Annie: this one person in particular dmd me and he was like, I don't know why, but I really wanna call you mommy. I'm a dom leaning switch and I wanna teach you like how to dom if you teach me how to sub. And I was like. Cool. Wonderful. Let's do it.

Fer: Hi everyone. I am Fer. Welcome to Polycurious, and before I tell you about today's guest, which I'm sure you are going to love, I actually wanted to share something personal. So, as some of you might know I've always considered myself non-monogamous. Not really fully polyamorous but things have changed a little bit, so I feel like I'm going from polycurious to. Maybe potentially polyamorous and it's definitely been a learning journey, and I actually recorded a Patreon episode on this. It is about comparing partners. It is about the expectations we put on other people, because even though now I'm very much convinced that I want to, for at least the time being.

Invest in this relationship. I had a lot of resistance and a lot of it had to do with comparing this secondary partner of mine to Seth. So I recorded a very personal Patreon episode about that. The first half of it is available for free, so I will include the link in the show notes the second half. You have to become a Patreon subscriber to access, and if you decide to join my Patreon, you also have access to. Other solo episodes with very personal stories, you'll have access to. Where are they now? Interviews where I catch up with previous guests as well as other content from the podcast. And whether you join for the monthly fee, or you join for free, you will also have access to our monthly meetup, The next meetup will be on May 14th. That is a Wednesday at 8:00 PM EST 5:00 PM. Pacific Time This time around is going to be around Metamours Meeting metamours, Don Ask, don't tell. Like what's the best approach when it comes to your partners? Partners. So make sure to join my Patreon, either for free or for the monthly fee if you want to be there. Okay? Now let me tell you about today's guest. You might actually be familiar with her. Her name is Annie Undone, or at least that's how she goes on Instagram. and if you follow me on Instagram, you know I often post her stuff 'cause I feel like she is very out there. She is very honest and very raw and very vulnerable and I love that because as you guys know, I'm also like that. And we talk about a variety of topics,

Including exploring someone's sexuality online, she had really great tips around that. In her case, she actually had a long distance DS relationship, meaning dominant submissive, where she was a dominant one and they actually have never met, but she considered him her partner and he was asexual. And Annie opens up about her experience today with us and tells us

What she learned from having this online kink relationship, with an asexual person, and if you're wondering what does that even look like? Like how can it be a kinky and asexual relationship? Annie and I get into that. She also tells us about her journey exploring polyamory with her ex-husband, And eventually realizing she was being abused and deciding to end that relationship. she will be the first one to admit that she went through it and it wasn't the healthiest at times, but she's learned a lot in the process and today she's sharing all of those lessons with us. Currently, she's actually in a monogamous relationship with someone who's 14 years younger than she is. And getting there was a little bit problematic with her partners at the time, which didn't fully support her decision, But she decided to move forward with it in a mindful way, and now she lives part-time with her partner cj, part-time with her mother. last but not least, we talk about romance addiction. I think a lot of us non monogamous, polyamorous people. Love connections and love to be in love and love to just feed from that energy of someone else. But sometimes that also means that we stop being okay, being on our own or connecting with ourselves, not in relationship to other people. So Annie talks about her experience with that as well. I hope that you resonate with what she has to say. If you want to check out her work, her books, her Instagram, you'll find all of those links in the episode description.

Okay guys, are you ready? Here's my interview with Annie Undone. Annie, welcome to Polycurious. I'm so excited to have you. I've been listening to your podcast interviews. I've been reading your work and I have so many questions, no offense to the people who have interviewed you so far, but I was like, how are they not asking about this? So, I'm so excited to be able to ask you about all those hairy topics that for whatever reason, they decided not to ask you about.

Annie: Yeah, let's get into it. Thanks for having me.

Fer: Yeah, of course. So tell us a little bit about your background. I mean, we know you today as Annie undone and, as you've described yourself, a relationship anarchist and someone who does relationships differently and shares about her journey. you weren't like that always. And you're also very open about that, even though I did hear in one of your interviews that you even had like a, so some sort of with like two people in high school or college or

Annie: Yeah. I offhandedly joke that I was like in this weird, like. Triad at 13 with a gay man and a straight woman, right? And we used to all like, make out and stuff and I'm like, I kind of should have known that there was something, like, there were a lot of those, right? Like kind of like moments, like I had, um, a high school boyfriend and we would sometimes break up and then like be like, let's go on dates with our new partners, right? Like something should have clicked in my head. But I didn't see mono, uh, non-monogamy as a viable like option for I guess many, many years until I was in my late thirties. So when I was 18, I met my husband. We very quickly moved in together. We got married when I was 24. Um, so I was with him basically my entire adult life.

I had a child at 29 and that was a real game changer in a lot of ways, but it wasn't until I was like 34 years old that somebody mentioned to me that they were swinging. And I was like, wow, okay. Like that's a, that's a thing you can do. And that was what basically got my husband and I into non-monogamy as like a real conversation.

Fer: Right. So you were inclined to it from the beginning, but you didn't know it was an option and then someone told you, oh, hey, this is an option, and your husband was actually also down, which not always happens. However, I do remember you saying that you had different monogamous styles, which happens a lot.

So tell me a little bit about that process of figuring out what each of you wanted and how that affected how you went about the opening up.

Annie: so I think when I was about 25 or 26, before all of this, we went to a concert. This big concert weekend in, um, Jamaica at Hedonism. And he like booked these tickets at Hedonism and he was like, oh, this is gonna be really like super fun 'cause like you can be naked on the beach. But we had no idea that hedonism was like a swinger resort at all.

Um, and so, I guess I should say, which I don't think I've ever really talked about this publicly, but like we met a couple of people that weekend who were like, yeah, we're swingers and did, you know, this was like a swingers resort? And like, so it was kind of like, it entered like the thought process. And even that year we were curious to the point that we had a threesome that year.

Um. Like shortly after coming back from this, this trip and it just kind of like went badly. So we like put it in a box as like a one-off experience. Right. Um, but then when in 2019 our friends had told us that they were swinging and we had more of a touchstone of like, okay, like, can I ask you questions?

Can I ask you how this works? Like, started reading books and I think that my uh, husband at the time now, ex-husband was, was mostly interested in novel sexual experiences. Right. Um, and I was really interested in exploring different BDSM styles. Um, I had been practicing BDSM for a couple of years with him and I was sort of getting interested in domming and I was specifically interested in domming gay men and I, because I just feel really safe with gay men.

and. I think that at that point, like it should have been a little evident to both my husband and I that our sexual desires really diverged. , 'cause he was basically interested in like straight sex and like watching other chicks together, right? Like,

Fer: Right, the

Annie: um. Yeah, very typical. And I was really interested in gay sex of all kinds and very much less interested in any sort of straight sex.

Um, but that was our entry point and we kind of took it and I very quickly learned that, um, swinging was not for me, although at first I couldn't really understand why. I was like, arguably, like we're having great sex. Um, but I feel really bad about the sex that I'm having and I, I don't understand why. and it was around that time that I really started to realize I, I was dating somebody who is asexual.

for the first time, and this was all so novel to me, um, about Demisexuality and Allo sexuality and asexuality, and just something clicked and I was like, oh my gosh, I just don't wanna have sex with people without an emotional connection.

And that was when I finally crossed over to say like, I'm really interested in polyamory because the setup of free sexuality for me feels best under loving circumstance.

Fer: Yeah. what's called demisexual, right? You need to

Annie: Mm-hmm.

Fer: an emotional connection with people where your husband at the time didn't care for that.

Annie: Yeah.

Fer: in there that I want to dissect, but

Annie: right. And when you say that you were dating gay men, were you being sexually and romantically involved with them? Were they, did they know they were gay and they were down to date you as a woman,

I mean, you know, I think the large portion of the relationships that I had with gay men were in high school, right? This was like before they had maybe come out. Um, they probably, they probably knew that they were gay, right? I mean, I knew they were gay. Um, I just felt like they should be wanting to relate to me, but I couldn't explain why.

Right. And we were, you know, romantically, um, engaged. We were oftentimes, you know, kissing in some variation of sexually engaged. Um, but it was never reciprocated in the way that I desired. Right. Um, because. They were seeing me and I was seeing me essentially as a straight woman, and that was never going to create the cohesion of romantic relationship that they wanted.

Um, but I don't think anyone really understood what was going on there. Right. Um, and I was just a kind of like a dorky theater kid, um, kind of not knowing that I needed to make an exploration of myself, but kind of doing it anyway.

Fer: so another thing you said that I found really interesting is that you realized that you were interested in domming gay How did you come to that realization?

Annie: Uh, you know, this is a lifelong thing for me that it, it really took me, it took me so many years to unpack and understand this. I have dated so many gay men. and so when I was thinking about, like as an adult, when I was thinking about practicing non-monogamy and specifically practicing non-monogamy in the context of, of kink, which creates a container, and I was thinking about what are my fantasies?

Um, for me the fantasy was. To dom a gay man. And that sounded like, like the height of my sexuality. Right? And at the time, I just said what I felt, um, and what I most understand about myself now as a non-binary human, is that there is a very large part of me that just feels like a gay man. And so to me it is absolutely logical that I should be hooking up with gay men, right?

Um, because that's kind of a, a huge facet of my personality. Um, at the time I didn't really understand that, but as I have kind of explored my gender fluidity and my gender identity, um, I feel more and more confident and comfortable with that piece of it. So that's kind of why.

Fer: Right. And did you actually get to fulfill that fantasy of, of domming a gay man.

Annie: Well, I would say I have domed some bi men and, uh, just as, just as satisfactory to me. Um, I've, I've dated a lot of bisexual men and, um, yeah, it's been terrific. It's been terrific.

Fer: Nice. So how did you come to that realization? Because you know, for me, I really like power play and my partner is not very kinky, which is okay because I get to do the power play stuff with other partners and that's part of the reason why I'm open. But then when I realized that he didn't really want to be I was like, well, maybe I can be dominant.

Right. And I doubled a bit. And then, then we realized it's not about him not wanting to be dominant, it's just him not liking the.

Annie: Kink.

Fer: play? Yeah, the kink aspect of it more generally. So I kind of gave up on that, but when I tried it or I had some like thoughts, experiments of like, okay, well the dude this turned me on to, tell this person what to do and have them do it, and, um, that sort of thing.

And I was like, yeah, I think it would, but it just hasn't really materialized for me because I'm a a lot more comfortable as a sub

Annie: I'm just comfortable in that space, so why would I stir things up and, and try something else? But I'm always interested because is in my experience, a lot easier for women to be submissive because anyways, that's how our patriarchal society has taught us to be right. So it, it just flows more, much more naturally than stepping into your dominant side. So I'm curious how you came to that realization. Is that something you explored with your husband before you opened up the relationship shape?

We had explored like DS Power Exchange and I had been submissive in that relationship. I don't know if a lot of people know this, but like Annie undone was born on Reddit, and I had been kind of like, this is almost embarrassing to admit, but I had been trying to get the attention of this mod in a B-D-S-M, um, subreddit, and he had said, you can't write a guide for brats because brats are just untamable and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

He had all these unkind things to say about brats, right? And I was like.

Fer: on. Can you just, uh, define a brat for people and also you said mod? I actually dunno what

Annie: Oh, like a, like, you know, a, um, a moderator for one of the subreddits.

Fer: Oh, okay.

Annie: so broads are like a certain type of personality in BDSM, right? Um, they tend to be less of rule followers. Um, they are more attention seeking in a lot of cases. And some doms refuse to play with them because they say like, they get on their nerves, right?

Like, they're not just, they're not just like straight submissives, right? Um, and so I identified as a brat at the time and I was like, I'm gonna write a guide for brats and Doms. So I wrote this thing called Annie's Big Bratty Brat Guide. And that is basically how Annie undone was born. I got the attention of this person and through this, I got a lot of dms and this one person in particular dmd me and he was like, I don't know why, but I really wanna call you mommy.

And I was like, oh, well I don't, I literally have no idea what you're talking about, but like, cool, let's do it. And basically he was like, well, I'm, I'm a dom leaning switch and I wanna teach you like how to dom if you teach me how to sub. And I was like. Cool. Wonderful. Let's do it. And so we started this like online phone relationship where basically he taught me how to dom in this kind of very specific scenario, right.

Of um, this like online phone relationship medium. And that was when I learned, or more so remembered because I'm old enough, like I'm an, I'm a former AOL kid, right? Like a OL chat and Messenger came out when I was 12 years old. We were up in those chat rooms. We were doing the cyber sex, like we were just being misbehaved, right?

And I remembered this is a great way, a safe way to explore my sexuality and what I want without a person being right in front of me. And that was how I explored my Dom side for the first time was online through this like phone relationship, absolutely fell for this guy and he like ghosted so hard. It was awful.

It was terrible, but I was like, wait a second. I really enjoy this. And from there, continued to explore that online and, and to this day, this is like my best advice. If you wanna explore a facet of your kink personality, but you're not really sure if it's for you or you just kinda wanna dabble around with it a little bit, go online.

Find someone who wants to do that with you online. Like, you know, put your safety measures in place. I was very naive. Do not send your face in nudes. don't give out your address to strangers. Like, I felt like these should be common sense things, but like, I made a lot of rookie mistakes in my thirties, which is very embarrassing because I didn't understand online safety.

Um, but I think it's a really great way to explore those different sides and then figure out what turns you on, what do you like, what language do you like to use? How do you like to tell someone to do something? What do you like them to say to you? And then sort of bring those things into the bedroom as you feel ready and comfortable.

Fer: Yeah. You know, I totally agree. I actually had this experience where even though I've always been a very sexual person, or at least curious and interested, even though not always super horny now, a lot more, but back then I actually didn't know how to pleasure myself. Like I would try to masturbate and it would just. I didn't know what I was doing. Right? 'cause we don't really, first of all, I didn't even watch porn. But also, it's not like you, you see how to do

Annie: Mm-hmm.

Fer: watching the typical male gaze porn.

Annie: Right?

Fer: the very first time I managed, which was when I was 24, so pretty late, was through sexting

Annie: Mm.

Fer: it allowed me to have that safe space of like being on my

Annie: Yes.

Fer: but also feel of that energy from someone else.

And that's when I realized part of my sexuality actually has to do with, sadly, in a way, but also I've come to terms with it, with like the male gaze, right? Like I, I get turned on thinking that they are looking at me and they think I'm hot. And that's what helps me get off

Annie: Yeah. I don't think that's sad at all. I think that's just reality for you, right? Like being hot makes us feel hot.

Fer: Yeah, for sure. But then I am, I wonder what happens when, um, I get older and then maybe other people don't find me as attractive or can I just, um, in my process of pleasuring myself, could I just think about my own pleasure and get turned on by just me and not how a man sees me? I also think about it in terms of, my bicurious side, right?

Like I've played with women, I've had threesomes,

Annie: But, but I've never really had, um. The same idea of, oh, this woman finds me hot and that's gonna turn me on. It's no, no, no.

Fer: It's the man fight finds me hot and, and that's what turns me on. So, you know, I've come to terms with it, it's just the reality of it. But

Annie: Yeah.

Fer: acknowledge that it does have to, do with our patriarchal culture and, um, so I don't love that, but

Annie: Mm

Fer: am comfortable with it, you know.

Annie: mm Yeah. I mean, I think too, like exploring like what's homo romantic, what's homosexual, right? Like some people are extremely heteroromantic in, in the way that they experience that male gaze too, and I think that that's always a really interesting discussion when you start picking apart the little parts of your sexuality, right?

Fer: Yeah, for sure. And I do feel like I might be one of those cases where in like 10 years I'll be like, oh, I am actually bisexual and now I have a girlfriend. And you know, maybe it's just a part of myself that I haven't discovered

Annie: Explored it.

Fer: reason,

Annie: Okay.

Fer: enough. I don't know. I don't know yet. So I'm open to that. but yeah, going back to your experience, having that dom sub relationship that was online, as you said, Relationship like that can be freeing because you can be on your own, you can take a break, you can go and drink water, you

Annie: Yeah.

Fer: and still be performative, but not in a way that you can't mess up.

Right.

Annie: Right.

Fer: I think that's a great tip. Also, think of safety. When you say like, people should go online, like where would you recommend

Annie: I mean, I think it depends, right? Like you can go on dating apps and find people, right? And just be like, I'm looking for like online play, right? Like, there are lots of people who will do that with you. I met people in A-B-D-S-M focused Discord server. Um, that was a great place. You know, you can go in, a lot of subreddits have Discord servers.

Some people are a fan of FetLife, right? It kind of depends what's your, what's your flavor and what are you, what are you looking to experience, right?

I, I'm a huge fan of Discord, but you know, not everybody wants to learn a new app. Some people meet people on Instagram for gosh sakes, you know.

Fer: Yeah, yeah, I've definitely sexted with some people on field.

Annie: Yeah. Yeah. I love field.

Fer: I'll actually, I'll add these links to the, to the show notes and can be, in case people are not familiar. Um, I'm curious, so when that person taught you to dom,

Annie: Mm-hmm.

Fer: some of the tips? Give us the tips, like if we wanna dom, like

Annie: Yeah. Like

Fer: as women?

Annie: it was really funny, like at first I, like one time he was like doming me in a practice session and he was like, spank your ass. And I like spanked a hot water bottle because I was like, I was like, this will make a great sound. So I spanked this hot water bottle,

Fer: is what I'm saying, like that's the magic of, of being

Annie: right?

Fer: kind of

Annie: And then I told him that I had spanked the hot water bottle and he was like, no. You're supposed to spank yourself, like you're supposed to be actually doing what I'm telling you to do. And I was like, uh oh.

Fer: he was gonna punish you.

Annie: No. I mean, punishment was never really a negotiated part of any of my dynamics. Um, but I do think that's important, right?

For people to know, like have really clear dynamics. you know, don't jump in with somebody who's like, let's do this, and then gives you no point of reference for what you're actually doing, right? We had agreements, we spent two, three days putting together like, what's your desires? What's this, what's that?

how are we gonna set up scenes and. You know who's doing this and who, like we had a lot of, um, little tricks, right? So in our switchy dynamic, we had decided that, you know, we would use honorifics and we, agreed as to what those honorifics were.

So mine was mommy of course. 'cause that's what he wanted to call me. And I thought that was hot. I actually don't remember what his was, but I know that when we wanted to speak outside of dynamic, we used each other's names to signal. Okay, Annie, I need to talk to you outside of dynamics. So I would know, right, that this was falling outside of that.

We also decided that in any sort of power struggle, ultimately he was on top of the dynamic, right? So all of these little points, are very important points, to discuss. When you have a dynamic, do you wanna have punishment? If so, what's on the table? What's not on the table? If you're doing sex acts, what's on the table?

What's not on the table? A lot of polyamorous people. Aren't gonna be able to do orgasm control because they're with multiple partners. Or you might be able to have orgasm control on a Tuesday, but not a Thursday, right? and what turns you on. Do you like power play?

Do you like impact play? Um, you know, do you wanna be given tasks? Right? Like I had a submissive one time where, you know, he loved to be given tasks, so I'd be like, write me a two page paper on the origin of the computer, right? And I would give non-sexual tasks like that. so it really depends on what kind of dynamic you're trying to build.

you can go as far as you know, I was once in a 24 7 total power exchange with somebody. I picked out his clothing, I picked out his hair. I told him what time to go to bed, right? Like, this can be as much or as little as feels good for you. It needs to be very clear and your limitations need to be clearly outlined.

Fer: were you doing all these while you were still married?

Annie: Yeah, I mean, this was actually the very beginning of my journey. I had the dynamic with the, with the gentleman who broke my heart. and then the next dynamic I had was with a, a guy named Sam.

Fer: solely, uh, online.

Annie: Yeah. That was solely online. the first few months was really an exploration of online dynamics and relationships.

And it wasn't probably for six more months, um, until we really got on the apps and started into swinging and exploring these things, like more in, in person, which was a whole different face.

Fer: Yeah, I bet. So tell me about Sam. I actually had a lot of questions about him. That was one of the questions that I was like, why is no one asking? When you said, I dated this asexual person,

Annie: Yeah.

Fer: no one asked you about that. I'm like,

Annie: Well,

Fer: the kind of thing I

Annie: yeah.

Fer: know about.

Annie: wish that people asked about it more because I, I, you know, dating someone who is asexual was life changing for me, as a, fairly conventionally, pretty person.

I've been sexualized since I was a, a small child, right. particularly by men. So when somebody said, I'm really interested in what you have to offer me, like from a kink perspective and emotionally, but I've never been sexually attracted to anyone and I'm not interested in your sexuality. I was. So turned on, I was like, oh my God.

Yes. this is like the offer of a lifetime. So much so that when I said to my husband, I'm gonna start this like nonsexual kink relationship with this person, he was like, whatever. What does that even mean?

Fer: Well, actually I have that question too because for a lot of people kink and sexual go together, how, what was the kink aspect of the relationship?

Annie: So I mean, I think it's really important to point out right, that, um, asexual is a very broad term, right? And so, some, a asexual people still have sex or engage in certain sex acts and not others, right? and Sam had never engaged in a variety of sex acts, although we did get sexual at times.

but. There were also things that were, were very strictly off limits for him, right? So it's important to understand that asexuality encompasses a, a ton of nuance. Right. Um, but for us, the bulk of the BDSM practice that we did was a lot of power exchange, and control. Right. But also, um, a lot of pain play, which was interesting for me because I had no idea that I had such a rich sadist side.

Um, and there was a lot of things that we did like kneeling on rice or, um, like.

Fer: that?

Annie: Having him like kneel on rice. I don't know if you've ever done this, but it's quite painful. there was a lot of nuance to this relationship, and it was a long relationship.

It was a two year relationship. We fell extremely deeply in love. Um,

Fer: and this was in person too, not just

Annie: actually he lived in the eu and this was during the pandemic. this was basically an online relationship, um, over the course of two years. And, a variety of other things were happening in the background as well.

Um. But, you know, it was really interesting to have this experience of, first of all, remote bombing and, you know, sexual exchange and power exchange and emotion and all of these things that were happening. it was a huge learning ground for me of this umbrella of relationship that I didn't even know existed.

and so it was just a super interesting and extremely deep relationship for me and for him. we're still loosely in touch today, I think that a lot of allosexual people. Don't realize the absolute gift that asexual people bring to the relationship arena.

Right. Um, to this day, my relationship with Sam remains one of the most romantic relationships I've ever experienced. when you think about separating out some of these things like sexuality and romance, right? We, we think that they're inherently tied together, but they're not. Right? this is a man who would go out of his way to read bedtime stories and record them for me, right?

Um, and I would listen to his beautiful accent as I was drifting off to sleep almost every night, right? I mean, these are very romantic things. Um, it's sort of like a, a courtly love, if you will, you know?

Fer: So tell me more about that. How is it that he was asexual? If he did want to engage in sexual acts with you every once in a while, could that not be a person that's not very sexual? Because my idea of asexual is someone who does not like to have any sort of sex.

Annie: Yeah, so that's a huge misconception, right? I'm not speaking on behalf of the asexual community, but there are lots of gray ace people who have sex all the time, right?

it is really individual and comes down literally to the asexual person who is in front of you and the way that their sexuality works for them.

Fer: But in this case, why would he consider himself asexual?

Annie: I don't wanna speak for, for Sam and his personal sexuality. because I can't speak to the evolution of that, right. Five years later. what I can say is that most of his desire was encompassed and tied in with kink, right? And so, sometimes when we practiced kink together, that felt, like a safe place for him to express some of those desires, right?

And sometimes it didn't, sometimes it felt purely kinky without any sexuality at all. and these are like super nuanced concepts, for this community of people in general, right?

Fer: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I don't want to spend too much time on the definition, but I understand that there's variation and that some people do have sex, some people don't.

Annie: tell us why that relationship was so significant and life changing for you, and have you ever met him in person?

I have not met him in person. I had an opportunity a couple of years ago, he offered to come to the us. by that time I was with another partner and I felt that it would be more damaging than good at that time, or maybe I should say more dangerous than not at that time. and I would say that the reason that it was so life changing for me was because it introduced me to this world beyond sexuality as being the defining characteristic of partnership, which.

Really has been a hallmark of my polyamory moving forward. loving relationships and deep partnerships don't have to be inherently tied in to sex and sexuality? Um, that there is this world beyond that and, and, and on the more personal level, it gave me this sense of myself and my own worth beyond sex, which was really important for me to, to gain.

Fer: Yeah, I love that. So how did you move from that, from having these online relationships and being in this open marriage to ultimately getting a divorce? I'm curious because you've mentioned in other interviews that likelihood that if you open up your relationship is going to end is high,

Annie: Mm-hmm.

Fer: which I somewhat agree with that, but I think you've also mentioned also the likelihood that if you don't open up your relationship is high too.

I don't know if you know if there's one higher than the other or if it's the same, I'm always curious to hear, for those couples that did end up breaking up, issues did you already have that non-monogamy just

Annie: Yeah. So I think, like, you know, I'm always very clear to say, I think if you open the relationship, the likelihood it'll end is high, because I feel like people need to know that it's a, a risk that they're taking. Right. And I very much knew, I knew that that was a risk. for me, the issue that was highlighted that was ultimately the deal breaker was abuse.

Right. Um, polyamory showed me that I, I was being abused in in many ways, and it wasn't until. I was in multiple relationships, that I had something to directly compare it to, that this became blatantly obvious to me. Um, even as it became more and more obvious to me, I was very reluctant to leave. I really, I didn't wanna leave.

I felt like maybe it's workable. Maybe there's a world in which he addresses some of these issues. and ultimately, what happened? You know, we were kitchen table poll. The night that I left, we had an, a former partner at the house and my current partner, CJ, at the house. And essentially my ex-husband exploded.

He threatened to kill my partner. He threatened to burn down the house to tell everybody that I was having an affair and to take my child and. It was in that moment that when I saw the fear on my partner's face, when I realized the amount of damage, when that third person was in the room and I saw what that was doing, it all just clicked, and that was what it took for me.

And we literally walked out the back door that night and I never returned to that marriage.

Fer: Yeah, sometimes it takes those dynamics to be exposed to other people

Annie: Mm-hmm.

Fer: for you to be able to stop making excuses for yourself, right?

Annie: Right.

Fer: you don't only have to make excuses for yourself, you have to make excuses for other people as well.

Annie: Yes. And.

Fer: I also wanna be clear, because I tell, I tell people this, it doesn't matter. Like mine is like a very stark, like, it's like it's unquestionable, right? Um, but in terms of even the abuse, right? Because the excuse was I'm only behaving this way because we're polyamorous, right? Um, and you'll hear this a lot, like couples will say, oh no, it's the polyamory that's causing this issue, right?

Annie: But when I thought back 10 years previous to that date, these abusive behaviors, um, had been present the entire time. So I knew that it wasn't the polyamory, right? And it, and, and that's why I say like, it's not that the polyamory is gonna end, end your relationship, right? But you're gonna see these behaviors or problems amplified.

Fer: Yeah, but I mean, that's a good thing, right? Imagine if you hadn't opened up. You might still be together, you might still not. See the abuse and maybe you break up 10 years later,

Annie: Exactly

Fer: you stay in an abusive relationship forever, and neither of those options are great. So

Annie: I,

Fer: I think it's worth it.

Annie: I agree. I don't think that people should not open for fear of their relationship ending. I just think they should be aware of it because, I mean, there's a variety of reasons, right? For me, the end of my marriage was, was a very successful thing, right? It, it was difficult. If it hadn't been for the support of the two partners I left that relationship with as well as my mom, I wouldn't have been able to do it.

It would've felt insurmountable for me. It

Fer: Hmm.

Annie: felt like I had a good enough reason either. Right? Not bad enough.

Fer: Yeah, that's interesting because I usually recommend people that if they're not in a good place. In their own relationship, they shouldn't open because then will happen like it happened

Annie: Yes,

Fer: But in your case, you're saying that I was actually good because if I hadn't had the support of other polyamorous partners and I had that realization, then I would have never left.

Right. So even though you kind of, I think, I think you also mentioned this in, in one of your interviews, you kind of knew you were gonna break up

Annie: I.

Fer: to me that's never a good place to, do

Annie: That isn't where we opened from though. When we opened our marriage, it was at its peak, it was at its very best. so I think this is kind of like the interesting point about my story, right? I would never recommend someone open when things are going very badly.

Although if things are going very badly, what have you got to lose? Right? And you have to kind of weigh that risk assessment for yourself. For us, when we opened. We were actually in a very good spot. We had just built our dream home. He was graduating with a degree, like things were going very arguably, very well for us.

We were in a place where no abuse was really happening, right? Like things were very placid What it showed me was, people can bury their issues, but they're still latent, like they're still under the surface, and this was a very unfortunate stress test of that,

Fer: Tell me because I'm always interested in learning what determines whether a relationship is abusive or not.

Annie: Mm-hmm.

Fer: a lot of people, women more often than men, find themselves in relationships where they maybe intuitively kind of know that they're being abused or gaslit or whatever it is, but they're not sure.

And they

Annie: Mm-hmm.

Fer: these excuses like, oh, it's a polyamory. Oh, they're gonna change. Oh, that's not abuse. He does it 'cause he cares about me so much that,

Annie: Right?

Fer: why he's jealous, whatever it is. So in your case, what were some behaviors before or during

Annie: Mm-hmm.

Fer: up that, that you were like, oh, that's abuse.

Annie: It, I mean, this is gonna sound bad, right? Because you think you would recognize it. but I endured physical abuse in this relationship prior, um, prior to having a kid that I, that today, I cringe and think. Jesus Christ. How did I not know? so obviously if someone is putting their hands on you, that's abuse, right?

Um,

Fer: mean he was physically abusive to you and even then you didn't recognize

Annie: I didn't recognize it. I thought

Fer: Mm-hmm.

Annie: that was a one-off. he just lost control, right? Um, but beyond that, right? Some other things. If someone is, and these are things that happen to me. I'm only speaking from my experiences, this is not a comprehensive list, right? If someone's keeping you up all night and they're not letting you sleep and they're continuing to badger you and badger you and keep you from sleeping, um, that's a pretty big warning sign.

If someone is calling you names repeatedly, and they are basically telling you that what you think and feel is not real, right? Um, if you.

Fer: a big

Annie: Yeah.

if you're being isolated from family, if every time you have a business opportunity, there's a reason why you can't do that, right? If someone's keeping you from working, if someone's keeping you from being educated, right? Those things are abuse.

I see people in peer support a lot who, um, are questioning questioning, right? And I just wanna say Peer support is a, is a good place to ask some of those questions because I understand how hard it is to go to a friend or to go to a family member and say, this thing is happening to me.

Right. Um, because you feel like if you tell someone they're gonna tell you to leave and you might not be ready to leave. Right. And this is like very real for people. Um, and it's a very tough time trying to grapple with and decide, how do I leave this person that I'm literally addicted to? Right? Because in that abuse cycle we get into this feeling of this person hurt me, but they're the only person who can make it better for me.

Fer: Mm. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I mean, I, luckily I did have a toxic, unhealthy relationship, I guess manipulative, probably abusive as well in some ways, but it was somewhat shortlived and when I was younger but I've seen it with friends. And I think another big one is the lack of respecting your boundaries.

Annie: Hmm. Yes, yes,

Fer: not okay with something, and they just step all over you.

Annie: yes.

Fer: not okay.

Annie: not allowed to have boundaries.

thank you for sharing that. And I hope that women who are listening who might find themselves in that situation seek help, uh, learn to stand up for themselves because also, as you said, you often think that he's the only one who's going to fix it for you, and that the love that you have for this person is the only love that there is.

Fer: And as someone who has been in an unhealthy relationship and then found someone with whom I have the healthiest relationship, honestly, the healthiest relationship I know of

Annie: Mm.

Fer: it does The alternative does exist. It, it might not feel as fiery and intense, but part of. The, the thing that makes it feel so intense is all the negativity,

Annie: Right,

Fer: the, the lows are very low, then the highs are gonna feel amazing. 'cause you, you compare it

Annie: right.

Fer: you can still find someone who you love deeply, who you feel passionate about, who's not mistreating you in that way.

Annie: Yeah.

Fer: not have met that person, but I promise you that person is there.

I've been in that situation where I thought I only had one person that I loved for the rest of my life or whatever. And no, you'll find someone else.

Annie: Yeah, exactly.

Fer: Awesome. Okay, so, uh, obviously what your husband did not acceptable, you know, lashing out at, at you in front of your partners but I would love to hear it was that got him so triggered.

Like, how did you guys go from. Being in a somewhat healthy and, and as you said at that point, not even abusive relationship to this moment where you were like, okay, enough, I need to break up.

Annie: I was really enthused for polyamory. And I think that at a certain point we were in a quad with, two of our, our longtime friends, Josie and Tyler, and,

My ex-husband was not particularly enthused about these relationships. I was super in love with Josie and Tyler, And he was like, I really don't wanna be like in love with these people.

I wanna go outside of this and date. And so he did and he was having different dating experiences, but I think that they weren't going particularly well for him for a variety of reasons. and he was a lot at odds.

Right. With Josie and Tyler thinking that they were taking up all of my time that they wanted me all to themselves. Meanwhile, he's still sleeping with Josie. Right. And so this is kind of the backdrop against which my current partner and I, CJ started to kind of become more interested in one another.

but I kind of thought that CJ was maybe a little too young for me. Like I was like, we have an age gap. Like, I don't really know. And my husband was like, you know what? I really think that you should date this guy.

Like he was super, super enthusiastic about me dating cj and he had some loose ties to our friend group, Tyler who was my boyfriend. He was Tyler's. Sisters sons college roommate.

and we had this polycule meeting of me, my husband, Josie and Tyler. And in this meeting I kind of said, you know, I'm thinking I wanna explore this relationship with cj.

I am thinking about this. And Josie proceeded to yell at me for like 45 minutes straight about how I shouldn't do this.

Fer: she was like this connection that he has to the family, and it was like, okay, but Josie like spent a summer like making out with my brother, so please like, don't tell me about like family connections, right?

Annie: Then it was like, oh, but his age. But Josie was in a relationship with someone the exact same amount of years. Younger.

Fer: So it was like, I mean, obviously he wasn't the son of one of

Annie: no no.

Fer: like the roommate of the son, of like

Annie: Right?

Fer: your age. So it felt like a little taboo. If you don't mind me asking,

Annie: Yeah.

Fer: how much younger is he?

Annie: So he's 14 years younger than me. And, you know, I had some questions right, about the power dynamic, but, but still, this was in its early, early phase and, and she was very clear and she was like, if you do this, I'm gonna break up with you and, and if I break up with you, Tyler's gonna break up with you.

and I was just like, this doesn't feel like a discussion for me. Right. Um, so after that polycule meeting, I ended the relationships with Tyler and Josie.

My husband was very relieved about this information, and he was like, what I think you need to do is just date cj just concentrate on that.

So, CJ and I began dating. and we ended up falling very, very deeply in love.

and, and things are kind of going really well, uh, for CJ and I, and I kind of said,

I think I'm gonna not continue to date. I don't wanna have any more Random sex with people. I really just wanna deepen into the two relationships that I've really got going on right now. And this is about the point where my ex-husband absolutely lost his shit and told me that he thought that because of CJ's age that he would, and I quote, fuck me and break my heart.

And then I would get over this whole polyamory thing. And he basically admitted to me that he thought that if he pushed me towards dating cj, that it would end the relationships with Tyler and Josie, which it did, which is what he wanted. but that he did not want me to fall in love with this person or continue to conduct a relationship with them.

Fer: I felt so manipulated by the whole situation, and it was around that time that things just absolutely exploded, right?

Annie: Because. At that point, I was like, but then you lied to me and you're wanting me to be hurt. Treating me essentially like an object, like a chess piece. And I felt very stupid, frankly.

Fer: I felt very naive. like your husband was like, oh, she'll date CJ for a while, but CJ is is young, so he's gonna get tired of her, and then I'll be

Annie: Yeah.

Fer: her, and then we'll be happily monogamish again.

Annie: Yeah.

Fer: when I really look back at things, that was the point at which the trust had really eroded for me.

Annie: And it was only probably two or three more months beyond that, uh, until, until the marriage was over.

Okay. Well thank you so much for sharing that. I think it does show how, as you said, even though there were times where he wasn't man manipulative or abusive or whatever, there. The dynamics still came up to the surface when of this played out. Um, one thing I wanted to talk to you about, in your writing, I read your book on polyamory, which people should go check out again.

Fer: The link will be in the show notes. and you talk about, how sometimes you have like a little bit of like an addiction to to love and to relationships. And I feel like um, interesting line to walk, right? Because polyamorous people and maybe even non monogamous people obviously love people, like they love connecting and I feel similarly, but it can become a little addictive and I we don't really talk about like being addicted to romance and I also tend to be like all in for people.

Annie: Hmm.

Fer: know if I'm dating someone. I'm gonna be like waiting for that message and

Annie: Hmm.

Fer: about that person and doing all those things. So what I realized for myself is that I rather set that boundary of, when we see each other, we're like very present each other. We might text or sext a little bit, like in between, but I don't want to be constantly in touch with people precisely because I know that I can have this addictive thing

Right? And, and I think we can all relate when you are infatuated with someone, you can't pay attention to your, job or your family or whatever. You're just thinking about that person. And I just don't like that feeling precisely because I know I tend to be a little addicted to

Annie: Mm-hmm.

Fer: tell us a little bit about that.

How have you come to terms with the fact that yes, you're polyamorous, you like to love multiple people or have multiple connections, but also it's kind of an addiction.

​

Annie: Yeah. I would say that my ex-husband and I were completely aligned on like the let's go, like attitude at first. Like we were like kids in a candy store. We wanted like literally fuck everybody. Like, and that was cool, right? in the same way monogamy centers romance.

polyamory also centers many romances. And I can tell you that the year before I opened my marriage, I was so comfortable being alone, right? And being quiet in those quiet places and spaces all to myself. And by the time I was in my third year of polyamory, I was terrified of being alone, right? I just, I was just connecting as a means of not checking in with myself anymore.

and I think that was a, a really interesting lesson for me. Um, so much so that. By the time I exited my marriage, and I had two partners at the time, Heidi and cj, that I became very interested in decentralizing romance altogether, which really means that I felt like it had too much power in my life.

And I became very interested in exploring deeply committed relationships that were neither. Sexual nor romantic. and that's why I re relate more to relationship anarchy now, because I find the poly community for, as prude as the poly community can be, they're also really want those signifiers in their definition at times.

for me, the healing place for what I feel like was the checkout of myself, right, Is installing myself at the center of my practice and giving all other love an equal seat at the table, right?

That my romantic relationship can be just as important as my friendships, as my familial relationships. That everything gets a seat at the table and I'm not gonna pedestal romantic relationships anymore.

Fer: how did that look like to you in practice? How do you de-centralize romances from your life for people who might be interested in

Annie: Yeah,

Fer: that?

Annie: I think it's a process, right? I'm still happily deconstructing all the time. But it just started with a simple question, and the question is, do I want this or do I think I should want this? and I think it goes hand in hand with deconstructing mono normativity and heteronormativity.

Um, and for me it's like not feeling a constant need to escalate. Just because my relationship is romantic, I don't need to show up at every family event, right? I don't need to live with my partner full time. I can maintain a residence with my mom and my child part-time, and I can come and go to a shared department with my partner when that's also convenient for me.

Um, it means that we have the freedom to prioritize other things as quote unquote the most important, right? And it doesn't have to be our romantic relationship, right? It's a very, um, mono normative notion to say, like, my relationship with my romantic partner comes first. Well. No, the relationship with my romantic partner comes first when it's appropriate for it to come first.

but my relationship with myself is always first. Um, my relationship with my child is an, an extremely huge commitment in my life that I'm so privileged to be able to honor. and so everything in its proper place at its proper time, right? and I think that that is probably the biggest gift that all of the chaos of my polyamory really gave me in the end.

Fer: and that's why I love about relationship anarchy is like, you can let go of some of those labels, right.

Annie: And just kinda do what feels good for you. To most of, like, monogamous people being like, you have an apartment that you live at 10 days out of the month. Why would you do that? But for me, the ability to leave and take space is super important to me. It feels really good and it makes my relationship really great and sometimes it feels like there's a lot of distance between us.

Um, and that's a reality too. But I have a lot more self security than I've ever had in the past, and I value that differently now.

Fer: Right? Yeah. What I like about you is that you design your own relationships, right? Which I've heard you describe as the definition of relationship anarchy. So it just means instead of following a script, instead of following the rules, just design your own relationship, right?

Annie: So I really love that concept and it actually made me about it in my own relationship because. Even though I hadn't thought of myself necessarily, or like of identifying as a relationship anarchist, I feel like that's what I am, not only because I'm in a non monogamous relationship, but because my partner and I are never like, oh, this is how we need to do things.

Fer: We're always like, okay, let's talk about it. So we do things like taking trips separately and sometimes, I go to Mexico for a month without him and some, oh, we do like solo nights where, I go on a date or I go see a friend, or sometimes even I'm in the house and

he'll be downstairs watching his show. I'll be upstairs watching my show or reading or whatever, and we'll do those types of things that I guess like go back to what your definition of like decentralizing r romance or I guess like

Annie: Breaking down. Yeah, breaking down that mono normativity of like, I have to do these things because I'm coupled.

so tell me, how's your relationship with CJ today? What kind of structure do you guys have? How long have you been together?

So we've been together three years in some change. and today we're, we're basically relationship anarchists, we don't have like some traditional markers of monogamy, for example, emotional exclusivity, right? You can be friends with women, I can be friends with men. We can have, deep, and meaningful relationships with people.

Um, right now we're romantically and sexually exclusive. Um, we're committed to a lot of things in our lives. he's in a PhD program. I'm finishing a degree. we're raising a child. we're traveling all the time. And so I think we are both at emotional capacity, um, which I think is. A really interesting sort of like place to be, right?

I think that emotional capacity is something we don't talk about enough in polyamory. coming out of a divorce, suffering the traumas that, that, I wanna say, not just me, but also my partners at the time, uh, were traumatized by what happened.

obviously you've experienced a lot, um, so from all that and also sounds like a lot of drama and ups and downs and all of that. What would you tell to a Polycurious person, either someone who's early in their journey or even yourself when you had just begun opening up your relationship?

Yeah, I, I always encourage people to slow down. I think you'll never regret going a bit more slowly, but you may regret going a bit too fast. I always give this piece of advice, right? Slow down, go as fast as your slowest member. Um, is is something I like to say a lot with the full knowledge that many people don't wanna do that they, they wanna do their chaos and they wanna just go jump in with both feet, and that's okay too, right?

the other thing I like to tell people is just be gentle with yourself, right? be where you are. you're inevitably gonna end up somewhere. Um. And if you're able to go a little more slowly, that's great. And if you're not like no judgements, just be gentle with yourself.

Fer: Yeah. Yeah, I like that. I find that people who want to go fast, I get it when you're excited about someone, it often backlashes. So

Annie: Yeah,

Fer: tell people if you wanna do it, okay, but know that it might actually. Make the process more difficult and longer because you might traumatize other people, you

Annie: yeah,

Fer: yourself and you, you might think that you'll get to it quicker if you just jump right in.

Annie: yeah.

Fer: sometimes it's the opposite.

Annie: Mm-hmm.

Fer: longer to repair the mess that you cost. So slow down. I think it's a great of advice. awesome.

Annie: thank you so much for being part of the podcast thank you for sharing so openly and this was

Yeah. Thanks for having me.