the beginning, it's very important to respect all of that. But now I just kind of intuitively know what he's okay with and what he's not okay with. So sometimes it's okay to maybe go with your gud feeling and then afterwards be like, hey, I did this. Was it okay? And sure, maybe they'll be like, no, and he'll be a huge fight. So you also have to be careful.

J: Yeah.

A: It's surprising how much gray area there is when you have these rules about checking in and how that could really make, you unsure. But I love that you have the trust and intuition, and that worked for you.

A: Instead

F: Yeah. But I do think that it's something that you build because even in the story that you're telling that you weren't even flirting with men, even though Josh already had told you that it was okay. That also happens sometimes where they tell you it's okay for you to do this thing, but because at one point they told you that it wasn't okay, and then you assume that they said that it was okay just to please you or something, but they're actually're not fully okay with it or whatever. We also need to believe our partners when they say, I'm okay with this. which can also be hard because sometimes people say they're okay with things that they're not okay with. But that's kind of the basic. You have to speak your truth, and you have to believe what the other person is saying. Otherwise, you can't be guessing, playing a guess game.

J: I mean, I would say that that's so easy to articulate, but actually very difficult to do. Right. For people to feel that comfortable where they can really know and speak their truth. I think it's still. Sometimes it's difficult. Right. I think we've been in multiple situations with other partners and with each other where we thought we had that clarity, and, we've had to reassess or come back to it or we didn't realize that there was an element of it that we needed to dive deeper into and ask more questions about.

F: Yeah. And mistakes are going to happen. You can have a list of agreements and boundaries and. And you'll forget something. Every situation is different. So I think it's also about knowing that you are going to mess up and also not getting your partner is going to mess up and also not getting too attached to the mistake and just being like, okay, wellact. What did we learn from that? Okay, now we know this boundary. We didn't know this boundary because there hadn't been that situation. Now we know it's all good, which is amazing.

J: Right. I think we're so much more resilient than we think we are. That our relationships to people that we actually are committed with and exploring with, that we can actually handle so much more. And that this stuff, sometimes the fear of it is devastating, but the actual experience of it isn't. And so how can you take a little bit more liberty? How can you be charitable to one another? And how could we give each other grace as we're exploring these things that are inherently crunchy if you've never done them before? And so that experience was. We've gone through ins and outs of that where we've learned that we had to give each other more grace. We learned that we needed to be more flexible. We dialed down the things that didn't work, dialed up the things that did, and then we actually just kept moving forward. Right.

F: Learned a constant, like tuning.

J: Fine tuning. For sure.

F: Fine tuning. Exactly. And I also understand for people who don't want to do that work, because as you said, sometimes the experience is less threatening than what's in your head. But at the same time, it is a lot of work to figure out exactly the relationship that works for you.

F: Right. And some people are in for the work.

J: Oh, yeah, for sure.

F: And are down to do it. And some people are like, I can't be bothered. And that's also fine. Like, you are the type of person who's like, oh, no, too many conversations. Like, I don't like that.

J: We get that all the time. We get people who are like, oh, my God, that sounds like terrible to have to do all the talking that you have to do.

F: Yeah.

J: And I was like, hey, if that's the thing that stands out in your mind after hearing this, then you for sure shouldn't do this.

F: Yeah, Isite, I have to. I mean, I love talking, hence I have this podcast and stuff. And I love getting deep and I love improving the relationship and messing up and then fixing it and being like, oh, we did this together. I got to know you better. I love that shit. But I also understand some people don't. Yeah, no, than,

A: And Josh, I think you had more to your evolution of your story with, how you realize that you needed to encourage me and very, emotionally support me being with other men to me, because I was so afraid of hurting you that I was stopping myself. Y. I needed to feel your support.

J: I think then I just thought that by saying, hey, Aryn, you have permission now to do this, that was enough. And I think in our dynamic and a lot of people's dynamic, that's not enough. Right. Especially if it's something that has been triggering in the past, has brought up a lot of conflict. No, you have to actually really care a lot about how it's going to happen. Right. Because the last thing that Aryn wants to do is hurt me or cause any harm on me. And so I had to go through my own process of being like, okay, well, I don't want to be a hypocrite. It's really important for this to be equitable in the way we're showing up and the opportunities that we were having to experience pleasure and richness. And Aryn had done so much. She had met me with such openness and care and modeled such an incredible way for me to push my own boundaries and edges for her that I felt so obligated to rise and really meet the challenge.

F: What were some of the things that she had done?

J: Oh my gosh, there's so many. I mean, Aryn time there was that a gray area where I think that if it would have happened in reverse, I would have been super upset. Aryn met me with a lot of curiosity, wanting to hear how I actually felt. All that stuff actually modeled for me how it needed to be reciprocated. And I was paying very close attention, right? Because I cared a lot about that. I cared a lot about Aryn having as rich experiences as I was having because they were also so fucking generative for me. It helped me define my identity. It helped me understand myself better. Literally being with other partners taught me how to be a better partner to Aryn And I was seeing all this residual positive effects. And when I felt myself withholding those opportunities from Aryn because of insecurity or fear, I was like, oh fuck no. I need to totally switch this around.

J: I want Aryn to have the same amount of benefits that I experienced. After I saw Aryn say that she Couldn't even flirt because she didn't want me to be upset. After I'd been a year ready for this to happen, I was like, fuck, okay, I need to make this happen. What are the ways in which I can make this happen? And one way that is a very common and a way that I definitely recommend if you're going to start exploring with other males in the dynamic is to just go date another couple, right'there's? Like an equalness there that feels really nice.

F: Right. It helps to, calm your jealousy. The threatening nature when you have. Oh, the threatening nature too, actually didn't even think about that. But yeah, yeah, it's like, oh, that person has another partner who's present here, so there's no risk of them stealing my girlfriend or whatever. And also I can t fully be jealous because I'm also hooking up with this beautiful right hereah.

J: Precisely. There's like that evenness that feels like really attention. It takes up all the attention. Right. And so one on field was looking for another couple, right. Who would be an awesome other couple that we can kind of do this exploration with. We ended up matching with a couple and plan scheme, trying to figure out what's a good time for us to meet. We'll get a drink, it'll be super casual. Great. Their husband and wife, we meet them at a bar and they were talking about how just a week prior they had planned to hook up with another couple. And it fell through.

And so the story that he was relaying to us was that, you know, he was so excited. Him and his partner were so excited to have this really exciting sexual experience with this other couple. And they were feeling really fun and connected and they had done a few dates. For every single date they were like, are we going to hook up? Are we going to hook up? Are we going to hook up? And it never happened. And, the week before we met them, it was the time that they werenna hook up and they were so amped, they both shaved each other to make sure that they were like very ready and prepared. And they go to this other person's house, they had a hot tub on the roof. And it just so happened that as the two women were kind of running off to the hot tub naked, the other guy of the other couple leaned over to the people that we were having a cocktail with and said, I've always wanted to fuck a dancer. And that caused this couple to essentially say, what the.

F: Why would you say thatus? They feel like he was flirting.

J: Totally no he was just like, objectifying his wife in a way that really turned him off instantly into the scenario.

A: Like, instead of seeing her as a person, he wanted to check the box of hooking up with a dancer.

J: Yes.

F: Uh-huh.

A: Seemed belittling.

J: And so it was just funny, right. Because we're out the cocktails, there's relaying this story about how they didn't have sex with this other couple that they were going to explore.

F: Yeah. Because the guy they were gonna have sex with made a comment about her.

J: Yes, exactly.

F: A dancer.

J: And then he kind of was like, sorry, we can't do this. And they ended up leaving. And that's them relaying that to us and that we're the next couple that they've decided to kind of engage with. And it was like in that moment that I realized that my issues with men is that I don't trust men. Oh. Because the moment with this couple that the man told me that story, I was like. In my head, I was like, Aryn can do whatever the fuck she wants with this guy. This guy's awesome, huh? He gets exactly how I would have reacted in that scenario.

F: Oh, that's interesting.

J: Felt I was like, oh, holy shit. And I went through my own journey of understanding and having to reflect about my own distrust of men in general. Right. And that my resistance to Aryn being intimate, all the agitation that I experienced was so much around. I didn't trust men.

F: You didn't trust them to what?

J: To take care of Aryn the way that I think she deserved to be treated. Just that person telling me that story. And all of a sudden, all those fears dissipating with that person really showed me that it's actually who Aryn is with that I care about more than it being a man. And then I had to go through another journey of just knowing that Aryn has really good taste in people.

F: Right. I was gonna say, you don't trust men, but maybe you can trust that she can pick the right. Yeah, you find the good ones. I mean, we've been dealing with men for long time.

J: I.

F: At some point you gotta just trust. Yeah, you do have some missteps. But at some point you're like, okay, now I know which ones are the good ones. And then they fucking always surprise you. No, I'm kidding.

J: But I think that that was, for me, it helps you build that unlocked a lot for me. Right?

F: Yeah.

J: When I was able to be like, oh, this shit that I'm projecting onto the scenario was my own thing that I need to process and work on and get better at and deal with. And then obviously the next follow on was just being like, hey, actually Ayrn's really good at finding people who are awesome.

F: Yeah. So did you hook up with that couple?

J: We did.

A: We did.

J: It was fucking awesome.

F: Oh, I love that.

J: And we still like them and we're friends with them.

F: Oh, that's awesome. And how was the actual experience of it, like seeing her being fucked by someone else?

J: Super fun? I mean, it was all. I mean, that's not the thing that really gets me excited. So I'm not. That's not.

F: It wasn't a turn on, but it wasn't.

F: It wasn't a trigger either.

J: It wasn't a trigger. Yeah, exactly. So that was awesome. Right? I was like, oh, this felt kind of going back to that first experience of the mouse me bringing. Right. It was like, oh, actually this does not affect our relationship has no negative consequences. And it gets to be really generative and fun and playful. Right. And then that opened, that created more of a crack. And then we were able to kind of continue and explore from there. And that experience being such an awesome experience.

F: I love that. Yeah, yeah. And how did things evolve from there? When did you, start dating other men separately?

A: M m. It took a few more evolutions, I think. You know, one theme that's been interesting has been like, sometimes we feel like rules or boundaries can help make us feel safe. And then sometimes we start to realize, oh, they're actually like, inhibiting us more. So after Josh and I had the good experience with dating the couple maybe six months to a year later, I was like, I got Josh on the phone and I was like, hey, this guy'coming over. I think I like him. I think he likes me. If I tell him about you and us and everything checks out, can I hook up with him? And Josh objectively was like, u, that sounds okay, but I feel too rushed to make this decision. I don't feel comfortable. You're rushing me. And I was like, okay, I guess it won't happen. But then sat. Josh sat with it for like 20 minutes, called me back and was like, Aryn, I want you to have a good time.

F: Yeah. And how was that experience?

J: I mean, again, it was fine.

F: Yeah, it was fine.

J: It was just a non issue. Yeah, right. Like, actually, again, this is another one of those things where as you got closer to it, it became scary. But then when you just had a second breathe and then it started to happen and it happened. You're like, oh, ak Actually that was the non issue.

F: Yeah. And there's so much that we need to get over. Like, for me, it was this fear that there was something wrong in my relationship. Whenever I had feelings for someone else and I would freak out. I'd be like, oh man, am I gonna break up with Seth? Am, I going to want to go on trips or spend more time with this person? And said it's not going to be okay with it. I would get ahead of myself. But my relationship with Seth was totally fine. Everything was fine. But it's just this idea of if you have feelings for someone other than your partner, that means that there's something wrong with your partnership. And then you do it and then you're like, oh, no, actually I can have feelings for someone and my relationship is good. Oh, it's fine. But sometimes, even if you know it in your head, you have to go through the experience to feel it in your body. And sometimes, yes, the experience is threatening and terrible and m. Whatever. And you learn.

F: But.

F: But as you said, I think most of the times it's worse in your head than in reality and you just have to figure things out, you know?

J: Yeah, totally. And again, if we're going on themes of like, the relationship is actually super resilient, there's something really important here on modeling, right. Like, if you look at every new experience that you're experiencing. For instance, if Aryn does something that I didn't really expect and I have a triggering feeling, how I handle that conflict is an opportunity for me to have that reciprocated.

J: M. So it's really cool to really own that and go, what is the best way that I could possibly handle this?

F: Why would I want her to handle this for me?

J: Exactly. Because that's gonna happen in these spaces. That happens all the time. Something nuanced happens, something unexpected happens, Somebody drops the ball on a boundary or there's some confusion. And so if you look at as an opportunity to model a way that you would want to be reciprocated, it really helps. It's really helpful. And Aryn had done such an incredible job at continuously modeling for me incredible ways about receiving highly charged, highly difficult concepts that I would have struggled with. I really felt obligated to do a really good job in reciprocating.

F: Yeah, right. Yeah, I love that. we haven't really gotten to talk about this, but you guys were part of couples therapy. The show, not just the therapy. Although you did go to therapy on camera for the show. So just for people who are not familiar? the show films well, mostly couples, I think. Right.

A: It'only three person dynamic polycule on the show.

J: Yes, exactly.

A: Otherwise it's said real couples going to real therapy.

F: Yeah. Which is fascinating. And when you guys film that, it was also. The therapy was also with Lorena who's Josh. Ex partner, but at that point, partner. So the reason why I'm bringing up the show is because one of the things that comes up there is that R and U are, very accommodating. Right. I was curious about that. kind of related to what you were saying, Josh, that she's model such kindness and compassion and all of that. A lot of people are people pleasers. And how do you deal with that in a dynamic? The one you have. Have you found that sometimes you are too much of a people pleaser and too okay, but you're actually maybe not that okay with things?

A: Yeah, that's a really good question. I do think I have a high degree of people pleasing and a high degree of accommodating and wanting to adapt. And it makes it really hard for me to set clear boundaries. But I also think the flip side of it is I'm genuinely so open to a lot of possibilities and how dynamics will emerge. And I think it takes away a lot of the acute stress of any situation because I realize it's about, you know, my true happiness. Josh'true happiness. And while situations may come up that don't feel good, I sort of have this really long term vision of like, is this really gonna matter in a few years? Is this particular thing you. So it feels like simultaneously people pleasing, but also like a existential resiliency. And honestly, it's also hard for me to differentiate when I'm being whichich. Cause I think one is bad and one's good.

F: Yeah. One is like, I'm going to be fine no matter what. I don't need to control every little single person. Exactly. And the other one is. Yeah, it's fine. It's fine. It's fin.

A: It's fine. And I'm just saying it's fine so that I don't create a tense situation for me or Josh or Josh's partner. You know, how do I deal with that? I don't know.

F: Yeah. Well, I think that just by recognizing that there's a distinction there and that there's some positives, like Josh seeing you being so accommodating made him want to also be very accommodating and kind and all of those things. But also knowing that you can slee into the people pleasing arena or not honoring your truth arena. So I think that's,

A: And something that actually the show did help me recognize. We did psychological evaluations before the show, and the therapist, before the show even started, said Aryn, the probably the most important thing for you to realize about your own psyche is that when you feel something is a 4 out of 10 important or 10, it probably would have been a 9 out of 10 importance for someone else. And so you should say something when something starts to get, a four out of ten important or stressful. And so I've been trying to say, you know, what I'm feeling at a sooner time, you know, and then Josh and I have been discussing this, and Josh has also flagged it in his mind. Oh, if Aaron's bringing something up, that means that I need to actually listen more.

F: Yeah. Even if she's chill about it.

A: Even if I'm chill about it. Josh is leveled up his. I need to hear this as louder than Aryn is saying it.

F: Yeah. Because she's not the loud type.

J: not. Ah, I won't say it loudly.

F: Yeah.

J: Yeah.

F: That's so interesting. after having had that experience in the show, is there anything that you guys want to share?

A: Wow. So many things.

J: Yeah. I mean, the experience was really. It was really tough. Right. It was super intense. And the reason why we went on the show, there was a few. Right. Number one, we've seen Oma’s work. We saw her in previous seasons. Right, the therapist. Yeah, the therapist, exactly. And so we're on season four and we saw, previous seasons, and we were really impressed by how she was portrayed in the show. And we were really impressed and wanted and craved. That's what we called ninja in Orna. Ninja attack on us. Which was there's so many times in the show where she's so perceptive and so hyper aware about what was happening in dynamics, and we wanted that. Right. as somebody who really craves personal development and kind of being the best version of myself that I could try and achieve, for me, that was a really attractive thing. Right. there was also this thing where, like, we live in New York City, Things are really expensive. Orna is very expensive. Right. And in exchange for going on the show and having them edit it however they want to edit it, you get six months of therapy weekly. Right. Which is not something that we could have afforded. Right. And so that was another element of it. Is it worth having a, narrative about us cut up and edited in whatever way they want, is that worth it? To actually do that deep, deep work on ourselves and go through that gauntlet? And we thought it was. It was worth it.

F: You feel okay with the way that you guys were portrayed?

A: There are a lot of ups and downs. And I would say, to be, I think, quite honest, I don't feel good about some things in the show. I don't like that. My. The most difficult things in our relationship and the things that I'm least proud of are on the show. But I still feel like it was an interesting experience and I'm glad for the things that we did learn and, that probably still made it worth it.

F: Okay, well, we'll definitely do a part two because this has been a really wonderful conversation and we literally runn out of time. We have someone waiting to access this studio, but before I wrap up, just very quickly, what would you tell to a polycurious person listening to the show?

A: I would say take things slow, but know that you are resilient and that, know that hiccups will happen, people will feel hurt, but try to take more time to understand each other, care for each other, and just go for the interesting path forward with care and love for all the humans that you're interacting with.

F: Amen.

J: Love. Yeah. I would say that every time that there is a conflict or things don't go the way that you expect, it's a chance for you to model how you wish to be treated. And if you hold yourself to that really high standard, then you leave space for a lot of charitableness, a lot of grace, and a lot of warmth as you guys are exploring things that are just, honestly, inherently difficult and complex. And so I think I echo that about resilience. I think we are so much more resilient than we give ourselves credit for. And have fun, right? Have fun, talk a lot, communicate, and be introspective and willing to improve. And you can have really incredible experiences with people who are wonderful.

F: Yeah. It's all an opportunity to grow and learn and live life at its fullest. Well, thank you so much. This has been truly than for having us.