JJ: [00:00:00] I also absorbed a lot of deep homophobia in Australia. So as I've sort of been exploring a queer side of myself, that's also been something I'm trying to uncover and, excavate.

it took a while for me to actually even take the label queer because I felt like, am I even allowed to use this label? Like, is it fair? because I'm very straight passing. but I decided after reading a bunch about it, about queer imposter syndrome and stuff, to, to realize that, that I feel comfortable in taking that.

 even though I may not feel anywhere near the same amount of attraction to men as I do women, because I do have this curiosity and interest, and I do really, really enjoy being in spaces where men and women are together. And I love playing with men in those spaces. I just really enjoy, I like it.

Fer: I feel right to me that, that we all can do it.  Hi everyone. I am Fer relationship coach and host of Polycurious, the podcast for those curious about [00:01:00] non-monogamy. And today I have my friend JJ with me. We've been friends for years and as you'll hear in this conversation when we met. JJ was in a monogamous relationship, and I could actually tell that that wasn't the type of relationship that he needed, and I've seen his progress throughout the years.

 it was quite the journey to come to terms with what he wanted and realizing that as much as he loved this person, his non monogamous identity was something that was truly important to him and a non-negotiable in some ways. And I wanted to have him on to talk about this evolution from feeling shame around his desire to connect with other people. To being fully expressed in who he feels like he is, and not just with non-monogamy.

We also talk about his queer side and how [00:02:00] he's also gone from, a homophobic culture in Australia where he's from I mean there's homophobia everywhere, but going from that culture To realizing that he is actually attracted to men in certain settings and his experience wanting to explore that space.

And I love that we got to talk about that because I feel like we meet a lot of bisexual women, women exploring their bisexuality is a lot more supported and normalized in our society. Although of course there's still stigma. But we rarely meet bisexual men, or at least openly bisexual men. And it's important to have examples out there so that if you are a man who might have noticed that in certain settings you feel attracted to other men, even though you might have considered yourself hetero, heterosexual, your whole life, you have someone else to relate to and learn from.

So I hope that whether you have been someone [00:03:00] that. Had a long process coming to terms with their non-monogamous self or with their queer self that you identify with what JJ has to say today.

 If you like what you hear and you want more head onto my Patreon where I have some bonus content.

From this conversation where JJ talks about his experience falling in love with two people at the same time, experiencing NRE or new relationship energy for two people at the same time, which is something that I didn't even know was possible. And it was interesting to hear how JJ dealt with that and also how throughout the years he's eventually realized of something that I've also been reflecting on quite a bit, which is that it is a lot easier to date non-monogamous people or people who have. Partners as a non-monogamous person for a variety of reasons.

So if you want to hear our conversation around those two topics, head on to my Patreon. You can find the link in the show notes and [00:04:00] also if you are interested in learning more about my coaching services, if you've been struggling with non-monogamy, with opening of your relationship with jealousy. You know that you can come and talk to me for free.

You can book a free exploratory call so I can learn more about your situation. I can tell you more about how I work with couples and we can see if I might be able to help you. Okay guys, let's get into it, shall we? Here is my interview with my friend jj

JJ, welcome to Polycurious. I'm so excited to finally have this conversation with you. I know bits and pieces of your story because we've been friends, I guess, for years now, but I want the whole picture, so I can't wait to get into it.

JJ: Yeah, it's really lovely to be here Fer, we've been talking about it for quite a time, it's nice to finally be on the podcast.

Fer: yeah, I'm, I'm very excited. So, take us back to, you know, your earliest explorations of [00:05:00] non-monogamy. when I met you, I think you had been somewhat recently re divorced. You had one partner, and I know that at that point, there was. Maybe a mismatch on what you wanted in terms of the openness on of your relationship.

And I kind of witnessed a little bit of the struggles or the, the kind of coming to terms with your non monogamous identity. And then today, then you were, I think, single for a little bit. And then today you have another partner.

But it sounds like it took you a few relationships and a few years to get to that point. So I'm interested in hearing about the journey. So let's start maybe from the beginning. I don't know if the beginning is when you were married or even before that, but when did you realize you had an inclination towards non-monogamy?

I.

JJ: Interestingly, yeah, I, I had a memory come up not that long ago. I was reflecting on an experience that happened when I was 19. I was [00:06:00] in, in the north, of the state that I grew up in, a place called Byron Bay, which many people have heard of in Australia. And I was there with my aunt and uncle celebrating the new year.

 And I just randomly met these two girls and, um, two very different girls. So they were really good friends and we ended up just hanging out, spending, you know, let's have a drink, let's go to the beach, let's hang out. And then on maybe the second or third day of seeing them, just meeting up with them.

 at one point I sort of, I took one of them aside and, and I, you know, I was like, oh, hey, it's the kind of, have some feelings for you. And she's like, oh, I, I have some feelings for you too. But, you know, unfortunately my friend, she also has them, and I was like, well, actually, I have feelings for her too.

I remember that moment, in my mind I was like, I'm just gonna be honest here, because like, why shouldn't I? In that moment, the original girl was a bit taken aback, and I think it's just like the whole thing kind of got thrown off and, nothing ended up evolving from it.

Um, but I remember that her reaction to my statement was so the recoil was so visceral that I was like, huh, okay. I guess that's not like I knew in my mind [00:07:00] why she would think that way, but inside I was like, but is that so weird? Like, is that so unusual? Does it take away from, from our connection? I didn't think so.

So I think that was an early, an early experience where I was like, huh, okay, this is perhaps not quite, not quite an acceptable way of being.

Fer: That's so funny. I thought this story was gonna end with, and then we had a threesome, but

no, it wasn't quite, no, not then.

taken aback.

JJ: No, not quite, not back then. and from there, I think I learned that I, I kind of took that lesson on it and was like, okay, I guess this is just, you know, it's just not, that's just not the way. And I didn't, had, didn't have any role models in Australia of any openness in any way, shape or form.

 it wasn't until really into my marriage where, you know, where my wife just all of a sudden declared I'm poly after we came back from Burning Man, she just like, put it on the table that I was just like, whoa, you know, I, and, and that was, you know, like 15 years later after that, that experience back in Byron Bay [00:08:00] and.

 she'd been very jealous actually. She was always very jealous.

But after her revelation at Burning Man, which really just came about maybe on, uh, some kind of, sub substance journey, um, all her jealousy disappeared, which was really bizarre to me. It was really, really bizarre. But I was happy. But it was bizarre and it actually opened up a conversation that probably went on for about two years of her really doing her best to insist, uh, becoming that we should become poly or really that she wanted to explore on her own.

She didn't want to do things together. Like she wasn't really interested in that. She was really like, Hey, I just want to go out and I wanna date people. I wanna do that. And, you know, I was very taken aback. I didn't think it was, it was kosher to like change the rules of the marriage and, and the way things were.

She was actually quite insistent on it. And it wasn't just like, oh, hey, can we maybe do this? It was like a, we should do this. Like this is, this is it. This is who I am. We're gonna do this. When are we gonna do [00:09:00] it?

 It was an ultimatum

Um, and so I felt like her insistence on this was like a changing in our agreement, you know? And it was really quite upsetting to me. And she kept pushing. And in fact, the person she found that she wanted to explore with was actually like one of the few people that I think was able to trigger me. You know, and just the choice of person.

Like, you know, there was just, there were attributes to this particular guy that I was just like, you know, why this particular type? But isn't that the way I think, you know, and to this day, that's still, that, that personality type, um, is still kind of triggering for me. It's a sort of like a type that I, I find threatening, even though I've reconciled with it quite a bit.

Fer: What? What's the type, if you don't mind me asking?

JJ: Yeah. It's, uh, usually like successful artist. I think someone who's done really well in, in, like, in art and just taking quite a challenging path and really just, it could be a film director, it could be, you know, it could be a painter, it could be a writer, it could be a, a stage actor or this case a celebrity [00:10:00] chef, you know, like someone that, that just is just making it going their own route.

And for whatever reason, I just found that really, I, I was just, you know, really quite, uh, frustrated. I was like, do you have to choose this person as your, your first, you know?

Fer: Well, but you say for whatever reason, but is it because you know, you feel like envy of, you know, maybe you have an artistic side that you haven't explored and you're like seeing this person that's artistic, that's made it, or is it more like, oh, you find these people pretentious or something? I don't know.

JJ: no, no, no more the former. I think you're, you're spot on with that. I think there's a sense of like, oh, I, you know, I studied music after programming in my background and I decided to go back to programming because I didn't want to do the slog of music. I just felt like it was just such a big amount of work and had a lot of respect for people who are able to navigate this, this modern world, you know, in the world of, of art.

[00:11:00] And uh, I think something like a celebrity chef is also really quite cool. And he was very cool guy actually. And, um. Yeah, I think definitely it's more about envy, not about pretension. I like, I met him and he was lovely. I was like, you know, I met him a few times, but I just felt like, ugh, this, this person's just triggering the, just triggering me so badly.

It doesn't have to be this person, you know?

Fer: Well, I'm glad you, I don't know if you had that awareness at the time, but I'm

glad at least you have that awareness now.

JJ: I did, but I think, uh, you know, my, it's bit embarrassing to admit it now, but I think back then the, the thought that I had, I had to myself was like, it's, it won't be fair if we start openly dating. You are gonna have so much more connections than I ever will because we're married. And so, in my vision, in, in my world, and, you know, 2015 in, in, or 2016 in New York, I was just of the opinion that who would want to go on dates with me or do anything with me?

Like, why would anyone want that? [00:12:00] Because I'm not gonna marry them. Like, that was the kind of. You know, very simplistic vision that I had in my head, everyone just wants to be partnered up and that's all anyone ever wants. So, once we finally did we did start exploring, I started realizing, oh, actually a lot of people, a lot of people really like this actually.

And this, uh, it surprised me in many, many ways. but it took quite a bit to actually get through that, that first initial hump. And in fact, it wasn't through agreement. It was actually for her deciding to do something without my consent and me finding out later, and then realizing, I feel like my hands were tied and it was kind of forced.

So definitely not the right way to start, but as soon as we did, as soon as we went out, to a party and, we were with a mutual friend, and it was kind of allowed, I was sort of given permission to, to connect with her if we both wanted. I just felt this immediate sense of just, this. Overwhelming power of just, relief and like, oh yeah, this is actually what I am, this is who I am, and it doesn't [00:13:00] change me. And it, and it felt so good to be seen and cared for by being that way.

Fer: Yeah, it's so interesting for me to hear how you were resistant and reluctant and you were the person that was like, we don't need to do this, because I know you and I, I know that you are like, have a totally different mindset now and I know that that happens sometimes that people who.

Feel very good being non-monogamous. That doesn't mean that they feel very good about their partner being non-monogamous.

Uh, but yeah, it just shows, you know, the transformation and how you, you were saying when I was 19, I had that inclination, but then I was shown that that wasn't an okay. So then I kind of like switched that and then almost kind of was indoctrinated into that, that that's not the way, to the point that when someone did that to me, I was the one putting them a stop, you know?

 it's just interesting to hear, but as you, said, when you finally [00:14:00] allowed yourself to not judge it and just lean into it, you're like, oh, actually I'm really into it.

JJ: Mm-hmm. Yeah, it was a, it felt so wonderful to be seen in that space.

It felt like a bit of, um, a bit of an awakening, like with the people that were around the sense of like, oh, what if this is possible? Like, what if people could be this way? Like, you know, I think for some of our friends we were could of put up as this a married couple that would, they're making it work.

Um, and it ultimately, it didn't work because there were other extenuating circumstances in our relationship around like mental health and, and, and substances and the such. But, um, for a time then I think it was like, it was a really exciting period and it definitely for good or ill, it took her to kind of forcing the point for us to get there.

I, I think I did internalize a lot of narratives, particularly in Australia.

 back when I was growing up. And [00:15:00] so, uh, yeah, I think I really internalized a lot of those messages and this idea that, oh, my significant other is not satisfied, really triggered a deep feeling of not being enough inside me.

Fer: Yeah. Yeah, and I think a lot of people can identify with that. feeling, especially when their partners are with someone that has the qualities that you wish you had. Right. Like you were saying those, you know, being a successful artist or creative or, whatever it is. but sounds like once you were at that play party, you realize maybe the appeal of it.

I mean, it sounds to me, and also from what I know about you, that yes, you like the emotional part, but I think from previous conversations, I think it was also partly the sexual liberation where, and I don't know how much of this is true, but probably when you were growing up and I mean the story that you share and, and felt like attracted to to [00:16:00] people, you had to, you know, repress that.

So I don't know if you had any of that.

JJ: Yeah. I mean it, I mean, it runs deep. I think in the years that followed from being 19, um, and, you know, I'll admit this, that I was a faithful partner to all my partners in like, to maybe to the, you know, the spirit, I guess, of the agreements. But, you know, in the, the language that I use now, it definitely wasn't like I, I found myself in a number of times when I would connect with someone and sure we wouldn't kiss and, you know, we wouldn't be sexual in any kinda way.

But there was definitely some erotic energy. There was some erotic charge happening, and it happened to me many times in many relationships over the years while I was monogamous. I'd find myself in a situation with someone, and I just could feel that erotic energy coming up. And for me, it actually, it's quite hard to separate the erotic from the emotional, I don't know, I don't think I'd call myself demisexual, but I do think for me, there's a [00:17:00] strong correlation, it, emotional attraction with, with erotic energy.

Um, it's hard for me to get too erotic with a complete stranger. Um, but it was al always quite kind of tied up, uh, in relationships. And I think also, you know, I I, I also absorbed a lot of deep homophobia in Australia. So as I've sort of been exploring a queer side of myself, um, that's also been something I'm trying to uncover and, and, and excavate.

So I feel like I've just absorbed a lot, you know, in the many years growing up in Australia, in a very privileged position being for, in all intents and purposes, a straight white male. And sort of absorbing all these lessons and then only the last few years having the privilege to be able to actually take some time and say, oh, actually what, what if this isn't true?

Like, what if I am open to more people? What if I am open to different genders? What if I am open to being with multiple people at once? And yeah, it's been quite a beautiful, uh, discovery and a [00:18:00] journey, which is, I met you and as I was kind of embarking on that journey, which is probably why perhaps some of this earlier part of the context, uh, might be a little surprising, but I was very much on the straight narrow for many years.

 and, I came out of that relationship very clear in myself that I, you know, I am probably, or at the very least, open, ethically, non-monogamous.

I felt too much, um, pride in the period when her and I were being open. I felt so much pride in who I was and so Sure. And so, right, that I knew. I never want to go back to this, to the space of, of being, you know, monogamous. And yet I found myself, fell myself into a relationship very quickly as I was still reeling from this, this sentence marriage.

I found myself in a relationship. That, um, while it ostensibly started being open, uh, kind of eventually became too tough for her to sort of stomach. So we'd agreed to, [00:19:00] to become monogamous. And so I kind of entered back into a monogamous state, uh, maybe six to nine months later, and, uh, kind of had to reconcile with that, which was its own type of challenge after having quote unquote seen the light.

You know, I loved her so much that I was prepared to, I was prepared to make this agreement, like, to, to, to go into the space of monogamy again. And ultimately, a few years later, we decided to separate and we still love each other and we're still very good friends. But I would say the main reason was because she, I very clearly understood that that was the way I was, and there was just too much, uh, trauma around her trying to be poly, but not, you know, not just not being that way.

And her. She created so much friction in her life by being around so many of our friends who were thinking it was the right thing, and then trying to force herself into it being like, actually, I don't think I can do this.

Fer: Yeah, let's talk a little bit about that. [00:20:00] I, I think both topics are fascinating, right? The topic of trying to force yourself to be non-monogamous and realizing that you're monogamous I think that's very common in our community, right? That it's so common that other people are doing it and you see people doing it somewhat successfully. You also see people doing it wrong, but it is normalized to a point where it almost becomes shameful if it's difficult for you and, and then you feel like, oh, you know, am I too insecure to handle this?

And why can I not just be confident in myself enough to allow my partner to, do this and that. And, you know, I, I truly don't think that non-monogamy for everyone. And, I think this common friend of ours, your ex, she's a wonderful, very enlightened, very mature person. And that doesn't mean that that she is, aligned with non-monogamy and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

But then [00:21:00] there's the other part of like, wanting to be monogamous, which we can talk about because we do have you here. and then realizing, no, I, I simply can't. And, I talk about it in terms of, whether non-monogamy for you is a preference or if it's an identity. Right? And I feel like. For some people like yourself, it is an identity. And then trying to be monogamous might not work. But I think for other people, I think interestingly, even though, you know, I have the podcast andI'm non monogamous, I don't necessarily feel like I would, you know, like I need to be non-monogamous or, or like, I couldn't be in a monogamous relationship.

I think in my situation, because of Seth's lack of interest in like kink and sexual exploration and all of that, you know, I think I'll have some like level of non-monogamy, I don't know, forever, but for a long time. But I think if I was with someone who was more sexually exploratory, I might [00:22:00] not. Need or like feel like, okay, this is like a part of my identity that's like really important.

Right? But like for you, it seems like it is. And I think that sometimes it, it is okay if, if you don't feel like it's part of your identity, sometimes it is totally okay to decide consciously, even though your preference would be to be non monogamous to decide, you know what, I really like this person and it's not their thing, so I'm going to be monogamous even though I would rather be non monogamous.

And I think that's a fine choice, but some people like yourself can't do that because you realize in, in that process that no, it's not just a preference, this is who I am. So I'd be curious to hear more about like that process. you said you first started opening up and then sounds like she realized that it wasn't her thing and then you had to close.

And I think I, I met you. Probably like right after you like closed the relationship. And I do remember, like when I met you, you were like, clearly [00:23:00] like flirting with me. And I was like, kind of almost taken aback when I like realized that you had a monogamous partner. I was like, wait, but why is he so, you know, so forward with me.

So I think as, as you are sharing, it was also like a lesson for you to have to go from that exploration being open, being able to openly flirt, which sounds like you were also doing in the past, even when you were in monogamous relationships of like, maybe you didn't actually cheat in the act of sex, but you were still, you know, flirting with other women.

Right. So, so

how did, how, how was that process for you? Well, first going from trying non-monogamy with, um, I don't know, should we, should we name her something?

JJ: we could just call her Bethany, if feel I can make up a name.

Fer: okay, sure. So, yeah, so you started with Bethany. What was the process of her realizing or like you trying to be open and her realizing, [00:24:00] okay, this is not for me, and then going into monogamy. Tell me a little bit about, about that.

JJ: Well, I think, I think you hit the nail on the head when you said that in our community there's not really any, wasn't really any resources for somebody who's struggling. With trying to be non-monogamous. And this was back in 2018. And I think what had happened was Bethany and I, Bethany knew my wife.

She was there when we were together. And then when Bethany and I started connecting, it was still sort of under the, this, you know, under this some sort of guise at polyamory. But at that point my wife and I were separating and it wasn't a, it wasn't a good situation. And I think one thing that has to be mentioned is Bethany was, was quite a bit younger than me and she was like in her mid twenties at the time.

And she had this ideological view that polyamory was right. You know, it was correct. It was the, the mature way of doing things. As I'm sure you know, people have heard. And she had [00:25:00] said that vocalized that a number of times. And I think as we started falling in love and as the community around us was espousing as these values of how good is it to be open and stuff, I think she struggled this internal battle of like, oh.

You know, I need to be this way. I need to be this way. But clearly wasn't feeling okay at the same time, as you say, I was very flirty, which is something I always have been quite flirty in terms of erotic energy. But now I felt, well that period I felt even more like permissive and, oh, I'm allowed to be in erotic energy.

This is who I am. I felt so free to be that way. Um, and Bethany was doing her best to like be okay with it. hadn't, actually been connecting with anyone else, but I had been flirting.

We'd been talking about things, we'd been talking about connecting to other women together. We'd been talking about dates and it hadn't actually happened yet, and I wasn't pushing it. And then it would all sort of snowball to a point where Bethany took me aside and said, Hey, I, this is [00:26:00] causing me so much stress.

Like she was really upset. And she was like, like almost, you know, in traumatic state, like shaking and just like really activated. and we, it felt to me like, Hey, I really need to do something about this. And, yeah, decided that that to go monogamous, like, you know, and I think that I had had some hopes that perhaps we would explore together as a couple.

And I'd said it at the time, and I think in her state she felt like, okay, and she'd said, oh, she was open to it. But in retrospect, I think she was just honestly too traumatized from the whole, uh, trying to internalize this state of wanting to be open when she didn't feel that way. She'd also had her own traumas from, um, from college experiences and hookup culture in the college.

 I felt like I could put my stuff aside and focus on our relationship and I think. Unfortunately, this has been a habit for me in general as a partner, and I think I have in the times gone against my own [00:27:00] boundaries when I feel like my partner is perhaps less emotionally stable than I am.

And it's something that I've become more aware about. Um, but it's still, uh, I realize I have these, I have this side of my personality that's willing to, to put it aside and say, Hey, I'll just, I'll just stop this. Now. That being said, um, that being said, now these days I would really struggle to be in a relationship that was monogamous.

And I think, but the main reason why is because what unfortunately happened with Bethany that sort of continued when I was quite young and that 19-year-old boy, is this idea about being shamed for being who I am. You know, like, oh, that's wrong. Um, she told me a number of times, oh, she, she kind of po she'd poked fun at me and like played and said like, oh, I was just into everyone.

And, um. Yeah, I really felt like I was layered on a lot of shame about being that way. And to this day I just, I, if I was ever to go into a period of monogamy with [00:28:00] somebody, it would, I would only do it if that person had shown me that they really love and respect that side of me, and that's part of who I am and part of who they love.

And there was perhaps another reason why we needed to go into a monogamous state.

Fer: I wonder how much of it was actual judgment and how much of it was, the emotions that came with the way that you were acting. maybe there's nothing wrong with you being non monogamous, but maybe there is something wrong with you, like flirting really aggressively when you're in like a monogamous relationship.

Right? So like, maybe, maybe she was commenting on the way you were going about it. You were also hearing it like a judgment of the lifestyle overall or the orientation overall. And also maybe there was some judgment because, you know, we all grew up in a monogamous culture and it's easy to, to default to judging that.

 I think it was probably like a mix of [00:29:00] things, right? Like you were feeling judged because maybe it had taken you so long to break out of that and you were like, I don't want any judgment. I want to be free. and the way that she was communicating her hesitancy about it made you feel like she was judging you.

Yeah, I mean, I was, I was coming out effectively and just, you know, I guess like. Say a lot of, you know, gay men when they come out, for example, they, they tend to have a lot of energy. You know, I had a lot of energy for about being like, who I am and, and, and, and I wasn't coming out sexually, um, in terms of my orientation at the time, even though I was, I was starting to become curious about my queer side, but I was really just coming out about being okay with who I was.

JJ: energetically I was flirting and, you know, doing a lot, but in terms of actual sexual connections, like it was very minimal. In fact, I don't think there was anybody I really connected with very much at all that, uh, on my [00:30:00] own. but energetically I was a real mess.

Like, I was just like, yeah, wow. Which is, you know, when I met you it was like very unclear, not very communicative, just, you know, just throwing it around and, uh, very confusing for Bethany and for me and people around me,

And so I was flirting very aggressive with people, but at the same time I was telling my partner about it and I was being very open and I was so happy. I was like, oh, I can, I can do this now. And my partner and, and when her and I got together, I think she was a bit young and naive thinking, that this was what she wanted.

 And, it was just way too much, you know, for her, for sure. And, um, I think the one big mistake that I, uh, or big lesson I learned from it is really just communication.

Like, I really, we hadn't communicated until that period clearly what our needs were. And so we got together in like say February, and then by August it really came to a head, you know, we, we just sort of had been operating under this, okay, we're open [00:31:00] idea, but never really talked about any agreements as such.

And, um, you know, and I had been sharing completely with complete abandon all the people I was attracted to, and I was encouraging her to share those with me. And even that conversation was like very triggering to her.

Fer: Yeah. I think it's also how you go about it when you, when you feel that, right? Because you're like, oh, we're open. I can share about all of my connections. And, and this is like the ethical way of doing it, because hiding it would be unethical, but then sometimes the ethical thing to do is maybe not to share too much.

Right? And I think that sometimes we have a hard time being in the middle. 'cause we're like, oh, we've been repressed for so long and now we're free. So then we kind of go to the extreme and then it takes us like a little while to kind of like. Reach the middle and understand that it doesn't need to be full.

A hundred percent honesty or, or hiding absolutely everything. But there's a middle ground of like being sensitive, when and how you bring [00:32:00] things up.

 Tell me a little bit more about the breakup or before you broke up, but like kind of realizing, okay, this is actually an identity. I can't box myself into being monogamous, even if I love this person. And even if, I, I appreciate their relationship.

Well, we, in the last, uh, um, about a year of our relationship, um, I had started to open a sense of, come back as a topic to some degree, and I'd been encouraging, uh, Bethany to, you know, if she felt a desire to connect with someone to do it. We weren't, uh, living together at the time. We were in a different, we were even actually long distance for, for a period.

JJ: And, um, uh, we sort of had some agreements that were fairly clear. And, um, you know, things were sort of happening. She'd been in, in, uh, Berlin a little bit. I was in Mexico. Um, and then, under the, what I thought the auspices of the agreement was, I actually [00:33:00] ended up connecting with a couple that we know,

 and I thought it was within the agreements we had. And, it was a gorgeous evening, a really beautiful connection. It was actually one of my first threesomes and was the first time being with a male female couple, which was really quite beautiful, really incredible experience.

 particularly because the man is straight. And I think for him it was really just a celebration of his partner and like wanting her to feel like the queen that she is and. When I told Bethany later about the situation, she flipped out. She was really upset. I had indeed gone beyond some of the agreements that we had.

 I thought I was kind of within the boundaries, but I definitely went beyond. But I think it was the way that she spoke about it, the way she tried to shame me about the act, about what I did, really poisoned something inside me. 'cause to me it was like, it was so beautiful what we shared myself and the couple, it was such a, a beautiful [00:34:00] experience that, you know, I, I remember when I was flying back on the plane, I remember crying, just thinking about the experience.

And, and then, when later she was really upset about it, Bethany, I just, I knew inside it would just, I was very clear to me. I'm like, this thing, this thing was beautiful and I'm sorry that you can't understand that. And I'm, obviously, I did the wrong thing. Something inside me had really shifted in that, that moment.

It was just too, too incredible and too meaningful for me to ignore it.

Fer: Mm-hmm.

JJ: that, you know, as the relationship sort of, we went on, um, it was about three or so months later at my birthday that we finally, um, when some of my friends decided to give me a naked massage, um, and, uh, you know, apply me with, with some, some ketamine, uh, that, uh, decided that she decided watching it and watching all the people in my life who I'd been inviting in, who were sex positive, sort of take that energy, erotic energy and play with it.

[00:35:00] She just decided, I can't, I don't this, this, it doesn't make sense for us to be together anymore. And we, we both could have agreed and that then started, yeah, I guess that started my slut era, if you will. Eventually, you know, took a little time to settle, but, uh, yeah, then I really felt like, okay, now I can, I can, I can be out and.

Fer: Yeah. It does sound like that energy was coming out of you to the point that you both realized, you know, it's not something that. Can be contained. And similarly in her case, her reservations about it weren't, something that could be changed either, right? So you realize the limitations of your relationship in that moment,

 but tell us about your slut era.

JJ: Well, it took a little while to get going, I think. Uh, it was a, a little, uh, I think I came in pretty excited. Um, you know, I sort of came back into New York. I was pretty excited to like start connecting. But what was, [00:36:00] uh, we had actually had an agreement, uh, Bethany and I, to not connect to any mutual friends, for, well any, any mutual friends kind of would require a conversation.

But even then, anybody within the wider community to like lead at least for six months or so, or longer just to like, let it percolate. To let it settle. so I think I was initially like a bit, I was a bit frustrated 'cause I felt like I knew a lot of people that I felt the vibe with and I wanted to like, run with it.

I think that was like this over eagerness. Um, which ultimately led me into like some, some situations where, you know, I just think it didn't really hit the mark. You know, I'd see someone and we, we'd sort of talk and connect a little bit, but it just wasn't hitting the mark. And I think it took, it took quite a few months of me traveling and being other places to sort of come back and get in a better sense of like where I was at and internally.

 but one thing I did find, and as I started going on a number of different dates is like I started struggling to, I had to like actually start taking notes [00:37:00] because I was sort of trying to see it like quite a few people. And I actually found that it was actually hard to keep track of, of like what people's interests were and, and, and everything

Fer: Or what they liked sexually.

JJ: Yeah. With that like sexually like, and it was like, I actually felt like it was actually kind of important. I wanted to really make sure I got all the minutia of like little details of, you know, of this, that and the other. And I think, um. I'd also at the same time been sort of curious about men. And I started, seeing, another couple, another sort of, but an open poly couple.

And that sort of opened up a door for me of, of exploring, uh, with queer men, which is really interesting. Um, it's been its own

Fer: was a a male female couple where the man was bisexual.

JJ: Yeah. interestingly actually, her and I started first and she asked me, when we connected, she'd asked me if I would be interested in seeing him as well. And I was, and so we ended up managing a situation where I had a relationship [00:38:00] with just her, but I also had a relationship with both of them, which was an interesting, I mean, interesting sort of thing to, to tackle, you know, trying to figure out and negotiate that.

 I also had a situation where, uh, two lovers of mine actually became lovers themselves. Then the three of us also had our, our own thing. So that was like kind of an interesting, interesting sort of chapter to negotiate.

 lots of things happening simultaneously in this chapter. Mm-hmm.

Fer: Yeah. So tell me about your first, well, I guess your first experience with a man was that threesome with the friends in Mexico. But again, he was straight, so it wasn't really, you weren't connected directly, connecting directly with him. So how was your first experience, actually connecting directly with, with a man and, 'cause you mentioned the homophobia that you had.

How did you come to terms with it, overcome that? How were those

JJ: well, what, well, he said it himself, which I really like, is that he said that for him too. He [00:39:00] is. He, he is very queer and very comfortable. His queerness. He said that for him, having a woman around was actually like a sort of type of psychological safety, which I felt the same way as well. it felt easy to connect with a man, with a woman being around.

 and to this day, I haven't actually had very little one-on-one connection with men. And I think I still to this day think, feel that, being one-on-one with a man would like, it feels more like I would have to. I would have to, it's funny, I'm thinking I have to perform. That's the word that's coming to mind.

I dunno if that's actually a word that I want. But, I guess I, I think I have a bit of a people pleaser in me and I don't wanna disappoint someone and generally feel like I am drawn more towards the feminine in terms of energy and, and, and even the fem look. And so I think, uh, and while I've been on a few dates with, with gay men, I feel the sense of like, I don't want to, I feel this reluctance to go too far because I don't wanna lead someone on if it will.

Like, I don't want to kind of be in a [00:40:00] situation and where I, I'm not in full, fuck Yes. And so it's kind of, I don't know, it's been, I, I found myself in situations where I've been a bit hesitant to take a leap of faith, because I don't wanna disappoint someone or I don't want to lead them on.

But it's quite interesting though because, just as an aside, when I think about, consent and the way that I talk to many women about consent, if I believed in the same type of consent myself, I should be able to go on a date with anyone and be very clear about like, here's what I'm prepared to do.

Here's the what I'm not. and yet I still struggle with that. So it's actually given me an interesting perspective onto what I think a lot of women feel when it comes to consent and being with someone not sure if this person will actually adhere to the things that I say. Like, oh, what if in the heat of the moment they want more, what will I do?

You know, I've actually felt that viscerally felt that feeling. I'd be like, oh, wow, that's a, that's a real thing. You, that's of course a real thing, but like, it's, it's really possible. Even if you think you, you are, you might be on, you might be beyond that. I was like, oh no, I can actually feel [00:41:00] that, that feeling myself.

And it's quite disconcerting,

Fer: Yeah. 'cause I guess as a man, you don't really have to think about that, but then when you're with another man. Who

 might have expectations to go farther. And there's all these ways in which it plays out differently because usually in heterosexual relationship, you are in the position that like you are the one who wants to have sex and you are the one who, you know, maybe has to like convince a woman at points or like court her or whatever.

Right. But when you are in the position of being courted and like not sure how far you want to go, it's a totally different perspective. So what is it like that you don't want to, is it like, oh, I'm not sure, I don't know. Have you actually been either been penetrated or penetrated a a man? Is that what you're like not sure if like you want to explore or what is it that you're like afraid that you might disappoint them if you say you are unsure

JJ: It's, it's, it's actually more being [00:42:00] whether I'll be aroused. You know, it's really like, uh, am I gonna really get hard? You know, am I gonna really like, want to do this? because it's almost always been in the company of women and it's always like to me, like when I was first with men. also every time I've, almost every time I think being with men, I've also been with women who find it really hot.

And so there's also that whole other element of the, the exhibitionist in me also really enjoying being witnessed and really being in, in it. Um, I'm a voyeur and an exhibitionist, which kind of handy, so I like, I kind of appreciate both sides of it, but that exhibitionist side of me really loves to be witnessed and, and, and in it too.

And I've found lately later, a lot of the women I've connected to really do love watching men be together, which is really beautiful. Because I love watching women would be together as well. So it's beautiful to connect with someone else who also feels that, to watch some other same sex connection.

 but yeah, I think it's, yeah, I found it. I feel this feeling, [00:43:00] this dis this feeling of not wanting to disappoint the man. I'm not sure that the people pleaser of me.

Would it sort of try to go along with it a bit? If I wasn't a fuck yes.

 you know, a lot of people think, you know, think of dominance and submission, but there's also the, you know, the, the person who initiates and the person who responds, right?

And you know, that that can also be mixed around. The submissive can very much initiate and, and a dominant can be, can be the responder. Um, and there's so much, like, it's so much of an interplay and it's quite a beautiful interplay. Um, I generally like to be the initiator. Um, even though I'm, I'm very switchy.

I still like to, I do enjoy initiating, but. Um, but that role of being the responder, I think of being responded to is, is always a bit unusual for me. It's always a bit like, huh. And I feel I've come to learn as I've started to explore, like slowly with some men, I've sort of realized just what I've found is a lot more of the tops in the gay world or a lot more of those initiators.

And I find them a little like [00:44:00] confronting. I'm like, oh, they're too much. Whereas the, the bottoms are more, more what I would expect. I'm used to with the feminine energy of more of a, a bit more demure, a bit more waiting for me to take action. You know? And I think that's, I think that's a part of it.

And the other part of it is that I think, and I'm generalizing for sure, but I think, if I was alone one-on-one with a man versus a woman, just all things being equal, generally the women in my life are just more attuned to me. I think this is probably the hardest part, is that there are times when I'm maybe not a hundred percent checked in with myself and my own energy, and my feelings, and the women in my life can tell to the point sometimes of being asking me like, Hey, JJ, are you actually okay right now?

And I might be like, oh, no, I'm not. I wouldn't, I wasn't even aware. Whereas I feel there's so, so many fewer men that, that get me on that same level. And so I think I also worry about being in a situation where I'm with someone who just would miss that, that whole attunement piece. You know, I just, [00:45:00] I can't imagine being in too many situations with a, a, a woman who'd be like, oh, you don't want it, but like, you're gonna, but no, we're gonna go this, you know, we're still gonna do this.

Right. I could see that with being with a man who just doesn't get that I'm uncomfortable. It's like, oh, you're still, let's go. We're key. Right?

Fer: Here we are. We've come all the way here. And now you're telling me no. Yeah. It's so interesting, how, as you said, it makes it, it helps you relate a little bit more to women, but also it helps you realize how maybe you are not as a. Attuned to your own boundaries, unable to express them as maybe you thought you were.

 for me. It's interesting because I have a similar situation with women where if like there's a man there, I feel so much more comfortable, but I never thought that it could be the other way around. that like you as a man, you're like, oh, if I have a woman there, maybe it helps you with like the reassurance of, um, yes, as you, as you said, you, you, you like to, you like being watched, but [00:46:00] also if the woman is like, oh my God, this is so hot.

Maybe that also helps you like to like not feel like you're doing something quote unquote wrong. I don't know how that, process of letting go the homophobia has been for you. But I'd be curious to hear. where you are and if there was anything that helped you, because maybe there's some men listening who are like, oh, I think I have an attraction for men, but I'm not very sure.

 what, if anything, has helped you?

JJ: I mean, I think. The couples, like connecting with couples has been like, who are both queer and Polly has been amazing. Like, I think being able to talk about it and, uh, to both of them and witness their journey and be there, the three of us, like, it's been really, I mean, I don't think that maybe that many people will have that privilege of being able to do that, but to me that was really, really, uh, cathartic to about, to explore with them and, and, you know, and make jokes and play and, and, you know, do fun things.

The three of us that you just couldn't do. So [00:47:00] those two people, you know, um, like fun little configurations or scenes or things that we might want to do. Like, okay, now we, you guys gonna be the co-ops and we do this, and you know, and I think it's just like fun things that yes, you can do with, with any gender, but, but you can do like with, with cocks you can do more things or different things, right.

That you might not be able to do. That's just that kind of fun. but I think, I think for me, like I. One experience I had when I was with that couple and I was enjoying like some, some butt play and I was just thinking to myself and the situation, and I just had this sort epiphany. I was like, wow, there's a whole world of pleasure that I just haven't really been getting into.

You know? And why haven't I, like, why, like I just had this strong epiphany, like, why, man, my fear around homophobia is really preventing me from having so much potential pleasure. now I think I do think the world of, uh, this is another type of, there's the, the, the person who's penetrates if you, if you predict this practice this way, and the person who's penetrated, and I have never [00:48:00] really understood or felt the feeling of enjoy, of being penetrated.

I was able to witness watching her with him and watching her like passion for him and actually see it from a distance be like, oh right, I ahuh and like watch her excitement when he's, when his cock filled up. And I was like, what? And I was like, oh yeah. And it wasn't mine. So I didn't feel any self-consciousness.

I was just witnessing. I was like, huh, yeah. Okay. This is super interesting. So I think for me it's been really beneficial to be able to witness and, and instead of see and, and, and see that, get that I guess front row seat to watching. A couple being intimate and be like, huh, okay, I can see why pay potentially this is, this is hot.

Even if I'm not reacting the same way, perhaps it is actually more conditioning and this is the bit I'm,

Fer: them having anal sex

JJ: Well, no, no, no. Anal sex specifically. Like, uh, just, just seeing the way she gets so aroused by his, like, like erect penis and like wanting the, the idea of it to fill [00:49:00] her. Like just like, just seeing the, the erection is such a beautiful thing.

Like she's her look and the look on her eye. I remember this so well. It's like, it's like the look I see with like, like with a wet pussy. It's that like, this like ha energy and I'm like to witness it like that and it's not me being the recipient so I can see it. I'm like, huh. And like, and, and

Fer: trying to put yourself in that, in her

JJ: yeah, and I'm witness, I'm there with it.

I'm alongside it or we're doing it together. Like we're, we're, we're giving moral together and just witnessing how she's. Like how much he's excited. I'm like, wow. It's sort of helping some way reprogram it to me in a way and be like, oh, like this can be super hot. And that has been probably one of the most helpful things to like, as I'm sort of working this through in those situations, I'm with someone who's like totally excited and be in it.

You know? And I think it, that's what has given me a sense of like, okay, well that, that I don't have to perform, so to speak. the idea of being one-on-one with a man, just feels like, I would feel a sense of now I need to perform and if I don't feel super aroused, I [00:50:00] don't know what I'm supposed to do.

 that's the bit that's given me some, some doubt. but on the dates that I have been on, I think that what I've been trying to do is like, try to think, okay, like let me really think about my boundaries and talk about them, communicate them. And that's been really fun and empowering for me at least.

Just going on a date has, it's been a while, but going on a date like last year and just explaining all my boundaries and sticking to them and just having a date for the sake of a date. And that's all it was. But it was really beautiful to be like, why can't I do this? Like, it was really empowering to be like, yeah, I can go on a date and say, Hey, I'm not gonna do anything else other than this date, but let's talk about it.

You know? Let's, let me feel safe in just going on a date with you and nothing

Fer: Yeah. And I imagine also as someone who's new in exploring this, there's a lot to talk about, like, well, to begin with, and I'm curious to hear about this because, you know, when you were saying, witnessing that couple, you're like, oh, there's this whole world of being aroused by a man that's like new for me.

But not only that, like your [00:51:00] G-spot is, in your, I guess you call it your rectum or whatever, you know, like It should feel amazing. Like I, I do like anal sex and I don't even have a G-spot there, so I'm like, oh my God, if I was a man, I would a hundred percent want to try this. And I don't know if you're a top or a bottom or exploring that, but even just having that conversation, right, because that's one conversation to have.

 you need to be very relaxed. I mean, if you're gonna be in the, on the receiving end, but also you need to be aroused if you're going to be the one, you know, the top. So how, how does that work?

JJ: Yeah. I mean, like, I haven't gone into the realm of a penetration with men and, um, and like for me, like the, the prostate hasn't like as good as it has been, as it hasn't, just witnessing the power of the G-spot for every woman I've known. To me, it hasn't felt anywhere near that same level.

Of exciting. However, I'm willing to believe that, that it's partly probably something psychological and that, [00:52:00] um, and like in a lot of the tantra spaces that I've been in, there's a lot of, you know, a lot of tension, a lot of stored in, in the, in the root, you know, in, in the anus. So I think there's, there's probably something somebody be said for me, learning to relax and, and embrace more in that space.

 I've had periods where I've done more than than others, but I haven't, uh, I just haven't cracked the code, I guess,

Fer: sounds like even though you are, you have your, he hesitations around feeling aroused and all of that, you're still like, oh, but I still want to go on dates with men and like figure it out.

So where's that interest coming? Like, or where have you identified like, okay, here I feel very aroused in this moment by this thing? Or like, how, how did you realize, okay, this is something that I want to explore.

JJ: I think it's just, I have this curiosity for like, myself and I really wanna understand what's me and what is my lens like, like leaving Australia when I did, uh, 15 years ago taught me a lot about, oh, okay, [00:53:00] what's me and what is my Australian lens? And then leaving the US or, or like being in the US and then, or leaving New York, sort of like, okay, these are the things I've learned from, from now being in New York and the us.

And so I also wanna understand what is it growing up in a, in a, you know, fairly. Machismo culture of Australia. Like, what have I, what have I taken on that's not really me. You know, what is like, what is my essence and what have I just accumulated over the years? And I think there's a lot of curiosity in me.

Um, and I wanna understand what's, like, I would love the freedom just being playful and experiencing without living in fear. And I, I mentioned homophobia because I, there are just times when I think of like, oh, I love to explore this. And I'm like, oh, like I can still feel a sense of like, fear going to, you know, because growing up it was kind of like a, you know, in Australia it was like sort of a sense of like this brand of like, oh, like if this happens to you, it's, your life is gonna be really, really hard.

So I think like growing up there was a lot of this sense of this fear of like, oh, I don't want to, I don't want to have to be this way because life will really be tough. [00:54:00] Forget all the amazing hot sex that you'll have. You know, there was the, the narrative was actually, that'll be tough. Instead of like, oh, I should be having you, can you have like whatever number org you ever want, or whatever ever any fantasy you come up with, you could probably have it within a week, probably easy to organize.

 does seem like a lot of access to a lot of promiscuous sex. In the gay world that I've seen in the different areas. I've, I've had random people, approach me like at festivals offering to suck my g just random things in places that I'm like, okay, I guess this is, I guess I'm in a cruising spotlight.

I didn't realize it, you know? I think deeply, I'm just drawn to trying to understand something in myself.

And it took a while for me to actually even take the label queer because I felt like, am I even allowed to use this label? Like, is it fair? because I'm very straight passing. but I decided after reading a bunch about it, about queer imposter syndrome and stuff, to, to realize that, that I feel comfortable in taking that.

 even though I may not [00:55:00] feel anywhere near the same amount of attraction to men as I do women, because I do have this curiosity and interest, and I do really, really enjoy being in spaces where men and women are together. And I love playing with men in those spaces. I just really enjoy, I like it.

I feel right to me that, that we all can do it. I often see the freedom that I know a lot of women have to explore with other women. not completely free, because there's obviously a lot of male gaze and the such, but being in a society where it's, it's more permissioned, I do envy that.

'cause I, I often do wonder, like, what would I be like if I was in a society that was more like the Greeks, for example,

Fer: I've talked about this a lot. How, you know, in society, two women making out is hot, right? So it's almost like encouraged for women to try on their bisexuality in this non-monogamous open spaces, but it's not for men.

It is an encouraged, I'm glad to hear that you've been with a lot of women who find it hot. I think I also at least like [00:56:00] making out and things like that. I also find like men to men, interactions hot, but I think. A lot of men might also have the hesitation of, oh, if I start making out with another man at a play party, will they think I'm gay and not approach me, or will they not be into it?

 you know, there's more barriers to that. Whereas for a woman it's like, oh, if I make out with another woman at a play party, everyone's gonna think this is really hot and, you know, will want to get into it. You know what I mean? it's a completely different

JJ: But, but, but I think that's a great opportunity to change the narrative. You know? I think that's part of what I enjoy in these spaces is, is being able to go into a space like that and be like, well, I feel very confident in my sexuality. I know I'm attracted to, women and men. And I feel like it's kind of a joy to be able to be with a man and be like, yeah, but I'm, I, I, if someone's gonna look at me like, oh, now he's just interested in men, then I feel like they're gonna very quickly be dissuaded of that when they see me 10 minutes later and I kind of enjoy that.

Like that they wouldn't be [00:57:00] able to know. And I hope that we can start to change that narrative where people start to see like, oh, it's not unusual to see a man making out with other men. And I'm feeling like that's starting to happen. It's starting to get to a point in, in certain areas, in sex positive spaces where people are like, oh, we don't really know what someone's into anymore.

Fer: You know? And I think that's excellent. I think it's great, you know? Yeah, and I'm so glad that you are. paving the path for people to feel comfortable and that you feel comfortable doing that. Yeah, I think about it sometimes with the work that I do. It's like, you know, I just posted about my engagement and the next thing I post is like, about my threesome with two men.

I think it like, just by coincidence, I happen to post those two things, close to each other and I kind of have that feeling too of like, hell yeah, I wanna show people that you know, that I can be engaged and also. One, to have threesomes with two other men who are not even my fiance, you know?

But anyhow, thank you so much for sharing that. I did wanna get into the, you know, your by curiosity or your queerness, because I [00:58:00] do feel like it's a trend, you know? And it is not because. all of a sudden people are more queer. It's because all of a sudden there's more acceptance when it comes to men exploring their bisexuality.

So I hope that other men who are listening are encouraged to explore it. And, and maybe if it's, it doesn't, you don't have to go all the way. If you don't feel comfortable, it can just be a kiss. But, you know, just don't block yourself from having that experience because of fears of being perceived in a certain way, or your homosexuality or whatever.

 I'd encourage men to also like, try butt plugs and, you know, try like, but play stuff because it must feel amazing for them if it feels good for us women too. But anyhow, I know that now you are in a relationship with someone. How long have you been together?

JJ: About three years now.

Fer: Three years already. So, you know, I'll have both of you. On Polycurious for another episode, so we don't need to like get too much into, into that. But I'm curious we left the story during your slut era, how did you go from [00:59:00] that to now being in a more, stable but still open partnership.

JJ: Well, interestingly, when I met my partner at Katarina, she was in a relationship with a man she lived with and, after our first date, like she spent the night, at my hotel and I ended up meeting him the next day. and he was a really lovely guy, and I felt like immediately I was like, oh God, this is so good.

To meet someone who's been being, wanting to be open since she was, you know, like in her early twenties. And she's been practicing it for years. And now I even meet her partner the next day. I was like, oh, this is like, I was like, oh, this feels so good. just to go into a relationship from the get go, being open, in fact, by someone who's actually had a lot more experience than I have, because they were already at a point where, she would message her partner and say, I'm not gonna come home tonight.

Like, I, I personally haven't even been in that situation on the other side of the receiving end of that, you've gone through a lot of conversations to be able to get to that point, I think. and then her and I were lovers because I was traveling a lot. And [01:00:00] so it was kind of like a comet lover as I'd come around and we'd go to different places and do different things.

 and she even got engaged and, to this partner and it was actually really tough because I started, I started falling and falling for her while she was. And that was like a lot of reckoning there of like, what is that? 'cause I, even though I'd been solo poly, I still have never really experienced like, being in love with multiple people To this day.

I haven't quite got into that space. And I think I would say I'm like aspirationally poly. there's been a couple of times it's been kind of close. but I haven't been juggling too much, deep loving partnerships.

 but as Kata and I got to know each other deeper, and then, something happened in our other relationship that was unrelated to me, and they actually separated as her and I continued to connect.

We started, we'd been going through the non-relationship escalator worksheet, so there's like a worksheet that, that people do, particularly when they're partnered up, but they're maybe not going through the traditional life. So you, you might answer questions such as, would we be post social [01:01:00] media together?

Would, it's like a checklist, you know, would we go on trips together? Would we meet each other's family together? Would we be interested in living together? You know, all this

Fer: cool. I'll, I'll make sure to add it in the show notes

JJ: Yeah. Yeah. They're really cool.

Fer: out.

JJ: and we did it a few times and every time our relationship shifted, we did it again.

And I remember after she separated from her partner, um, we asked the question again on kids, like initially when we did it, like she was already. Engaged to her partner, they were gonna have family together. So the question of kids was off the table, but then when we did it again when we were in Mexico, and she was away from her partner and we were just, we were lovers partners, but had committed to, being anchor partners or living together.

We both answered like, uh, kind of no to the kids. We both later mentioned we felt like a lot of a pang. Like I definitely felt this like sense of like, uh, like I really want to have children with you, but you know, I said no because I was like, this feels like, you know, we said no before and like, you know, our lives are kind of crazy.[01:02:00] 

But then we reckoned with it and really sat with it and we both thought about it and we're like, actually, like, we think it would be really cool to do this. and from the get go, she's met a number of my lovers and when I had another partner, she was really interested in talking to them. She's given me advice for gifts.

For other lovers and partners, we'll go traveling together. She's like, oh, you gotta get this, gotta get this gift for this person. And I'm like, you know, that's the level of excitement she has for my other relationships, and I've always felt very supported, and very safe in, in being, open and, and connecting to other people.

 And I think generally everything is on the table to be discussed, but not everything necessarily is, is gonna go. But that's the kind of relationship we have.

But we can talk about those kind of topics. And I think like psychological safety is a, is a big deal to me. And I think topics like that, for someone like me that is attracted to a lot of people, like I do feel like it's very important that I can feel safe to even mention something that might seem edgy.

It's like, oh, hey, I'm [01:03:00] attracted to your childhood friend. You know, is this a, like, is this a thing that could be explored? And, and maybe it's a no, but it's not wrong of me to ask, you know, at least to talk about it. You know? And I think those are, like, that's the kind of relationship I've always aspired to having.

 I can't believe now that like if 10 years ago I could see me in this situation, I'd be pretty shocked. And, and that I could even be in this space. Um, so I feel very proud of it even though it does require lots of conversations, lots of check-in.

Fer: Yeah, sounds great. I cannot wait to have a conversation with you two. I know Kata, but I don't know her very well, so I'm excited to hear, you know, what the journey has been like, even though it sounds like, neither of you have had other partners or like deeper relationships or like longstanding relationships, but, but I think that the way that you have been going about the exploration that you do have, which sounds like it's more on your side, has [01:04:00] been.

Great.

We covered so much. So last question for you. What would you tell to a polycurious person?

JJ: I love to, I really love to kind of. Thinking hypotheticals. Like a, a technique I like to do is put myself in hypothetical situations and just play out how I feel. If, if I were to be like, oh, what if I were to, you know, make out with that person in the corner, oh, what if I were to date this other person?

What if I were to, you know, go on a date with a man? I think, you know, I think the, the part of this that I would say is if you could try to really spend some time doing those hypotheticals to yourself and just feel what it feels like inside, when you say those, when you propose those ideas to yourself, if you feel a little jolts of excitement or a little jolts of something, it's worth, it's worth inspecting.

And I think, I hope that you have the [01:05:00] psychological safety in yourself and the people around you to, to talk to people. because I think without psychological safety, it's really hard to sort of, if you feel those emotions, to be able to explore them. but I'd say. Look for, or um, lean on those relationships that you trust, whoever they are.

It could be a partner, it could be a family member, it could be a friend that make you feel safe. And then maybe play with those, those scenarios and talk to someone about, about like how those things make you feel because it truly makes you feel more you and more safe and more alive. Then why not?

It's gonna get one shot. I hope you can take it. 'cause I think it's an excellent thing to do.

Fer: I love that. Yeah. I think that's a very practical thing that people can take away with them because you know, the body doesn't lie.

So thank you so much for that. Well, it's been so great to have you and I'm so glad we, we got to catch up in your journey and I understand much [01:06:00] better where you're at. And I, as I mentioned, we'll have you and Kata, so we'll get part two as well, more detailed, part two. So thank you so much for doing this.

It's been great to talk to you.

JJ: Thank you for, it's so great to see you across the ocean.