Nicolle:  [00:00:00] I also got to experience myself in this really, really healthy dynamic with this, couple with a man and a woman and that dynamic.

Actually helps me realize that I didn't want polyamory at all. It's funny, it wasn't the, problematic dynamic that did it. It was actually the wonderful dynamic that did it because I said to myself at the end of it, if this is the best that it can be, and this is amazing, why do I still feel like it's actually not for me?

 when I picture the version of love that actually makes me feel anchored, it's not a life of constant negotiation with multiple partners. It's not trying to pretend that jealousy is somehow a, a base brute emotion that I'm meant to bludgeon out of me through exposure,

 I realize that I'm not a person who wants to [00:01:00] obliterate hierarchy, that I actually want to be the number one person in somebody's life as a non-negotiable.  

Fer (2): Hi everyone. Welcome to Polycurious, the show for those curious about non-monogamy. I am Fer your host, and also a relationship coach, and today we're talking about BDSM. If you've ever been curious about dominance and submission, I think you're going to get a lot out of this episode because we not only talk about what it is and even how you could even tune into those parts of yourselves.

I think especially as women, we have a hard time tuning into our dominant. Self, but also we talk about the therapeutic benefits, the potential therapeutic benefits of BDSM. And my guest today, Nicolle Hodges, is actually writing a book [00:02:00] on this very subject, and she has experience. Both being a lifestyle dominatrix and we get to talk about her personal journey, getting into that, and also as, as submissive in her personal life

So after Nicolle tells us how she kind of fell into becoming a dominatrix and how she kind of felt like she, and how she kind of felt like it was her calling to actually do so. She tells us about her non monogamous journey, and even though she's still in the BDSM world, she's actually decided to step away from non-monogamy after her last relationship, and she tells us why.

And. honestly, I love interviewing people who have tried non-monogamy and realized it wasn't for them because I do not think that it is for everyone, and I think it comes with a lot of trade offs, and even myself [00:03:00] at this moment in my life, I'm questioning if that's something that I truly want.

And Nicolle shares a lot of really great points. I think in her case, the reason why she started exploring non-monogamy was precisely because she was a dominatrix when she met her last partner,

And because she didn't want to give up that part of herself, they opened the relationship up.

But ultimately Nicolle realized that it just isn't for her. The amount of conversations, scheduling, managing jealousy, and all of those things just felt like too much for her. And also she realized that she was actually using non-monogamy as a way

To maybe fill some gaps in her relationship that

had she not been non monogamous, she couldn't have been able to ignore.

I find this fascinating because yes, there's nothing wrong with meeting different needs by different people, but sometimes those needs can be core needs, right? That you need in every single relationship. And because you're getting it in one, [00:04:00] you might actually kind of neglect the work that the other one needs to also get that need met.

But that wasn't her only reason, and we get to talk about how she sees. Her relationship today, and even though they're monogamous,

They have the freedom to speak about their desire for other people, and she was really inspired by this book called The New Monogamy, which I will make sure to link in the show notes in case you are curious to check out. But basically, even if you are doing monogamy, you don't necessarily need to follow the script.

You can still talk to your partner about your desires and how you might want to design your relationship. So I encourage you to check that out if you're interested in that concept. And also to check out Nicolle's Substack where she also talks about BDSM, and several topics that we discussed today.

It used to be called the Sexual Freedom Philosopher, but she's recently changed the name To both sides of the [00:05:00] slash

and she's a very intelligent writer, so I highly recommend that you go and check that out. And also if you want to connect with her, follow her on Instagram at Nicolle double L. Her book unfortunately, is not out yet, but I will make sure to add the link as soon as out.

So if you are watching or listening in the future, the link might already be there. and if not, go over to Nicolle's Instagram. Again, that's Nicolle Double L. To stay tuned for when her book comes out. Okay, guys, I hope that you enjoy this conversation as much as I did. Here is my interview with the amazing Nicolle Hodges.

Fer: Nicolle, I'm so happy to talk to you. I think that we've been loosely in touch for years now. I think the, the first time that we actually connected was, um, because we were both going to go to Wonderland, the psychedelic conference. and [00:06:00] then I saw you again in New York at a house party, and I've been following your Instagram and your work, so I'm super excited to have this conversation with you.

Nicolle: Me too. Thank you for having me on.

Fer: Yeah, of course. I, I won't attempt to introduce you because I feel like you have like five different things that you're doing. So I'm gonna give you the floor to explain to everyone what, what you're up to, which I think it's awesome that your work covers a little bit of everything. You know, you are in the psychedelic space, BDSM, and you know, some other things.

So I'll, I'll leave it up to you to tell the listeners who you are.

Nicolle: Thank you. I recently came across a word the other day of multi-passionate, and I thought, okay, that really works. And I don't know if you know the mantra we're not the mantra, the, the slogan, the term, whatever the, that goes, jack of all trades, master of none. But the second half of, of [00:07:00] that is oftentimes better than a master of one.

And that makes me feel a lot. Of comfort because I don't know if anyone else relates to this, but sometimes loving so many things at once seems that your attention is pulled in all these directions and you wanna do it all, and life suddenly seems so short and the days even shorter to get it all done.

But if I could try to synthesize what it is that I do, um. I often create and play right at the edges of culture. As a journalist, my specialty is in disruptive markets, so I was at the forefront of reporting on cannabis legalization in Canada, primarily helping to craft some of the earliest educational content to change public perception around cannabis.

I then moved into psychedelics and did a lot of psychedelic journalism [00:08:00] reporting on how psychedelics was impacting culture. Then I moved into cryptocurrency and blockchain, and then in many ways now my focus is on human sexuality and specifically kink and BDSM. So exploring the therapeutic potential of BDSM, as well as how BDSM can have a positive impact on your life in making you a better leader and a better lover.

Then I also have a focus on masculinity and have been doing a project for the last 10 years called Men Who Take Bath, where I've been documenting, well, almost 10 years, I've been documenting the evolution of masculinity in a Post Me Too world, you can call it.

So since 2017, I've been putting men in bubble baths and interviewing them about what it means to be a man as a way to document the, um, changing psychology and male identity [00:09:00] of the, you know, quote modern man. And so that's been a really important project for me as well. Uh, also, obviously a lot of fun. Um, and then.

Yeah. Other than that, um, other than those two main projects, I would say I primarily identify, um, as a writer, director, producer, content creator. Again, kind of always poking at the edges, um, or poking at the, the taboo. So my substack, I know we'll kind of get into this, but if anybody wants to follow my substack, it's the sexual freedom philosopher, which is where I really dive into all of these things.

Um, from a personal perspective, I know we're gonna talk about this too, my exploration of polyamory and then my return to monogamy, um, I write about as well. [00:10:00] In many ways, I treat my life like an experiment.

Fer: Yeah, yeah. You know, I identify with a lot of what you're saying. I also studied journalism now. I'm a relationship coach and a podcast producer, and people are kind of like, oh, wait, you're both things that don't seem to be related to one another. And I have a lot of different interests. Maybe not as many as as you do, but I identify with that, um, you know, curiosity of life that I think probably led us to study journalism and get into different worlds and learn different things.

 however, for the purpose of this conversation, I think we're gonna focus on BDSM, on non-monogamy. Um, so let's start maybe with, uh, BDSM, 'cause I know that you were for a time, a lifestyle domme, which I would also like you to explain a little bit what that is.

But where did your interest, for that come from? Because I find that as a society, and that's another thing I want to talk to you about, we [00:11:00] women are not encouraged to be dominant, right. Is quite the opposite. So even as someone like myself who is interested in exploring kink, in exploring different dynamics, I've always been more of a sub.

And the moments where I've tried to explore wanting to explore what it's like to be. Or no, not a domme, but dominant as a, as a woman sexually not something that there's really much education about. It's not, it is not something that you really like that it's like easy to even try out. Right. So how did your personal interest start on this subject?

How did you even realize that was a thing that you enjoyed or, or wanted to try out?

Nicolle: I was 28 years old when. even came into my sphere of awareness, and it was by accident throughout my life. I always found myself naturally in [00:12:00] leadership roles, starting with being the oldest sister of two younger brothers, growing up in quite a violent household with quite a mercurial mother, and needing to, in many ways step into a parental role quite early on,

Uh, you know, as my journey through BDSM continued, I did realize in some ways that, um, there were parts of myself that I was rejecting, and I actually did find that when I went and explored submission. So I've, I've been on both sides, but in terms of dominance, yeah. Older sister tended to be, you know, captain of teams in high school tended to rise quite quickly in any organization that I was a part of, into a leadership role.

And so I feel these things came quite naturally to me, but I describe it in the book as well as wandering down the hallway of my mind, opening up all these [00:13:00] doors, trying to find the thing that was, that seemed to be missing this energy inside of me, that no matter how many leadership roles I found myself in, it was like I couldn't quite reach.

Or fill this longing that I had for something more. And it was through a bad date and an accidental text. I went on a i on a date with a man and I could usually get a sense of a man pretty quickly as to whether I was interested in him or if he was interested in me, so on and so forth.

And with this one particular man, it was like there, he was covered in a gray fog and I just, I couldn't get a read. And you know, we went on a couple of dates and by the end of, I think it was the third date, he hadn't tried to kiss me even though we were on our third date. And I was like, okay, this just, this isn't going anywhere.

This isn't working. And so I, you know, I sent him a text when I got inside and was like, Hey, you know this, this isn't going anywhere. And he kind of gave me a lukewarm response, like, oh, okay, that's fine. [00:14:00] And I sent my friend a text and I said, please don't throw shade at me. Okay. This was a long time ago, but I was like, you know, I finally got rid of that guy.

I'm pretty sure he's gay and just doesn't know it. But I accidentally sent that text to him and you know, the little ellipses pop up show that he's typing and I'm kind of sitting there and

Fer: Oh my God.

Nicolle: Like you're such an asshole for saying this. Like, whatever this man says back to you, you completely deserve.

So I was in a really open space and he sent back two words, and those two words, in many ways changed the direction of my life. And he said, go on. And I have no idea why, but it was like all these gears had been shifting in my body slightly out of rotation. And then with those two words, they just clicked into place.

 this was the moment where I [00:15:00] knew for whatever reason, by this man saying, go on. He was giving me permission. He wanted to be humiliated. He liked the fact that I called him gay and said something about finally getting rid of him. And there was no indication at any other point in my life that would've hinted that I would've known what to do in that moment.

And yet, for whatever reason, I knew exactly what to do. And we proceeded to have the most honest two hour conversation that I think I've ever. Or I mean, had, had with anybody up until that point in my life, and certainly with him where, you know, he's saying all these words and I'm just madly Googling on my phone.

Like, what, what does dom sub dynamic mean? What does ification mean? What does, what's a chastity belts, what's, you know, like all of these, what, what's a cuck? And so [00:16:00] I'm, I'm reading all these things and, and rather than feeling, you know, disgust or embarrassment or judgment, none of those things existed in me.

The only thing that kept coming up was, was curiosity, intrigue. And this feeling that I had was teetering on the edge of something that was deeply fulfilling and, and was going to be life changing for me. And that for whatever reason, I was perfectly suited to. Go down into that world. And so going back to the visual of, you know, going down this hallway and trying to open up all these doors, when those gears clicked into place, I felt like I heard a click and I looked down and there was a cellar door.

You know, so there I was looking for these doors that I could see, but meanwhile, it was like I had to go down into the darkest parts of myself to find the part of me that I had been looking for. [00:17:00] And so at the end of this two hour conversation, he says, can I take you somewhere you've never been before?

And I'm thinking, okay, we're gonna go to a new restaurant that we haven't been to, and we're finally gonna keep talking the way that we're talking now, which is actually honest and interesting. And I check my inbox and there's a ticket to Berlin for the next day. And so the next day I'm in the backseat of an Uber.

On my way to the airport to go to Berlin for the first time, to dom this man Googling how to be a dominatrix. And

Fer: Oh wow.

Nicolle: all of these posts are popping up and, and you know, mind you, this was seven years ago, so you know, you think there's a lack of information. Now imagine seven years ago how sparse this was.

But you know, I kept coming across blog posts that more so talked about implements, how to use a Cato nine tails properly, why not to use handcuffs in the [00:18:00] bedroom. What do, what is bondage? You know, all these things, what rope to buy and what rope not to buy for your first time. All these things. And I'm like, okay, these are all the tools, but like, what does it actually mean psychologically, spiritually, emotionally, to be a domme?

And to hold that, I was like, there must be more to it. And I thought about my life and I thought about, in a weird way, all of the things that had created the perfect. I guess environment or circumstances to help me understand what it actually meant to be a responsible domme. And so much about that is attunement and perception and communication and compassion and, and nonjudgmental behavior.

And to really be able to hold someone in the narrow scope of your attention with, with love and curiosity and reflect them back to themselves and give them permission to be who they want to be. In your eyes and in your present and through your direction and your leadership [00:19:00] and through all of the things that I had been through in my life at that point, I, I knew that I had the core values of it, the very things that weren't actually being talked about at the time or the information was really hard to find.

And the only thing that I really had to do was then learn how to use the tools properly. Um, and to this day, I teach that. The most important tool is, is, is your voice and your sense of self. Everything else is secondary. But in that moment, in the backseat of that Uber saying yes to this adventure, I promise that I would dedicate my life to teaching first learning, then teaching, but always being curious about this world.

Fer: Wow. So it really felt almost like a calling when he said, go on. So what did you respond when he said, go [00:20:00] on.

Nicolle: As soon as I didn't shut this person down, they completely opened up to me and started telling me about this world of BDSM and, and their particular kinks. And this man in particular, he is a very masculine looking man. I mean, by all accounts, you know, he's the kind of man where when he wears t-shirts, it, the t-shirt stretches across his, you know, broad sculpted chest.

He has a chiseled jawline, you know, he has a buttery South African accent. You know, he has beautiful eyes and bone structure and you know, he's highly successful and he's a leader in his own regard. So he, so physically he has all of these traits that would signal a masculine man, but he has a micro penis.

He literally has a penis the size of a baby carrot and. He enjoyed and, and, and [00:21:00] in many ways this is, this is how he transmuted his shame, you could call it, into something that felt empowering. But he loved having his tiny penis called an enlarged clit, and he enjoyed if I, you know, tied a shoestring around it and then braided flowers through it or have him prance around in frilly, very girly lingerie over the next five years.

He loved me teaching him how to be a woman. And this was something where rather than stewing in this feeling of, as a man, I'm not good enough in this one particular area of my sexuality, if I. Play into being a woman. Then again, in this one area, I can feel like I'm celebrated rather than, than feel ashamed, [00:22:00] um, for what I have or what I rather what I don't have.

And so, you know, none of this, again, I knew at the time I didn't know a sissification meant. Some people also say that Sissification is a bit of a derogatory term, but I'm using it because

Fer: Can you explain to people what that is?

Nicolle: it's a man essentially, um, enjoying the feeling of being turned into a woman.

Um, and so this can be something that he willingly enjoys, or this can be forced Sissification, which is when you, again, consensually allow your domme to forcefully. Turn you into a woman and you know, air quotes against your will.

 You're not responsible for doing it. It's not a choice. It's something that you are, do, had you do. Um, and you know, I didn't think we'd get into rape fantasies and consensual non-consent so [00:23:00] quickly, but while we're on this topic, you know, I will say that rape fantasies for many are, you know, very controversial.

Not in the sense that, you know, people have them at all, but. The big question about, okay, well why, why do so many people have them when it's such a traumatizing thing outside of a sexual fantasy? But I think what a lot of people don't understand is it's not the rape per se, that people are fantasizing about, but it's the sensation of being overcome.

It's the sensation of doing, of being forced into something against your will. And for, let me give an example. Let's say somebody grew up in an incredibly religious, strict household where any sexual act was looked down [00:24:00] upon if, like they might have a fantasy or a kink around consensual non-consent.

Because they won't feel the shame that they've done something wrong willingly if they were overcome and forced to do it. So in many ways, they could straddle this line of full sexual expression and liberation, and the sensation of doing something transgressive at the same time.

Fer: Yeah, that's interesting because I definitely feel identified with being turned on by air quotes, that that's an important part to say. Like being forced to do something right. Like something that, like we've talked about before. That I'm okay with, but that's kind of pushing my boundaries. And usually the way I play with it is, you know, I have to be, you know, turned onto a level.

Like, you have to turn me onto a level where I'll allow you to do this thing that usually I wouldn't let other people do. Right? But I think what you are talking about, it's a little bit different, right? [00:25:00] Like, it's more like, I don't want to feel responsible for having chosen this, and I want to at least pretend that I didn't choose it, although of course I did choose it, right?

So I think that there's many very fascinating ways in which BDSM can, can play a role in kind of like scratching an itch for lack of a better word. Um, I do wanna hear more about This sub. So, so, okay. So you, so you have a conversation, he tells you, I'm gonna take you to Berlin.

I want you to, to dominate me basically. 'cause I'm sensing that you, have a knack for this somehow. And you are sensing it too. And now you're like, okay, I'm getting ready to do for this experience. What was the experience like?

Nicolle: Well, first of all, I made it very clear to him that this was my first experience, and I think that's really important for. You know, maybe new dommes to think about, which is that true dominance is not performance, and [00:26:00] it's certainly not the performance of perfection. I think there's a misconception that in order to be a domme, you have to be perfect and you have to come from a place of the utmost confidence.

And that's not necessarily true. Matter of fact, if you try to perform dominance, you're likely drawing from things outside of yourself that you've seen. And you are in many ways just acting dominance, but you are not embodying it. And that in many ways means that your attention is inward on yourself and not outward on your submissive.

But you can think of dominance as attention outward. And you can think of submission as attention inward. So when you're a domme, your attention is going outward. It's not on yourself.

 submission actually feels like you, the spiritual experience is actually going deeper into yourself. And I think that's [00:27:00] in many ways why people can. Find truths that were maybe hidden from them, um, through this experience of submission, because it's a deep experience of trust and surrender, and that's done relationally.

So that's, that's done in the presence and the attention of another person. And there's something about being witnessed in your desires, um, and your desires coming true, that allows for that, that, that inner, that inner work, that inner experience. Um, so, you know, I go to Berlin and I've made it clear that this is my first experience with being a domme.

And you know, I just kind of said to myself, only do what feels true. So don't pretend, um, and don't act like what you think a domme should look like. And if I had to be honest, I would've probably. Almost acted maybe aggressively, or I would've maybe acted masculine in [00:28:00] many ways. Because I think for myself at that time, and for many women, we think of, we think of dominance and we think of maybe the, the, uh, the archetype of a, of a, you know, strong, confident, assertive, potentially aggressive man.

But dominance can be really soft and it can be really feminine, and it can be direct, but it doesn't have to be harsh. You know, sometimes it can be, and that's what's required and that's what's desired by the submissive, but it doesn't have to be. And so finding your unique expression of dominance actually is a process of finding what feels true to you as a leader.

And so my, my first act of dominance was something that felt true to me and quite simple. Um, I had asked him to, you know, put me on the [00:29:00] top floor of this beautiful hotel, the Michelberger Hotel in Berlin, and put himself in a shoebox, essentially at, on the bottom floor. And so I wanted to first Este establish this feeling that, you know, I was the queen in worshiping and I was above him.

And, you know, he was below me. And that if, if I wanted something, he had to come all the way up. To, to give it to me. And so I was reading on the bed, I was reading this book of erotic poetry on the bed. I had just had a bath and I, I left the water in the bathtub and I texted him and I said, come upstairs.

And you know, I had already kind of unlatched the door, so it was just resting on itself so that I could be like perfectly laid out on the bed reading this book when he came in. And, you know, that felt fun and playful to me. And he walks in and I don't look up from the book and I just say, drain my bath water.

You know? He says, yes, queen Nicolle. And he goes over to the bathtub and he sticks his [00:30:00] hand and kind of the cold water at that point. And he stands there and he waits for the bathtub to drain and. Mind you, he had to come up quite a far distance to get to my, my hotel room. And then he says, you know, is there anything else I can do for you?

And again, without looking up from the book and making eye contact with him, almost as if he's inconsequential, I said, you no, that will be all you can leave now. And there was just something so like he wanted so much in that moment and I just didn't give it to him. And I proved in that moment that I was controlling the pacing and that my confidence was coming from not needing to prove to him that I could be this powerful domme, but that I was, I was in control of how much he got and when, and you know, as soon as he left the room and the door latched behind him, I just like put my face down into the book and I was like, oh my God, I did it. But I remember this [00:31:00] power moving through my body of just being like, that was me just using my voice. And it was, it was such an exciting moment for me because again, I wasn't trying to act in any certain way. I was just being what was, what was true to me. And you know, we, over the course of our time in Berlin, we, you know, we tried a bunch of different things and then we came back and we were both living in Toronto at the time.

And it was really the beginning of what was quite a long and beautiful, um, relationship. And, you know, that's the difference between a, a lifestyle dom, which, which I was for many years, and a professional dom. So a professional dom will typically work out of a dungeon. Or they'll do, you know, house calls or they, they'll have a private practice at their own home, but they take on clients and, you know, those clients are with them for a set amount of time.

Let's call it an hour. They have a negotiated pay. They have, you know, negotiated [00:32:00] activities that they'll do or they won't do. Um, and then in many circumstances, those clients of theirs will be forbidden from contacting them outside of the hours that they're specifically getting paid for. A lifestyle dom typically means that your submissives are more integrated into your life.

 some doms have like full on romantic relationships with their submissives. Or for me, I had my submissives pay me a flat rate per month and we were, we would text. I don't wanna say constantly to give the impression that I was available at all times, but we had more of an ongoing connection and ongoing dynamic and communication.

 and there are pros and cons to both.

 one of the downfalls of life's of being a lifestyle dom is that the lines can become really blurry between what constitutes.[00:33:00] 

A actual relationship and what is, what can be contained in the box of, you know, BDSM or a, or a transactional relationship? So, you know, one of my submissive in particular really fell in love with me and once we transitioned out of me being as dom and him being my sub, we, we had a bit of a difficult time actually just being friends.

And it was kind of this awkward, strange experience where he naturally wanted to fall into being my submissive. And I was like, we're not doing that anymore. And so that would just be some something to consider. If someone is seriously thinking about whether they wanna be a lifestyle dom or they want to be a professional,

Yeah. Got it. So another question I have in that case, with this person for example, were you then? Like, okay, like now that I'm doing this for you, I want you to start paying me. Were you also having sex with him or was it [00:34:00] just um, kink play dynamic?

Most doms, and I can say this with confidence, generally don't have sex with their clients.

 there is a misconception that BDSM centralizes sex. And I would actually say the opposite, which is that it decentralizes sex, specifically penetrative sex. And for many people, that actually creates a pocket of eroticism and safety because sex, even in a sexual context, is not the point.

The point is intense sensations, complex role play and playing with power dynamics that allow you to vocalize your desires and have them met with enthusiasm. So if I were to boil it down, I would actually say BDSM [00:35:00] is. More about play than it is about sex.

Got it. So, so yeah. So tell me about this, how your relationship evolved with this submissive. and also what was it that you were getting.

Fer: From this, experience, right? what was it besides eventually the money, but you weren't thinking about that at that point, that was so enticing for you.

Nicolle: I started charging right from the beginning, so I never allowed us to slip into something where I wasn't receiving financial compensation. At first. It was things like trips and food and having my rent covered, and then it was all of those things plus. Just a flat rate per month. That made me feel like whatever time and attention I was giving this person was worth it for me.

So that's on the financial side of things, but I think you bring up a really good point and ask a great question around what [00:36:00] else was I getting out of it? And that kind of brings me to some of the points that I talk about in my book where I outline some of the ways that BDSM can make you a better leader and a better lover.

So. This applies to someone who is both in the dominant role and the submissive role. So one of the things is that you have to become brutally honest about who you are. So BDSM doesn't actually allow you to stay vague about your needs or to hide behind charm or good intentions. Often we move through life and our relationships with.

A certain sense of ambiguity in many of our dynamics, many of our relationships, many of our conversations, but b, DSM and specifically dominance and submission. You are forced to play very distinct roles, so there can be no collapsing of the roles. almost think of it as two poles, like two [00:37:00] magnets.

It's positive and the negative. You need someone to be in the dominant role, and you need someone to be in the submissive role.

 this lack of ambiguity is actually really important, like I said, because it does not allow you to stay vague. You have to know what you want. Or sometimes it's not necessarily, you don't, you don't necessarily know what you want, but.

You know what you would like to potentially try and that might inch you closer and closer to really having a breakthrough, or you know what you don't want. And knowing what you don't want is, I would say, almost more important than knowing what you do want.

I always like to think of. First of all, one the things that you don't want. I always like to ask, well, how do you know you don't want that? Now that that's not me pushing back against you and saying, oh, I think I know better, but I want to be clear on how you know that it's something you don't want, you.

Did you have a traumatic [00:38:00] experience with this particular activity? Is this something that, you know, you saw happen somewhere else and you, you, you recoiled? Like did you see it in a movie and it didn't end well? Like what, what is, what is actually there that's prohibiting you from wanting that thing?

Because what's really interest is interesting is sometimes there's shame there and sometimes moving towards the shame. Is actually what is going to help you unlock something within yourself that is either unhealed or is deeply erotic and can be potentially very fulfilling. Now, trust is built over time and a dom has and the ethical responsibility to listen to the submissive, and this is why we do negotiation.

Um, the second thing I'll say on kind of knowing what you want or what you don't want is rather than just listing through all of these activities, oh, [00:39:00] do you want to be flogged? Do you want to be bound? Do you wanna be gagged? Do you, you know, all of these things, the activity is really just the stand in or the.

Physical expression of a sensation that this person might want to experience. So rather than just listing off, do you want this activity or this, try to find out how they want to feel or how they don't want to feel. Is humiliation an erotic sensation for them? Do they actually enjoy the sensation of shame in their body?

 all of these are sensations in the body that we've deemed taboo that we then move away from, but for some people shame and is a sensation in the body that they actually find deeply arousing.

I'm one of those people for me, shame. Feels more like a weightlessness and it, it shuts down my kind of [00:40:00] overthinking mind, and it allows me to almost have a suspension of my identity. I, I call, I call many of these activities in BDSM, the, the temporary suspension from the burden of selfhood. And this is kind of a, a classic way of looking at masochism as well.

Which is that when you experience humiliation in real life, it's a threat to your social status. But when you experience the sensation of humiliation in a safe environment, in a scene, you still get that like. Whooshing feeling of being exposed or, you know, the ground opening up and you kind of sinking down into it.

Are you like wanting to shrink yourself so tiny that you could hide beneath a shoe? Right. It's like, for some people that sensation in their body is actually the very thing that allows them to have an outof body experience or have a [00:41:00] enter into an altered state where. There's no negative long-term repercussions in their actual life, but they still get the sensation of humiliation that they crave.

 I like what you say about, instead of focusing on the practical aspect of it, thinking about the psychological aspect. Right. I, I think personally I could say. I want you to edge me and then, force me to, to do a particular thing that I don't, I don't like to do in normal circumstances.

Fer: Right. But that, that's not really telling anyone why I find that arousing. Right. But then when I like got into it, I'm like, okay, I find it arousing because I like the idea that you are like forcing, like not forcing me, but that. You make me so horny that I do anything for you, especially things that I would normally not do if I wasn't that horny.

So it's interesting too because in a way, even though, I'm [00:42:00] the submissive, I'm also kind of like challenging the the dominant to be like. you have to make me horny enough for you to earn the power to do this to me. Right. So, understanding that, I think it's more important, and to your point too, of how you can do certain things that you cannot do or that, you know, in real life, it's a completely different experience.

Right. I deal with like guilt a lot, right? So if I do something that I'm not supposed to be doing because it's not good for me or whatever, or because it doesn't feel like it's honoring me, I feel guilty in regular life, right? But in a play space, if I did something where I feel like this person made me, again, air quotes.

Do this thing that I wasn't supposed to. And like I, I'm, I'm being, you know, a bad girl that's arousing. 'cause again, there's no repercussions to it. Right? But in real life, there are repercussions to it. So I totally resonate with, with what you're saying.

Nicolle: And in, let's say something along those similar [00:43:00] lines is, you know, the brat is one expression of submission. What does the brat really want? The brat enjoys the dom almost proving themselves to the brat. The brat wants to submit, but they, they want to almost feel submission through being punished.

or it actually looks like being ignored. if a sub enjoys the sensation of rejection or neglect, it's a sensation that they like in their body.

Again, a typical taboo thing, a taboo emotion that were meant to ignore, or in real life, if you actually experience neglect and rejection, these aren't good things, but in a sexual circumstance through BDSM, through a scene. If you like those feelings, then if your dom ignores you, [00:44:00] you get to experience neglect and rejection in, in a safe container of knowing that they're actually giving you the feeling that you want.

And now this, and this is where I think that BDSM in many ways can be incredibly therapeutic. You likely. Won't subconsciously go create scenarios in your everyday life where you get access to that feeling. Because in many ways, you are getting your fix of that feeling in a safe container.

Fer: Oh.

Nicolle: So, right. So there's this, there's this Jungian quote that's, that's popular.

It's bastardized often, and I'm probably gonna do it myself right now. And I also, I've read in a couple of places that it's actually not even him who said it, but. Let me give you the overview, okay? People, and then you can go find the direct quote. But it's this, if you are not aware of yourself and your own desires, [00:45:00] especially the ones that are taboo, that we tend to repress, you will subconsciously create scenarios in your life where you can get access to that feeling, and you will call it fate.

 this is what I actually think the power of BDSM is in its, let's call it therapeutic application, which is that there is finally a place where you can get that sensation that you want, and you're not gonna go out and create a situation that then just gives you that feeling that you're actually truly craving because it's erotic to you.

And what's erotic is. The feeling of being alive. Many people will say eroticism is life force energy. Arousal is life force energy. So imagine if someone has this kink where they enjoy the sensation of rejection, humiliation, guilt, shame, all these things, if they don't have access to that [00:46:00] sensation in their body, they're going to be.

Rejecting a part of themselves that truly makes them feel alive.

you stop fighting parts of yourself.

 BDSM gives those parts somewhere to exist without taking control, uh, over your life or leaking out sideways, And so when you stop judging those parts of yourself, and equally, if not more powerfully, someone else witnesses you in that and doesn't judge you.

 those parts of yourself stop running the show, right? so in many ways you actually become more stable. You could say you become more whole. Um, you do not necessarily become more extreme.

If anything, you know yourself better because you accept all sides of yourself. And so, you know, this is BDSM can be looked at in many ways as shadow play. You're learning to work with your shadows, you learning to work with the [00:47:00] parts of yourself that you've rejected.

Fer: But why would someone want that? You know? Because for example, with the sub that you were talking about, maybe, well, I don't know. I'm making assumptions here. But maybe he wanted that because he had that, because maybe he encountered women that made fun of his penis or something or whatever. Or boys when he was young and then he like kind of like got used to that in a weird way.

So then wouldn't you say like, oh, but isn't it and again, I'm kind of playing the devil's advocate 'cause I know that that's not quite. What it is, but isn't that kind of unhealthy that because he maybe got used to that feeling of humiliation. Now he needs to stay in that place and even hire someone to humiliate him.

You know what I mean?

Nicolle: this is something that I talk about. In my book and on my substack, um, especially because one of the things that I focus on is the therapeutic potential of BDSM, and [00:48:00] that all goes back to the question, could it ever be a form of therapy in and of itself?

This is a great question. So there's a few ways to look at it. One of them is if he, imagine if he had no place to. Experience. not humiliation, because remember that in this circumstance, in many ways, there was a celebration around his tiny penis, right? So, so counterbalanced to the general feeling that he got when again, he looks quite masculine and so he would attract women who then assumed that he would have a.

Large penis, certainly not a micro penis, let's just put it that way. so the disappointment that he would see on women's faces over and over and over again, either when he told them ahead of time or when they were in a sexual situation and they discovered it themselves. Imagine if he didn't have a counterbalance to that sensation.

[00:49:00] Imagine if he didn't have a place to go where he could have his micro penis celebrated and honored as being a. A giant clit. Imagine if he never had a place where he could experience a sensation in his body related to his tiny penis that actually made him feel good about it. That means he would just be condemned to go his entire life with this one association with it.

The second thing is being able to feel, um, powerful and like it's a choice. So. He can't change his micro penis, but he can change how he sees it. And through BDSM, through these scenes, he's able to, in many ways, take control over something that is otherwise uncontrollable by allowing himself to be exposed to a space and to an identity.

Because [00:50:00] remember when he's. Sissified. He's not the powerful CEO with a small penis. He's this beautiful woman prancing around, an expensive lingerie who has a enlarged clit that everyone's jealous of because it can experience more pleasure than anybody else.

Fer: All right, so it's like a fantasy world that takes you away from your regular persona, right? Which is why you see a lot of super successful CEOs wanting to be. Submissive because in their regular life they're always in charge. Right? and it's finding that, contrast to desires that they might have because they cannot experience them in regular life.

You know,

Nicolle: Exactly. And, and, you know, while we're on this topic, you know, let me go through a few of the things that make BDSM therapeutic.

So. We're not pretending that BDSM in and of itself is [00:51:00] therapy, but many people who engage in BDSM would say that it has been therapeutic for them. And these are some of the things that I hear the most. So you experience vulnerability that doesn't actually end badly. So for a lot of people, being open or exposed has historically led to shame or rejection or harm specifically for survivors of sexual assault.

There is an incredible power in a scene that reenacts the traumatic experience, but they are in control of changing the ending, and they get to experience a sensation in their body of the ending being differently of their voice, being honored, and of their body being safe. So in BDSM, that level of vulnerability is planned.

To the T and taken very seriously. And when it's done well, the body gets a new message. That [00:52:00] intensity does not automatically mean danger and that they are in control of their experience. And that can quietly, subtly through repetition or through one amazing experience, undo a lot of old patterning around trust and closeness and autonomy.

And the last one is that there's power in chosen intensity and chosen identity.

So in many ways. We all have some sort of identity imposed upon us, or an identity that we have through life raised ourselves up into, you know, you brought up the kind of this trope of the CEO who longs to submit. Well, there's a reason why, that's so familiar and it, it really is true that, high caliber men tend to wanna submit not all the time.

There's also. Many other men across the economic spectrum who also desire to [00:53:00] submit, and it has nothing to do with wanting to relinquish control or power only because that's something that they experience all the time. There's other really powerful benefits to, a man in particular submitting, but strong sensations and deep focus can shift your mental state.

So the difference is choice. How you associate to yourself, you enter into a scene on purpose. You enter into a dynamic on purpose with boundaries, uh, negotiations, trust, consent, and you come back safely. For people who have felt overwhelmed or powerless in the past or feel stuck in one identity that really matters and can make a big difference.

It restores a sense of agency. It allows you to experience a different side of yourself, and you're not at the mercy of your emotions or your past, but you're actually participating in the reinforcement of this new expression of self that you might not [00:54:00] have access to in your everyday life.

Fer: Thank you for explaining all that. we could really have like four episodes on this topic 'cause I have so much to say.

Nicolle: given we can't do four episodes right now, let's move on to your non-monogamous journey. 'cause I know that you're currently in a monogamous relationship, but you did try. Polyamory. So I'm always curious because even I myself have doubts even in this moment of whether I want to be poly because yes, in theory I love connecting with different people and all of that, but the emotional labor that comes with it.

Fer: Can feel like a lot and felt like a lot to me, and especially after my recent breakup with my secondary partner. So I'm curious what your experience Was like being someone who's obviously very, into exploration, a very curious person. into BDSM, you have all these traits that you might think like, oh, you know, poly would make sense for you, but you've made this conscious decision not to choose [00:55:00] it even though you had.

 desire at some point to experience it. So, so tell me how your journey into ENM started.

Nicolle: Well, I met my primary partner while I already had two submissives, and at that point in my early exploration of being a dom, it felt that I had discovered a part of myself that had been missing my entire life. And so the thought of giving that up, you know, he saw the DS dynamics as. Relationships and wanted me to end them and commit fully to him.

But at the time, and maybe this should have been a warning sign early on, but my intuition and my instincts were saying, that's a bad deal. You don't want to give up this part of yourself. It would actually feel like cutting off a limb.

And at the time, [00:56:00] I most definitely felt that it was actually part of my sexual expression and that giving it up would be like cutting off a limb and. Again, the second part was that there was a part of me that fundamentally didn't trust them.

And so it was actually terrifying to me to think about putting all of my sexual attention and devotion into this relationship with this one person. And so I pushed back against it and therefore. set the tone for the rest of the relationship, which is that we were going to be open. I actually didn't identify as poly for many years in that relationship.

I didn't feel that I was capable of having my heart truly love more than one person. For me, again, with the lifestyle domme work, it still felt like there were these boundaries, especially around. Emotions and, [00:57:00] and commitment to these people. But my primary partner really leaned into poly. And so, he would come home every few weeks and tell me he was in love with a new person.

 meanwhile, on occasion I would feel an arousal with somebody, or we went to a lot of play parties and I hosted a lot of play parties as well, and that would be kind of my place to explore and and play. But that's really as far as it went for me. What is more interesting, I think, is the tension that I eventually started to feel in that relationship when I did.

Meet a couple that I fell in love with and they did polyamory so well. I always say that, I got the gold standard, I got the premium experience of being in a polyamorous throuple, and it actually illuminated to me [00:58:00] just how toxic, my primary partnership was, and so I was living on the absolute edges of these two extremes.

One, just a terrible experience with polyamory. Everything that you could do wrong in a polyamorous relationship. I experienced with this person. Um, I certainly didn't do everything perfectly either. I can take responsibility for that, but there was a lot of pain and a lot of drama all the time. And then I also got to experience myself in this really, really healthy dynamic with this, uh, couple with a man and a woman and that dynamic.

Actually helps me realize that I didn't want polyamory at all. It's funny, it wasn't the, it wasn't the problematic dynamic that did it. It was actually the wonderful dynamic that did it because I said to myself at the end of it, if this is the best that it can be, [00:59:00] and this is amazing, why do I still feel like it's actually not for me?

It's kind of like getting your dream job. Then realizing that you've worked your whole life to reach this point, and you get there and there's something missing and you realize it's not for you now, what a blessing to have the experience of actually getting what you thought you wanted only to realize you don't want it, and at the same time, what a, what a heartbreaking and shattering and difficult thing, especially if you've spent years in that kind of situation or working towards that.

Um, it really can threaten your sense of identity and almost your inner compass to feel like, you know, how did I, how was I led astray by myself for so long? Um, but polyamory gave me, in many ways excellent communication, language, a much sharper kind of relationship [01:00:00] toolkit. You know, I learned how to name needs.

I learned how to negotiate boundaries, so. When I picture, but, but when, again, when I picture the version of love that actually makes me feel anchored, um, it's not a life of constant negotiation with multiple partners. It's not trying to pretend that jealousy is somehow a, a base brute emotion that I'm meant to bludgeon out of me through exposure, like.

I'm not, I, I realize that I'm not a person who wants to obliterate hierarchy, that I actually want to be the number one person in somebody's life as a non-negotiable. Um, and so, you know, you use the word conscious. When you asked me this question, you kind of set it up for me. I think there is something.

Really [01:01:00] beautiful about conscious monogamy. So not just prescribing to monogamy because it's the thing that societally you think that you're supposed to do, but making the actual choice to enter into a monogamous relationship. Um, there's a psychologist named Dr. Tammy Nelson and she talks about the new monogamy,

She, she kind of argues that that monogamy in and of itself is not the problem unconscious monogamy is, and so that many couples inherit a script and they never discuss what. Fidelity actually means, they don't talk about betrayal. they don't really talk about how waning desire will be handled long term.

They don't talk about rupture and repair. Um, and what she says is that unexamined monogamy is actually the issue that erodes a relationship. Long term, but that new monogamy is a conscious and negotiated devotion, and that it's couples who are actively [01:02:00] designing their agreements and then periodically checking in on those agreements rather than assuming default roles that can lead to an expression of monogamy that is actually exciting and healthy, and that can be fully sexually exclusive without feeling like you are missing out on.

Either, erotic exploration or some sort of, deep connection. 'cause I, I really do believe that that's a big draw for a lot of people into polyamory, which is that you can kind of follow these threads of desire and arousal to their eventual conclusion rather than feeling like you have to be in a conversation with someone and it's getting kind of flirty.

Fer: And then you have to go, oh, by the way, I'm. In a monogamous relationship, like we cannot continue. so yeah, there's pros and cons to both.Yeah, no, I, I totally relate to that. it's like, is it worth the effort for you? Right? I think that, [01:03:00] as you said, the issue is when you don't examine it, but often we examine it and then we're like, it doesn't make sense. Monogamy doesn't make sense. I'm attracted to other people, let me act on that attraction.

But then the reality of acting on that attraction yes. Comes with. Sexual exploration, self-discovery this and that. But as you said, it comes with constant conversations. It comes with jealousy, it comes with a lot of things that you also have to consciously choose if you want to be poly, and a lot of people. Choose and that's great, but it's not for everyone. And a lot of people try thinking it's for them. And then once they're in there it's like hard to kind of go back 'cause you're like, I've already had that freedom. I've already had that opportunity to connect sexually with whoever I want. And going back feels like going back into a box.

And I do feel like. There are some people who find a way to make it sustainable. But the other friend, the other day, a friend told me who another friend who's also having doubts about Poly, was like, what [01:04:00] person do you know that's doing poly well, that's not their whole identity. And then I thought about it and I was like, you know what?

That's kind of true. Like the people that I can think of that are doing poly well, it's not like it's their whole identity, but I can tell that they spent a significant amount of time. Doing that. and that time is a time that you can use on other things. Right. So for you, for example, so was this couple non-hierarchical I like to be in a hierarchical relationship 'cause I feel like otherwise every single event or whatever, it's like who's gonna go or every single thing.

It's a conversation and I'm just like, I just like to know. Who's my person, who's person I am, and we don't need to, we minimize the amount of conversations, which are already a lot, you know what I mean? But what was the, if you could maybe tell us a little bit more of like your experience with that and with having those conversations and realizing, actually I don't, I can't be bothered to be nonhierarchical or poly to begin with.

Nicolle: Well, to first comment on what you just said,

 I think there's an [01:05:00] appeal to chosen monogamy as well as that it does reduce the variables while increasing depth, and it also does it without pretending that there is one correct template on how to do a relationship. So if almost we looked at monogamy, the conscious monogamy as as a, as customized monogamy, I think that might help some people recognize that there is such a level of depth that comes from someone's true.

Devotion and attention on you and only you. Um, there is an instability naturally that comes with knowing that your partner could walk back through the door after a date with somebody and tell you that, you know, they're really, really into this person and they wanna continue spending more time with them.

Um, the dynamic, to answer your question, whether or not it was hierarchical, so, you know, I had my primary partner, so in many ways he was. Prioritized. Then this relationship with the [01:06:00] couple, when I met them, they were already in a relationship with each other. She was his submissive, but they also had a romantic partnership.

And then I kind of began having a relationship with him and then kind of started having a relationship with her. And then we were like, wait a second, why don't we all just have a relationship together? But then she also had a relationship with another man that they had been in a relationship with for like 10 years, and then he also started to have other partners too.

And so it's like just. I wasn't part of their spreadsheets, but they had scheduling spreadsheets and, and, and I think that that is, that that can really work for, for some people. And you know, polyamory does require strong emotional skills, emotional regulation, communication boundaries, clarity, honest self knowledge.

A secure attachment foundation for the most part, but. Under [01:07:00] modern stress, people are already overwhelmed and yes, it's kind of funny that you say it becomes someone's entire personality. It's like for many people, one relationship, doing one relationship well, and I'm not even talking about kids in the picture yet, but doing one relationship well is already a lot of work.

Now you wanna add in two, three more dynamics and paramours and your partner having another partner and this like constantly shifting foundation. I think it can be. You know, and this kind of brings me to my second point, and I'll preface by, by giving my own story, but polyamory can also become an incredibly seductive form of intimacy avoidance and.

When I finally ended my incredibly complex, difficult, complicated and toxic primary partnership, it left a void [01:08:00] and my submissives rushed in to try to fill that void. And my other partners, you know, tried to fill that void, and I just realized that. This void was, was something that I had been avoiding and it wasn't going to get filled by these other relationships because these other relationships in many ways were a byproduct of what I was avoiding, which is that I was fundamentally unhappy and distressed because of all of the reasons why I was unhappy in this primary partnership, and that it was doomed to fail. So I do think that polyamory can, in many ways serve as a loophole, um, for avoiding core intimacy work or confronting a truth that the relationship is not working and that you are actually looking outside of [01:09:00] the relationship to get access to all of the things that are, that you're not getting with this one person.

Fer: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. we'll have to continue in part two, but given that we talked about BDSM that we talked about non-monogamy, my last, I guess double question to you is where do you stand today? you mentioned before we, we started recording that. You are not a lifestyle domme anymore. I don't know what your sexual dynamic, and I think that's another misconception, right, that people have that lifestyle dommes are.

Doms in their sexual dynamic with their romantic partners. And I don't know where you fall in that spectrum, so I'd be curious to hear a little bit about that. But more generally, what does your relationship to BDSM and to monogamy look like today? And also given your journey with those two, what would you tell to.

Our listeners, I usually say, what would you tell to a [01:10:00] polycurious person, but I guess in this instance, what would you tell a polycurious person or a BDSM curious person?

Nicolle: so where I'm at with BDSM is that. Although I'm not practicing it as a lifestyle domme with submissives, it's still very much part of who I am, not only my dominant self, but also my submissive self, which I had the great pleasure of experiencing in a really healthy way with that couple that I was in a polyamorous relationship with.

So I had never explored submission before. In a way that felt deeply fulfilling and nourishing. And so I didn't actually even know the, the power of it. And so, so I actually think that people who, um, are submissive also make excellent, uh, doms, uh,

Fer: That's good news to me.

Nicolle: Right. Good news and people who, who, who start off as subs or who [01:11:00] have only been subs tend to feel unqualified to lead.

And in reality, the opposite is often true because people who have submitted understand what unsafe power feels like.

 so hesitation moving from being submissive into being a dom is, not weakness. It's it's actual ethical awareness of the responsibility of holding. Such power and leading. and so even though I'm not practicing these things in a paid context, they're still very much integrated into not only who I am, so how I move through the world, even when I'm not in a sexual scenario of dominance and submission.

But it's, it's now something I've been able to bring into my relationship. So. my current partner, who I'm in a monogamous relationship with, that feels deeply fulfilling to me. we experiment and play with BDSM and I get to explore, uh, submission and in many ways [01:12:00] I'm leading him, but from the submissive standpoint, and so I'm helping to elevate him into.

Being a dom and it's like, it's like build a bear or like the perfect customization of my ideal dom because it's like he's learning it through me and I wouldn't have been able to teach him what it is that I actually want in a dom if I wasn't doing it from the submissive standpoint. And then also as a dom, I have that.

Awareness and knowledge. And so I can speak to him from both sides. I can speak to him as a submissive and I can also speak to him as a dominant. I can really teach him and he's super receptive to it. And what's really fun is I've been able to be very candid about that. I need access to that dominant side of me.

And so he is really receptive as well to exploring submission. And so what I think is going to end up happening is both through our. [01:13:00] Mutual openness and through my knowledge and his curiosity and, and eagerness in, in many ways, we're going to create a really cool switchy dynamic. And what's so fun about that is it makes me feel that in one relationship I can access.

All sides of me. So it almost makes me feel like I'm dating more than one person because we get to go into these kind of other modes and we get to play in these other modes, and it just becomes so fluid and, and natural.

Fer: you know, our structure is monogamy.

Nicolle: and we, our communication is so good that, you know, we share with each other if we feel a little bit flirty with somebody and. Again, whether or not we stay purely monogamous for the amount of [01:14:00] time that we're together, and you know, right now, as far as we're both concerned and the way that our lives are going and the devotion we feel towards one another, we're speaking as if we will stay together forever.

And so with that level of devotion, we also understand that life is long, and maybe there'll be some adjustments along the way, but creating a foundation of deep trust through devotion, through monogamy is what we both feel is right, right now, especially if we ever want.

Side quests. Um, so that's where I'm at. And in terms of BDSM and in terms of my relationship for somebody who is poly curious, a, a conversation that I find myself having with most people who do ask me about. My journey with polyamory one person in the relationship tends to wanna open up the relationship first.

Rarely I've found is it, um, you know, both people kind of come to that [01:15:00] same conclusion at the same time. And of course, this is people who, let's say, start off in monogamous relationships, and then one person wants to change the agreement, and that can be really devastating for the person who's on the receiving end of that.

To hear it because they might feel to themselves, well, am I not enough? Am I not worth it? Um, and they might feel a sense of lack and that can be really hard and it can cause somebody to really wanna shut down. I think the beginning of that conversation really needs to start with. Reassurance and intention.

Like what is the, what is the true intention of wanting to open up the relationship? And if the intention is not to funnel more energy, love, and eroticism back into the primary relationship, you really have to make that clear. Otherwise, it can really come across as deceptive. [01:16:00] So. You know, why do you wanna engage in polyamory?

Like is it that you really, do you wanna just sleep with other people? What kind of boundaries are you going to create around emotions and whether someone gets attached or not? When you say polyamory, you are saying multi love. Are you then desiring to have full on relationships with other people? Do you expect to eventually move in with them?

Like, how can we make sure that we feel we're on the same page as this progresses? I think that's a really important part of the conversation to have is like, is this, is this for us and how will this improve and enhance our dynamic? And how will we navigate? Some of the difficulties that will come up around, you know, jealousy for instance, or worthiness that are, I think, quite natural things to experience, especially if you're [01:17:00] moving from what you thought was one relationship structure, into another.

Fer: Yeah. Yeah. Don't do it. To save their relationship.

Nicolle: No, that's like the equivalent of having kids to try to save the relationship. It's like if you're Yeah, exactly. to save the relationship, you know you need to, you need to be really clear about, and it's, it's, and it's hard and it's scary to be clear. And if it's really that you just want to have sex with other people, you know, if you're bringing this up because there's actually like.

Some guy in accounting that you're like, Hmm, I've been fantasizing about him. I actually wanna experience what it might be like to have sex with this person. Like, just be really honest about that. Um, you know, obviously polyamory and, and, and ethical non-monogamy has come up a lot, uh, over the last few years, especially it's become kind of trendy in some ways.

And so maybe you heard about it and you heard all the good things, but you also need to know the [01:18:00] risks. The last thing I'll say on this particular point is that it is possible to get cheated on in a polyamorous relationship or in an open relationship. And that can be incredibly isolating, it's something that happened to me in my primary relationship.

It's incredibly devastating. You know, I found out that he had been talking to this woman behind my back for like seven months, telling each other they loved each other, making plans to go, traveling together, sending naked photos back and forth, whatever. It was devastating because I'm like, dude, like

Why are you doing this? Like we're supposed to be able to have this open communication. There's literally no reason for you to hide this from me. And I felt like I couldn't talk to anybody about it because it's like, oh, well you're in an open relationship, aren't you allowed to do whatever it is that you wanna do?

So I kind of kept quiet about it and felt. Really isolated and almost ashamed of the fact that it had happened. just know that without clear [01:19:00] communication and boundaries, you can feel betrayed in your open relationship.

In the same way that you would getting cheated on in a monogamous relationship.

Fer: Yeah, a hundred percent. Well, thank you so much, Nicolle. It is been so great to have you. I'll make sure to add all of those links to your substack, to your Instagram to your book when it's out, everything in the episode description.

But thank you so much for being with me here today.

Nicolle: Thank you.