Kayla: [00:00:00] It's not that I'm jealous of her or their time together because I want more of him or that it's just there's something that I envy that I want for myself. And so I've tried to reframe these uncomfortable feelings as motivation as like, what is this telling you? It's 'cause you think she's so beautiful.

There's things that you can do to take good care of yourself. Or is it because you think that they're well connected and that you know, they write and they do these cool events? Well, you can do those things. Actively had to use these uncomfortable feelings as motivation to get more of what I want from my own life.

Fer: Hi everyone. Welcome to Polycurious. I am Fer relationship coach specializing in non-monogamy. And host of this podcast, and today I have part two of my conversation with Kayla and Carl, if you have not listened to part one yet is the [00:01:00] episode right before this one. So I'd highly recommend that you go and do that first.

But I wanted to have this one as a standalone episode because we actually talked about jealousy and envy. In two very, very different contexts. So interestingly enough, Kayla actually feels no jealousy so far when it comes to Carl's exploration, which we got to talk about in this conversation because.

Actually, for the first time ever, Carl had stepped out of the relationship with a new connection. And not only was it the first time he was exploring non-monogamy, but it was the first time that he was intimate sexually with someone besides Kayla. So fascinating and. One would've thought that because it's something that Kayla hadn't been exposed to, that she would've been jealous, right?

Especially at the beginning, is very normal to experience [00:02:00] jealousy and insecurities. And if you add to that, that Kayla knows that she was the only person that Carl had been with, one would've thought that. She would've had a really difficult time, but she didn't. And I found that very interesting because it's not like she is immune to jealousy.

She's actually experienced a little bit of envy or jealousy when it comes to her other partner's partner. And we start off by talking about that. But the fact that she experienced jealousy with one partner doesn't mean that she experiences. With her husband, and I think that it speaks to the very, very strong connection and trust that they have built over the years.

Right. I definitely think that one can become jealous even if you really trust your partner and even if you're very confident in their relationship. But I do feel like. Sometimes jealousy [00:03:00] is just an expression of insecurities that you already had around the relationship, right? If you feel like your relationship wasn't really strong and didn't have a really strong foundation to begin with, if your partner goes and is with someone else, that shaky ground that you were trying to maybe ignore will be exposed, and maybe that's why.

Kayla doesn't feel jealousy in this situation. And in fact, actually it seems like she might be turned on by hearing about Carl's explorations with other people, but with a new relationship with someone that you know, she's been seeing for a while, but not as long as her husband. She has experienced a little bit of that.

And we talk about how sometimes when we experience jealousy, that's actually information that we can use, right? Like sometimes we. See qualities in someone else that we wish that we had, and sometimes the process of getting over jealousy [00:04:00] is becoming more conscious and aware of how. You being different from somebody else doesn't mean that there's absolutely anything wrong with you.

It's more about learning to embrace those parts of yourself that are different from the person that's the subject of your envy or jealousy. But other times it shows you things that you want to work on, right? Like I've talked about it before, like if your partner is dating someone that's really fit. You might realize that you don't feel great about your body, and it might encourage you to go to the gym and there's nothing wrong with that.

But simultaneously, you need to be working on accepting the limitations of your body and being compassionate with yourself when you're not. Meeting the expectations that you have for yourself, right? So I just thought it was very interesting how different people trigger different feelings for you, different relationships, determine whether you might be jealous or not.

And I [00:05:00] found the conversation overall. Super fun and exciting because I think they were both still sharing that energy from the weekend of discovering that Carl maybe wasn't as monogamous as he thought he was. And that really came true in the conversation and seeing how excited Kayla was about Carl was really sweet.

Now. You might not be that type of person. You might not experience co conversion for your partner, and I want to remind you that there's nothing wrong with that. It is a process. It's not something that comes naturally and easily to people, but also it's kind of nice to see examples of how it can be something that you've.

View as positive and you can feel that compression, but don't judge yourself. If you are not like Kayla and you're having a little bit of a harder time, that's also okay. And you can find that link in the show notes. Okay guys, without further ado, here is part two of my conversation with Kayla and Carol.

Carl: Have you experienced [00:06:00] jealousy with the neighbor?

Kayla: This is complex and feels vulnerable to share. It's interesting when you're engaging in an intimate way with somebody, he and her live a life that is envious to me. Like his wife is so beautiful and they seem so cool and so well connected. And so that kind of brought up some interesting insecurities in me of just realizing like there's something.

That I want, you know, jealousy is information, right, and there, there's something that I want more of from my life, and there's something that they're doing and there's, there's a relationship style and a lifestyle that, that they're achieving that I want, but it feels like jealousy. It feels like envy, and that's kind of a yucky, uncomfortable, and un inspiring feeling at first if you don't.

Examine it a little bit more deeply and [00:07:00] carefully, and having Carl be in a, being in a, a position to mentor me and, and help me process those feelings has also been a really sweet experience between him and I as well.

Carl: Yeah, it's been really good for our dynamic.

Fer: Yeah. So tell me a little bit about how you processed and came to terms with those feelings.

It's interesting because people assume that because we're partnered. Like, why would we be jealous of, you know, our secondaries partners, you know, partner or wife or life or whatever, right. But I had a similar experience where I did experience jealousy at some point with John and this other person that he was seeing.

And it was an interesting thing 'cause I had. Obviously talked to a lot of people, mentored a lot of people on this, but I had never had to experience that because Seth is monogamous. Mm-hmm. And I think that what helped me was, first of all just like getting used to it. You know, I, I really think [00:08:00] it's just like, um, practice thing of like, okay, now I, I need to absorb that this new person is in the dynamic.

I think in your situation it's different because you already knew of the neighbor's wife. When you started dating, but for me it was like, okay, I just need to get used to it. But I think it also helped me ultimately to become more confident in myself and confident in my relationship with John when we had it, where I realized, okay, I'm not like the other person that he's seeing.

And I seen her some things that I wish I had.

Kayla: Yeah.

Fer: And I'm still going to continue working on those.

Kayla: Mm-hmm.

Fer: And at the same time, I had to accept that I'm not that person. And I had to just be like, this is who I am. That's been a good part of, of the process for me. And then the other thing that helped me was to anchor, anchor myself on the things that are, or were special about my relationship with John, which truthfully to me was the sex.

I was like, well, you know, he might have a special connection with [00:09:00] someone else, but I don't think he can have this sexual connection with anyone else. And, and I've been reflecting on that because I was like. Well, what if I didn't have that? Why? What if I didn't have that, like reassurance that he didn't have this with someone else, right?

Like then what? What would I have like held on to feel like confident in my relationship with him? So I don't have an answer to that. Maybe that there would've been something else. 'cause there's always something unique about your relationship with that person, right? Like it doesn't have to be that, but I'm just curious in your process, what has helped you overcome jealousy or insecurity?

Kayla: I mean, you're nailing it in the sense of like, it's just experiencing the emotion and, and sharing it. Um, you know, I've shared some of it with him and what you're saying. I mean, it's not that I'm jealous of. Her or their time together because I want more of him or that it's just there, there's there. It's the information of, there's something that, that I envy that I want for myself as far as idolizing, I, I, she's [00:10:00] just so beautiful.

She dresses so nicely. I wish I was more beautiful and. More, you know, sophisticated and mm-hmm. Trendy and, um, mm-hmm. And evolve certain areas of my life. Um, and just, and, and just these experiences really rapidly bring to the surface so much information of unmet needs or wants or, or insecurities or old wounds.

Um, and that's what I find such a surprising. Experience that seems to be pretty relatable to a lot of people who are exploring e and m. It brings a lot to the surface of things that you want more of for your own life. So it's, it's not that I wasn't happy for them or, or. Don't sincerely love, you, know that they have a great relationship, or that they're wonderful and well connected and beautiful.

It was just information of more, more of what I wanted for my own life, and so I've tried [00:11:00] to reframe these uncomfortable feelings as motivation. I was like, what is this telling you? Is it that you know, again, it's 'cause you think she's so beautiful. There's things that you can do to take good care of yourself.

Or is it because you think that they're well connected and that you know, they write and they do these cool events? Well, you can do those things. You can access. The same things and cultivate your own interesting community. I've actively had to use these uncomfortable feelings as motivation to get more of what I want from my own life, and that's been a really empowering and, um, sort of vulnerable but rewarding, um, process to continue to experience.

And. And, and to share. I mean, even sharing that here, I mean, saying, saying it out loud is sort of uncomfortable, you know, speaking to, like, being envious. Um, and I, of course, I don't mean it in a nefarious or in any sort of put down type of way. It's just, it just brings up a lot of like what you, [00:12:00] what you wish for, for yourself and for your own relationship and.

Instead of drowning in it, I've used it as active. Like, no, this is what I want. This is what, what I will accept and this is what I'm going after and I've just used it as fuel rather than, um, as something that has been hurtful.

Fer: I love that. I love that. And I've talked about this as well before that it can just show you things that you want to work on yourself, right?

So in your case, maybe you're like, well. Seeing that this person dresses so nicely is bringing up insecurities about how I dress and, and that's because maybe I could also use a change of wardrobe and I'm going to pay more attention to how I dress. But I think what's important is that you're not like, oh, I'm going to dress like her, but it's more like, okay, I'm going to dress like.

Yes, I want to dress, but that's something that already was probably something that you had some sort of level of insecurity about. And then just this person just brings it up.

Kayla: It has much less to do with her or them or him, and much more to do with with me and, and. Exactly [00:13:00] the things that you want for yourself in your own life.

Fer: Yeah. So thank you for being open and sharing that, because I think that insight will help people. And sometimes there's nothing to change. Sometimes you're insecure because the person is taller than you, and no matter what you do, you're not gonna grow a couple of inches and you know, that's fine. And then you just have to come to terms.

With the fact that you are small, you know, or whatever, but sometimes you, you can do things about it that that will benefit your life in one way or another. But sounds like you two have a very open line of communication about this type of relating, but I'd be curious to hear, Carl, how do you decide how much you want to hear?

Like. Do you ever have moments where you're like, uh, uh, like, this is a little bit too much, or, you know, how has that process been for, for you?

Carl: Um, it's been, it's been good because Kayla's done a really good job of, um, explaining and [00:14:00] sharing exactly what's going on and kind of testing the waters and seeing how I feel and asking if I wanna hear more, if I wanna hear less.

How much do you wanna hear? Um, or if she, uh, like when some of these relationships were starting, if she needed a little more space to just kind of. Um, explore it and feel, feel the situation out before being asked more questions from me. Um, then, you know, I, I gave her that space to do so, and then as the relationship kind of progressed, she said, Hey, we need to talk.

And I just, I have so much I want to catch you up on mm-hmm. Over the past few weeks, how this has developed, how it's made me feel.

Kayla: Mm-hmm.

Carl: How, um, you know. All of the things that have ha have happened with that relationship. 'cause a lot happens in, in the weeks that go by. Mm-hmm. Um, so she did a really good job of gauging how much I wanted to hear, how much I didn't wanna hear, and then left it open for me to ask [00:15:00] any questions that I found necessary.

Um, and, uh, and it, and it kind of went both ways. She. Had respect for me, didn't wanna make me feel insecure or small. And, uh, and it, and it went the other way for me asking questions for her. I didn't wanna make her feel insecure or any sort of shame, um, towards what she was doing, um, or to, to what, to what we were doing.

And, uh. It, it, it, it really worked well. I

Kayla: think it was helpful to, I tried to always like, explain the motivations behind mm-hmm. What was happening or what I was saying, or if I needed a pause or, you know, my worries about, you know, having him ask too many questions, but I still wasn't. Fully processing or ready to share.

So explaining the motivations and kind of reiterating the, the goal, uh, seemed to be really helpful in him. Um, not that we, because again, we've [00:16:00] never struggled in trust in this department. Mm-hmm. But it's, it's a totally new and, and sort of scary process to do because you just, you, you never know how something is going to land.

And there, there can be big consequences if you're not. Getting it just right.

Fer: Mm-hmm.

Kayla: Uh, and so I was intimidated by that. I trusted Carl. He trusted me, trusts me. But it's, it's intimidating until you sort of get there and you put your foot in the water and you're like, well, it's okay. It's okay. We're we're just fine.

And then I, you know, and even just in having the first handful of experiences having these sort of wild. An amazing gifts of freedom and, and exploration, and then coming home and fighting with the kids to wipe their butt pop properly and make coffee and do the laundry, and it's like, and we're back.

We're back to life, and nothing is burned down and nothing has changed and nothing is fractured. Um, and it's okay if these good experiences and these, especially if you're doing [00:17:00] 'em with the right people. So I've tried to be really, I have been, uh, really

Carl: mm-hmm.

Kayla: Really discerning on, on doing this with the right people.

Fer: Yeah. Yeah. And I think that just like anything, the more you do it, the more. Second nature, it becomes to like, know how much, oh, know how much to share or know how much to ask or you know, like what the comfort level is. You just kind of become more comfortable with it. I mean, you've been with, uh, the neighbor for many months at this point, so I'm sure that things have become a lot easier as time has gone by.

I'm curious if you both have. Partners, like where do you normally meet up? Do you get like a hotel room or is it like when, when Carl or, or his wife is not home?

Kayla: Uh, I mean, it's been different with, I mean, with each person, uh, you know, the single people tend to have their own homes, right? We're not necessarily comfortable or with having [00:18:00] people in our home.

And my friend partner is the same. So yeah, a nice hotel and a nice sort of sexy environment is, is. Great. Uh, and then Carl has his own unique evolution that just occurred. We shared a little bit about if, if you wanna,

Fer: yeah, no, yeah, I, that's exactly what I wanted to talk about now, so, yeah. I'm not gonna spoil it for the listener.

So just tell us, tell us what happened.

Carl: Well, it's, it's still pretty fresh, so I'm still processing. Yeah.

Kayla: So this weekend, again, even like as, as soon as, as last week, you know, us touching base on all the things and Carl's like, nah, it's not for me. It's not for me. I just listen. I don't want quit, quit hounding me because I was like, I really think you just need to have your own experience.

Fer: Yeah.

Kayla: And he was like, I'm just not interested. I don't wanna do it. Doesn't feel right. Happy for you, just stop talking about it. I was like, whatever. And uh, this weekend we went to a cocktail party at an art gallery on [00:19:00] Friday, uh, with some friends, a group of folks who, who know our situation know. Um, I've been pretty open about it.

They've. Listen to my essay as I've done a couple literary open mics. Um, my essay is on, you know, my reflections on polyamory and non-monogamy. Um, and so they're sort of open-minded and curious. Anyways, one of the curators was at the event on Friday and we're all sort of having cocktails and having a good time.

And, you know, Carl's getting increasingly more comfortable as we both are. And him and one of these women were just sort of hitting it off. And I found it really interesting. I was sort of seeing what was happening. Um, she knew that we were open and next thing you know, he is going home with one of the girls from the cocktail party with my blessing and encouragement.

Carl: Mm-hmm.

Kayla: And it was weird that it wasn't weird at all. I was. Thrilled. I was so happy for him. He seemed really comfortable and excited and she seemed sort of [00:20:00] shocked and excited and couldn't believe that.

Carl: Yeah, I

couldn't

Kayla: believe it. His wife was cool with it and she found him really attractive and

Carl: mm-hmm.

Kayla: They had great chemistry and I was thrilled. I thought it was so fun and so exciting. And so Carl, our mono poly Situationist has uh, changed and he, um, and this weekend we have to spend. I'm

Carl: laughing,

Kayla: laughing, laughing and, and, and talking about all the things and just really, it has been a deep dive into a new level of relating.

And you know, where it was like, of course he understood what I would describe as my experience and he had felt some coersion and some discomfort and he, you know, you can conceptualize it until you have crazy experience, until you have raw passion and. Fuck a girl in a bathroom.

Fer: Wait, was it at a bathroom?

Carl: Well, it, it was, uh, in [00:21:00] many a different, many different, uh, settings.

Fer: This is crazy. And this is, this is only the second person you've ever had sex with, right?

Carl: Yeah. And that was, that was, yeah, that was another part of it too. I was like, this is, it was really surreal for me.

Kayla: Wow. And I, I wanted him to have that experience.

I sort of wanted to break that. Um. Pedestal he had.

Fer: So wait, wait, wait. I have so many questions. So. Before you had sex in the bathroom, did you check with Kayla? Were you like, Hey, can I have sex with this, or did it just happen And I sent

Kayla: them together? Yeah. I was like, listen, I gotta go relieve the babysitter.

This is literally what I said. They were sort of making out and sort of,

Fer: oh, okay. No, it wasn't the bathroom at the cocktail

Kayla: spot. And I said, I gotta go relieve the babysitter word for word. I go, you two should go home together. Okay. I was like, because I'm leaving. Yeah. And uh. You two are going home together.

And they were both like, okay, like stars in their eyes. And I was like, love you, bye. [00:22:00] And they did. And Carl doesn't,

Carl: he's

Kayla: not

Carl: a big, and it wasn't like go home together with her. It was like, if you want like. You know, it was to, you know, yeah. I

Kayla: knew, I knew, knew what was gonna happen. Yeah. Or that was on them, but of course, yeah.

They knew what direction it was going in and I, I was thrilled by it. Like, I thought it was great. It was so sweet. She is a sweet person. She's a sweet, quirky personality.

Carl: Mm-hmm.

Kayla: And, uh, he sort of vibes with people like that. And I, to see him sort of comfortable and flirting, I loved it. I thought it was really.

For me, I'm more of a kitchen table Polly. Like I'm appealed to that. I'm very comfortable, uh, which is not a surprise. I'm, I'm very comfortable with intimacy. Um, so it, it sort of worked out in the perfect way that I like, knew her. She actually wanted to, she actually wanted to take me home. Home, I hope.

Originally she was like trying to make out with me at a certain point, which is not, I mean, I'm, I, I think it's fun, it's playful. I, I wouldn't say I'm sexually motivated by it, but I found it sort of fun and playful and. [00:23:00] So the energy in that way was kind of ramping up. We were all having fun with it. Um, but, and she was like, well, next weekend, basically like, wanted to sleep with me and have him watch, which we are just like.

Yeah, that's not our thing, but maybe, maybe, and she was gassed over it, but then they continued to flirt. I, I'm like open-minded to it, but it would have to be sort of spontaneous and I, I didn't wanna pencil it into the calendar. And, uh, yeah. And then they sort of moved and, and were flirting with each other as I just, you know, continued to socialize with my friends.

And it was just, it was, it was worked out perfectly. It was exactly how I'd want it to go. That, you know, I know her. I, I, I think she's. Really super sweet. And I, I knew exactly what was gonna go down and he came home. I mean, stars in his eyes. He looked three inches taller. He was, uh, it was so much laughing and, and it's been such a fun weekend, um, sharing in this experience in a whole new way.

[00:24:00] Now, a whole

Fer: new way. Well, I want, I want to hear about the weekend, but first. I wanna hear from Carl. Tell us more about like, what, what was the experience like for you?

Carl: The underlying part of the experience was comfort. Like, I, I didn't feel like scared or insecure or anything, but that being said, my heart was pounding.

You know, there were butterflies in my chest and, and just, I hadn't felt that feeling in a long time. I had forgotten about it. I'd kind of shelved it and, and, and that really. I found that really energizing, that was really interesting and new again. Um, like I'm not very experienced in the sexual, sexual world as far as like partners and engaging in that way to have already had.

Have lived a life and, and, you know, had a, have had a great partner. I felt very secure and I didn't feel like insecure, engaging, even though it was only the second person I've ever

Kayla: with. And she was like, been with so into him that his

Carl: confidence [00:25:00] was through, um, and the compliments. Yeah, the compliments were so wonderful, so great.

Just, uh, about my looks, my personality. It was just, it was really building me up a lot. It felt so good. It was refreshing because in a, in a long-term relationship, you kind of lose that spark of like those, those new compliments. Like you, you see this person every day and you just kinda get used to, used to them, used to their body and um, it was like.

It, it was like watching her face was like watching somebody open a Christmas present at Christmas. It was just, it was really refreshing and exciting, um, and, and very passionate. It was, it was just new and different. Um. It was

Fer: interesting. So how did you approach the conversation with Kayla when you realized of the Bible?

Or was Kayla, were you the one that was like, Hey, are you guys, or like how

Carl: did you already approach [00:26:00] open? Yeah, it was a pretty open conversation.

Kayla: It was obvious they were flirting with each other. Yeah. And I was, I would see it and I would just encourage it. Well, we were at the party, I was like, go for it.

Carl: Mm-hmm.

Kayla: Uh, so he didn't have to approach the conversation with me at all. I was sort of leading that conversation of like. Get, get 'em Tiger. And she was open to it. So yeah, there, there was no

Fer: worries.

Kayla: My opinion.

Fer: And, and it sounds like you didn't experience any jealousy, which in a way makes sense, but in another way.

I don't know. I, I think that like for most people, usually there's a little bit of like jealousy. Why do you think, Kayla, why do you think that that is?

Kayla: I completely trust Carl and I really, I. Surprisingly, but maybe unsurprisingly, this is very natural for me. Um, I don't struggle with jealousy in that way.

Again, jealousy for me is more sort of shows up in my own insecurities and [00:27:00] I am pretty good at processing what that information means and not putting it on him. And I know, and I've seen through, just through this last year, I have seen Carl's. Just profound love and commitment to me and our relationship and his good experiences.

That, and, and now especially that I've had them, um, myself, I realize they're not a threat to me. It's sort of in the same category, like when he goes rock climbing and goes snowboarding and has a. Fucking blast and comes home happy and energized and revitalized on his life. Like, would I be jealous of the snowboard?

No. Like the snowboard is, gives him an experience that I can't.

Fer: Right. But you could never be a snowboard, but you're a woman, right? So you could never give him what the snowboard gives him. So I, I totally feel what you're saying. And at the same time, I think also, especially 'cause it's a, Carl's first time with someone else.

I don't know. I would [00:28:00] imagine in my case, I'd be like, oh, now that he knows that, you know, it's not just me like now that he has someone to compare it with, you know what I mean? Like, how is it different than, you know? I don't know.

Kayla: I just don't feel, uh, intimidation in that way. I know, like I know our relationship is solid and I know, like for me as a person, I, I think that I have a lot of really.

Good qualities that would be hard to replicate. I don't feel threatened by other women and I, I just don't feel threatened by other women, sort of, uh, fundamentally, um, like I'm, I'm a cheerleader for, for people and for good experiences and for intimacy and, uh, I just. Didn't experience that at all. Like I, I was laughing and so happy I was sort of turned on by it also, I was sort of, it's exciting for me.

I am, I potentially might be a little bit more into it. Yeah. Uh, than he's definitely not into it. He definitely doesn't get any good sexual feelings [00:29:00] from like the details that I've shared. Um. It's, it's less, it's making him grossed out or uncomfortable.

Carl: Yeah. It's not like, it's not uncomfortable anymore to hear the more explicit details that Kayla's willing to share.

So,

Kayla: and, and after this weekend, it, it seems like we've crossed over a whole new territory of like, comfort in sharing. Mm-hmm. Now that we share in the experience of like. How fun it is to have a wild, crazy sex experience like that. It's such a specific, unique experience that could absolutely never be recreated in domestic life, in long-term partnership.

Um, and it's so fun. Mm-hmm.

Carl: And

Kayla: it doesn't hurt our relationship to have those good experiences, especially if we're doing it, like I said, with the right people and the right intentions. And we're not, we're not doing it to escape. Each other, we're doing it to add more [00:30:00] fuel. Into the machine of our life and that, and it's achieving that and it, I felt so happy to see him.

And when I was home, I felt so happy to know that like this woman is sort of going through a divorce from a guy who will never be as great and wonderful as a. Carl's also like the nicest, most hardworking, sweet person. So I felt like I was giving her a gift and because he is just such a great guy and he is a good lover, you know, he reports, you know, just not having a lot of experiences, but he is, um.

He is a great athletic, high standoff. He's great. So I felt like, oh, this girl's going to have a great time. And I felt like I was giving her a gift. It made me feel good. I was like excited for them and knowing that, oh, that's

Fer: wonderful.

Kayla: I was like, she is gonna rock him. And it's, it's, I was so happy for him to receive that.

Um, I loved it

Fer: so. So, Carol, how are you feeling now after the fact? I [00:31:00] mean, also just the experience itself of again, having sex with someone else for the first time and like experiencing a different body and all of that, and then coming back home to your life and being like, okay, what does this mean for me moving forward?

You know,

Carl: I'm still kind of in the process of processing it, um

Fer: mm-hmm.

Carl: And, uh, it, it feels really surreal, but not. Like, I don't feel any lack of security within our relationship at all.

Kayla: I think we feel closer.

Carl: Yeah. I feel, I feel like it's brought us a little bit closer now. Part of it is now I can kind of relate to, okay, this is how the experience looks when you're with another partner outside of the marriage and what it brings to the table and how it makes you feel and how you use that feeling to better the connection between.

Between each other.

Kayla: Mm-hmm.

Carl: Mm-hmm. Um, and, uh, really helps with the [00:32:00] communication between partners

Kayla: and the sort of the, the friendship. Yeah. And it's, it's fun for us to feel like we have sort of this. Funny little secret between us now when we're like in the mundane, he can kinda look at me and shake his head and then I laugh 'cause I fucking know what he's thinking about.

And so it takes the boring, hard experiences that can kind of crush you as an adult, as a domestic partner, as parents, my God, it takes, you know, stirring the macaroni and that squishy sound. Now suddenly you're thinking of. What crazy sex you had with the guy who lives across the street, you know, or the woman from the, from the cocktail party.

And, and, uh, it makes you laugh. It makes, it brings, like we keep saying it and now he gets it, but it brings you energy. Like I find myself in meetings and I'm zoning out and I'm zoning out thinking of one like this. Beautiful. Funny friendship that we [00:33:00] have that most married people would wish to have. This type of depth and honesty and mm-hmm.

And truth telling between them. And I think of the crazy intense sexual energy I get to have that dies in so many relationships. Um, and I feel so grateful and I feel so. Just excited by it. Um, and it makes life just so much more interesting and I feel like I have something interesting to look forward to.

Um, and then it, it, it, and that of course comes home and translates, you know, between him and I, we have this sort of. Sexy, fun secret that we can share in a glance, you know, at Thanksgiving and just, and that's, that's exciting. That's exciting

Fer: for us. So when Carl came back from the experience, you wanted to hear about it and that turned you on and you guys fed into that energy, or how did you approach it?

Carl, were you like, hesitant to share? What was the experience like for you? Um,

Carl: [00:34:00] the experience was really, really fun and new. Um, and I was. I, I wouldn't say hesitant, but at first I was like, I wanna make sure I'm like, have a second to. Like, have a decent conversation with you. 'cause I'm coming home now. You know, the kids are up and like bopping around and, uh, it's not something you can like pick up and, you know, pick up and drop the, the conversation, you know?

Mm-hmm. And get interrupted by, um, the day-to-day life. But, uh, we were able to, um, talk about it throughout the morning and, um.

Kayla: Because he kept you

Carl: like it was really

Kayla: nice. Are you sure you wanna know?

Carl: Yeah. I'm like, are you sure you want me to share this? Because I'll, I'll be honest and I'll share

Kayla: Yeah.

Carl: Any detail you wanna know.

And I feel comfortable sharing any of those details with you. So, and, and

Kayla: I've also like, had enough of my own experiences in e and m and, and prior to him that it's like, I know it's not my first rodeo. I know how these things go. I know the feeling that you're experiencing and eye,

Carl: oh, that [00:35:00] lifted eyebrow.

Tell me everything I need

Kayla: to know. It's like, I know and I'm happy for him. Exciting to see him.

Carl: Mm-hmm.

Kayla: His sort of mind blown like that. Mm-hmm. Like that was, that was really cool to see. It was really cool. Mm-hmm. So, yeah. And, and the details don't bother me at all. It's,

Fer: well, you're saying you think it, they might actually turn you on.

Kayla: Little bit. A little bit. Yeah. I, I mean, I definitely, it, yeah. It was exciting.

Fer: Mm-hmm. That's awesome. That's awesome.

Kayla: And that's new information for me. I mean, that's, yeah. So getting this information, this new illumination about, um, your sexual drivers is, uh, fun. It's fun to play with that energy.

Fer: Wonderful.

So how, how do things like look like moving forward? You mentioned that now you're planning a date with her. I don't know, did you talk about what that will be like?

Carl: Um, we just have to communicate, you know, it's like [00:36:00] first and foremost, like Kayla and I have to be on the same page when it comes to dedicating any sort of time.

You know, it can't take away from our family and, um, our day-to-day life and, uh. Yeah, so it just has to be a discussion before anything's set in stone, or

Kayla: he's more nervous about it than I am. I was Googling like best places for dinner in St. Paul and making sure he doesn't fuck it up.

Uh, so yeah, I think so. It's, it's, it's fun to see him sort of transition from, I don't see how it could work. I'm not interested to, like, I think I'm gonna take her to dinner. Are you cool with that? I'm like, yeah, of course. Yeah. I'm off work at this time. And, um, it just seems funny. It's just like any other, it feels like it's in the same category as any other.

Experience that he finds really fun and compelling to do. Like, I encourage him to take long snowboarding trips. I encourage him to explore in his [00:37:00] career and, and to travel or to do, you know, he likes extreme sports. Um, I love to see him inspired and in his element and energized, um, that benefits me. As far as like elevating him in, in my view, and the more experiences he has, I think also the more it puts me in, um, a more curious, submissive role.

And that is, um, comfortable and, and sort of erotically appealing for me as well. To, to have him have these experiences that, so then again, like it comes back to, it's not just me sort of leading the charge in everything.

Fer: Mm-hmm.

Carl: I encourage it.

Kayla: Yeah. It's fun to see him nervous and exciting. This, that's a new Yeah.

Engagement. Um, but you know, besides that, the, the typical day to day-to-day, what that looks like, the monotony of it, um, the new energy is really appealing.

Fer: Yeah. Wonderful. Well, I'm excited to hear, [00:38:00] maybe we'll have a part two at some point, or a little patron episode or something to hear how things evolve because I'm very curious, uh, to see what, yeah, I'll

Kayla: love to check in after, after a couple dates and see

Carl: Well, the time, I mean, yeah, yeah.

We'll see. Few months ago. Um, whoa. Yeah.

Fer: Okay. Wonderful. Okay, well, so I usually like to end my interviews asking what will you tell to a poly curious person, so your yourselves earlier in your journey, or just someone who's new. Any insights you might be able to share that you think that would've been helpful to have at the beginning?

Kayla: My advice is always don't be afraid to tell the truth. Don't be afraid to have the hard conversation. Mm-hmm. Don't be afraid to be vulnerable and don't be intimidated by experiences that are in the, in the unknown. You know, as long as you're telling the truth. [00:39:00] And you know, putting yourself

Carl: and you're, yeah, that's underlying, as long as the truth is being told and both of you, you know that your partner, you feel secure.

Bet you know this. Mm-hmm. The relationship between your partner is secure.

Kayla: Mm-hmm.

Carl: There's not really a whole lot of negative

Kayla: Well,

Carl: things that could come from it.

Kayla: Yeah.

Carl: Um.

Kayla: It is just feelings are just information. You know, even if they're hard and uncomfortable, they're just information. And even if you're having a negative experience or feeling, it can be beneficial if you frame it in the right way.

Just explore it, examine your feelings, examine. What feels yucky and why, and what feels scary and why? And, and sort of once you get there and immerse yourself, you realize there's not as much to be afraid of. If you have the capacity to be self-aware, accountable, reflective, and honest, uh, you're, you're going to have a mostly good experience in relationships if you're doing it with the right people, as.

Fer: Beautiful. Yeah. I think that you two have a [00:40:00] really strong relationship and based on trust and based on wanting the other person to be their full selves. So I'm really glad we had these conversations 'cause we need more examples of people like you so other, other couples can become inspired or other women becoming inspired to break up with men that are not serving them, or men with women that are not serving them or whatever.

But you know, like to encourage people to go and find. Relationships that feel that way where you trust each other, where you want each other to be your best selves. So you just have that space to have really open and honest conversations and just explore and see where this leads you. And I love that you're.

Parents as well, you know, showing that this can also be a really great thing to take you away from the monotony of family life and all of that. So thank you so much for coming to the show and yeah, looking forward to hearing how things evolve in the next, [00:41:00] um, few weeks and months.

Kayla: Yeah, we'll be in touch and, and just sex is fun and pleasure is good for you.

That's.

Fer: Indeed, indeed. I love it.